176 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

No. First of all, she wasn't a monster. Yes, she participated in some big crimes, but there's no indication that she is or ever was sadistic. There's no indication that she ever hurt people for kicks. In any case, a large part of that was likely just her wanting companionship and acceptance, and finding herself with a talent useful for criminality and in the company of people who could make use of it.

Secondly, change - real change - does not come from sitting on a couch and talking to a therapist for months. It doesn't. Take it from me. People absolutely have all sorts of...revelations, let's say, that take a great deal less time than 6 months.

[Mr.House]

o Ventus wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

It was one of the biggest wtf moments in ME3. A sociopathic cold-blooded killer becoming, within 6 months, a teacher in an Alliance academy. And I really do like her.

To be fair, who isn't a sociapathic cold-blooded killer in this game. While I do agree that the 6 month time frame is short, lots crazier stuff has happened. 

From all the squadmates, only Jack is a killer (in the criminal sense). Thane too if we're counting his profession and technical illegality of hitmen in council space. Also Morinth.

Nobody on any of your squads is a sociopath.

Samara kills peopel in cold blood for even doing the slightest thing thing wrong, even if it's so minor. She was willing to kill a cop. She's a killer.

[Konfined]

o Ventus wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

It was one of the biggest wtf moments in ME3. A sociopathic cold-blooded killer becoming, within 6 months, a teacher in an Alliance academy. And I really do like her.

To be fair, who isn't a sociapathic cold-blooded killer in this game. While I do agree that the 6 month time frame is short, lots crazier stuff has happened. 

From all the squadmates, only Jack is a killer (in the criminal sense). Thane too if we're counting his profession and technical illegality of hitmen in council space. Also Morinth.

Nobody on any of your squads is a sociopath.

Except Morinth, of course.  Arguments could also be made for Grunt and Zaeed after Zorya as well.

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

No. First of all, she wasn't a monster. Yes, she participated in some big crimes, but there's no indication that she is or ever was sadistic. There's no indication that she ever hurt people for kicks. In any case, a large part of that was likely just her wanting companionship and acceptance, and finding herself with a talent useful for criminality and in the company of people who could make use of it.

Secondly, change - real change - does not come from sitting on a couch and talking to a therapist for months. It doesn't. Take it from me. People absolutely have all sorts of...revelations, let's say, that take a great deal less time than 6 months.

Yet she seemed to have no qualms about her crimes whatsoever.  No regrets; no regard. Clear sign of APD.  And therapist comment notwithstanding, if a suicide mission involving death and destruction is some kind of catharsis, and helps her to find her "eureka" moment- then that is all the more a clear cut sign of deeper, serious mental issues.  Furthermore, take it from me.  6 months is not even near to close enough time to heal those wounds.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 03:47 .

[o Ventus]

Konfined wrote...

Except Morinth, of course.  Arguments could also be made for Grunt and Zaeed after Zorya as well.

Zaeed isn't a sociopath. Neither is Grunt, really. I'll give you Morinth.

[SlottsMachine]

The term "sociopath" is thrown around too much these days.

[Uncle Jo]

Mr.House wrote...

Samara kills peopel in cold blood for even doing the slightest thing thing wrong, even if it's so minor. She was willing to kill a cop. She's a killer.

And she didn't become a teacher. Your other "problematic" squademates as well.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 28 février 2013 - 03:55 .

[SlottsMachine]

Konfined wrote...

 Furthermore, take it from me.  6 months is not even near to close enough time to heal those wounds.

But you do agree that the jump from point A to Z is plausible though? I don't think anyone accepts 6 months as a believable time frame. 

[o Ventus]

Mr.House wrote...

Samara kills peopel in cold blood for even doing the slightest thing thing wrong, even if it's so minor. She was willing to kill a cop. She's a killer.

I said in a criminal sense. Samara is a killer in the same sense a soldier is a killer. Or in her case, a Navy SEAL.

Justicars are technically permitted to kill unjust people. She isn't a psychopath.

[SlottsMachine]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Samara kills peopel in cold blood for even doing the slightest thing thing wrong, even if it's so minor. She was willing to kill a cop. She's a killer.

And she didn't become a teacher. Your other "problematic" squademates as well.

Not yet anyway.

[Konfined]

o Ventus wrote...

Konfined wrote...

Except Morinth, of course.  Arguments could also be made for Grunt and Zaeed after Zorya as well.

Zaeed isn't a sociopath. Neither is Grunt, really. I'll give you Morinth.

Badass as they are, they both have clear signs of Antisocial personality disorder.  This can not be denied.  To what degree can be argued, but the two of them most definitely have it.  Samara too, for that matter.  Zaeed's callous disregard for the innocent lives HE himself put at stake on Zorya, Grunts total nonchalant intent to kill Shepard when they first met, Samara ready to cack Anaya as if she had to do her chores...  I could go on, but I hopefully I made my point.

Tacking this on to avoid the double post.

General Slotts wrote...

Konfined wrote...

 Furthermore, take it from me.  6 months is not even near to close enough time to heal those wounds.

But you do agree that the jump from point A to Z is plausible though? I don't think anyone accepts 6 months as a believable time frame. 

Yes I do.  My issue is most definitely with Jack's complete metamorphosis.  That, I do not find plausible at all.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 04:00 .

[Uncle Jo]

General Slotts wrote...

Konfined wrote...

 Furthermore, take it from me.  6 months is not even near to close enough time to heal those wounds.

But you do agree that the jump from point A to Z is plausible though? I don't think anyone accepts 6 months as a believable time frame. 

Of course it is. I never saw Jack beyond redemption. Just not in 6 months and not as a teacher.

[David7204]

"A suicide mission involving death and destruction"? That's completely ridiculous. What Jack did was heroic. She took part in saving the galaxy. That's not a sign of being a lesser person. The exact bloody opposite. That's a sign of being a greater person.

In any case, it's completely hypocritical. You play the game, full of 'death and destruction,' don't you? You participate in it. I'm sure you find it compelling. Are you sure that's not a 'a clear cut sign of deeper, serious mental issues' of your own? And don't give me the "It's fiction, it doesn't matter," excuse; that's a complete cop-out.

No. Any heroic journey is going to have some kind of conflict, and almost always some sort of 'death and destruction.' You could argue that any heroic character has 'deep, serious mental issues' with that argument. And that's absurd.

And you know what? Six months is more than enough. Maybe not for you. Maybe not for your circumstances, and the people you're surrounded with. (Which isn't saying it's anyone's fault.) But that's no reason whatsoever to say that it can't be enough for anyone.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 04:04 .

[Uncle Jo]

General Slotts wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Samara kills peopel in cold blood for even doing the slightest thing thing wrong, even if it's so minor. She was willing to kill a cop. She's a killer.

And she didn't become a teacher. Your other "problematic" squademates as well.

Not yet anyway.

We're discussing about events that happen in-game.

[SlottsMachine]

o Ventus wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Samara kills peopel in cold blood for even doing the slightest thing thing wrong, even if it's so minor. She was willing to kill a cop. She's a killer.

I said in a criminal sense. Samara is a killer in the same sense a soldier is a killer. Or in her case, a Navy SEAL.

Justicars are technically permitted to kill unjust people. She isn't a psychopath.

I'll have to disagree there, whether a person is legally permitted to kill or not has no bearing on whether that person is a psychopath. 

[o Ventus]

Konfined wrote...

Badass as they are, they both have clear signs of Antisocial personality disorder.  This can not be denied.  To what degree can be argued, but the two of them most definitely have it.  Samara too, for that matter.  Zaeed's callous disregard for the innocent lives HE himself put at stake on Zorya, Grunts total nonchalant intent to kill Shepard when they first met, Samara ready to cack Anaya as if she had to do her chores...  I could go on, but I hopefully I made my point.

In Zaeed's case, it more seems he has "Cornered the guy who took my gang and shot me in the head"-syndrome. Not necessarily sociopathy. His other interactions more point to Zaeed just being sort of a d**k than a sociopath.

As for Grunt, you could chalk that up to innate krogan hostility to just about everything, coupled with his tank conditioning. Not necessarily a mental illness. Outside his dickbaggery with Shepard at first, he doesn't exhibit many sociopathic tendencies, especially after the loyalty mission. 

Samara's willingness to kill Anaya isn't really telling of sociopathy. She even admits that she would regret killing Anaya, because Anaya was simply following orders. A sociopath wouldn't really care either way.

Modifié par o Ventus, 28 février 2013 - 04:04 .

[o Ventus]

General Slotts wrote...

I'll have to disagree there, whether a person is legally permitted to kill or not has no bearing on whether that person is a psychopath. 

Not really relevant. Samara expresses precisely 1 symptom of psychopathy, that being relatively shallow emotions. She doesn't kill people out of irresponsibility or impulsivity or egomania. She kills them because they are criminals. She's ME's version of Judge Dredd.

[Aurora313]

Jack has far more rare power during her introduction, though she lacks formal training which makes her quite unpredictable. Miranda may have some good power, but she has a firm control of her powers, and a disciplined style of combat. She keeps a cool head while fighting, but by the same token, her by-the-book style leaves her as predictable to a skilled oponent.

By the time of ME3, Jack has enough control to teach others and Miranda's so preoccupied with trying to find her sister that I doubt she gets as much chance to practice anymore.

I'd say they're about even.

[Leon481]

almondroy wrote...

If Miranda's ME3 arc had nothing to do with her sister and was totally focused on tracking down her father and his connection to TIM/Sanctuary, her content would have been perfect in my opinion.

As faras Miranda goes, I think they just wanted to give her closure with her father. The problem was that she didn't care at all what her father did, so long as he left her and her sister alone. I guess the only conceivable way the Mass Effect writers felt they could give her a believeable motivation to go after her father was for her sister to be kidnapped. I agree it was redundant, but I can see their line of thinking here.

As for Jack becoming a teacher, I can kind of see it. She learned from the suicide mission what it was like to trust and be trusted by allies. I can see her trying to look for more of that in her life. What better place to find that than in a classroom of captive audiences who are forced to trust her?

[grey_wind]

o Ventus wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

I'll have to disagree there, whether a person is legally permitted to kill or not has no bearing on whether that person is a psychopath. 

Not really relevant. Samara expresses precisely 1 symptom of psychopathy, that being relatively shallow emotions. She doesn't kill people out of irresponsibility or impulsivity or egomania. She kills them because they are criminals. She's ME's version of Judge Dredd.

To be completely fair, she admits that she tries not to learn much about her victims to avoid emotions getting in the way.

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

"A suicide mission involving death and destruction"? That's completely ridiculous. What Jack did was heroic. She took part in saving the galaxy. That's not a sign of being a lesser person. The exact bloody opposite. That's a sign of being a greater person.

In any case, it's completely hypocritical. You play the game, full of 'death and destruction,' don't you? You participate in it. I'm sure you find it compelling. Are you sure that's not a 'a clear cut sign of deeper, serious mental issues' of your own? And don't give me the "It's fiction, it doesn't matter," excuse; that's a complete cop-out.

No. Any heroic journey is going to have some kind of conflict, and almost always some sort of 'death and destruction.' You could argue that any heroic character has 'deep, serious mental issues' with that argument. And that's absurd.

And you know what? Six months is more than enough. Maybe not for you. Maybe not for your circumstances, and the people you're surrounded with. But that's no reason whatsoever to say that it can't be enough for anyone.

It WAS a suicide mission and it DID involve death and destruction.  I'm not even going to address that any further.  And no where did I say she was a lesser person.  In any way, shape, or form.  I said she was traumatized due to her experiences with Cerberus.  Clear cut inarguable fact.  And I said that if an individual as psychologically damaged to her degree finds any of this at all therapeutic, then they got issues.  And before you say a word, yes this would include Sole Survivor Shepard.  There is a reason the Military, Law Enforcement, Special Forces, and FedGov all have psych evals.  Because crazies be crazy.   Also, I'm ignoring your little jab at my mental state altogether, as it doesn't rate further acknowledgement whatsoever.

So moving on, Jack didn't do a goddamn thing for heroism.  She didn't take the mission to be a hero, quite the ****ing opposite.  No where was there any indication that she was motivated by a need for the greater good, stop trying to insult people's intelligence.  Her initial desire was revenge and the need to ventilate her anger, plain and simple.  

And go ahead and can point out an instance in which an individual who experienced lifelong abuse, torture, and being forced to kill other people- all in the name of a twisted view of science- and then have them involved in the most grueling of combat situations, and then bounce back 6 months later... And don't give me the "it's fiction so it doesn't matter" excuse.  That's a cop out.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 04:27 .

[Konfined]

o Ventus wrote...

Konfined wrote...

Badass as they are, they both have clear signs of Antisocial personality disorder.  This can not be denied.  To what degree can be argued, but the two of them most definitely have it.  Samara too, for that matter.  Zaeed's callous disregard for the innocent lives HE himself put at stake on Zorya, Grunts total nonchalant intent to kill Shepard when they first met, Samara ready to cack Anaya as if she had to do her chores...  I could go on, but I hopefully I made my point.

In Zaeed's case, it more seems he has "Cornered the guy who took my gang and shot me in the head"-syndrome. Not necessarily sociopathy. His other interactions more point to Zaeed just being sort of a d**k than a sociopath.

As for Grunt, you could chalk that up to innate krogan hostility to just about everything, coupled with his tank conditioning. Not necessarily a mental illness. Outside his dickbaggery with Shepard at first, he doesn't exhibit many sociopathic tendencies, especially after the loyalty mission. 

Samara's willingness to kill Anaya isn't really telling of sociopathy. She even admits that she would regret killing Anaya, because Anaya was simply following orders. A sociopath wouldn't really care either way.

Actually, those are excellent counterpoints.  I can't help but agree with you, and I should have recognized.  Chalk that up to it being late, and my attention being focused on a certain other individual in this thread.  Also, double post.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 04:20 .

[David7204]

Why don't you consider something for a minute?

At the beginning of ME 1, Garrus is a skilled cop, but that's more or less it. By the end of ME 3, Garrus looks to be a significant leader of his people - he has generals calling him 'sir' in an meritocratic society. He's become more than he was.

At the beginning of ME 1, Tali is basically a kid who knows a bit about tech. By the end of ME 3, she's one of five admirals for her people, an expert on the geth, and likely the ambassador not only between the quarians and geth, but the quarians and Council. She's become more than she was.

At the beginning of ME 1, Liara is a timid archeologist who has probably never fired a gun in her life. By the end of ME 3, she's the Shadow Broker, a very skilled warrior, a galactic savior. She's become more than she was. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

Look at that. These characters are all surrounded by 'death and destruction,' and yet, they don't become mentally crippled! Nor do they become psychopaths or sociopaths. They become better. They become heroes. Maybe you should consider that the challenges they face teach worthwhile lessons? Maybe you should considered that taking something worthwhile from violence doesn't make you crazy?

'Therapy' is complicated. I'm sure you've heard of people admitting to feeling the most free when tied up and bound by a lover? Counterintuitive, perhaps. But it certainly doesn't make them crazy or stupid.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 04:32 .

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

Why don't you consider something for a minute?

At the beginning of ME 1, Garrus is a skilled cop, but that's more or less it. By the end of ME 3, Garrus looks to be a significant leader of his people - he has generals calling him 'sir' in an meritocratic society. He's become more than he was.

At the beginning of ME 1, Tali is basically a kid who knows a bit about tech. By the end of ME 3, she's one of five admirals for her people, an expert on the geth, and likely the ambassador not only between the quarians and geth, but the quarians and Council. She's become more than she was.

At the beginning of ME 1, Liara is a timid archeologist who has probably never fired a gun in her life. By the end of ME 3, she's the Shadow Broker, a very skilled warrior, a galactic savior. She's become more than she was. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

Look at that. These characters are all surrounded by 'death and destruction,' and yet, they don't become mentally crippled! Nor do they become psychopaths or sociopaths. They become better. They become heroes. Maybe you should considered that taking something worthwhile from violence doesn't make you crazy?

'Therapy' is complicated. I'm sure you've heard of people admitting to feeling the most free when tied up and bound by a lover? Counterintuitive, perhaps. But it certainly doesn't make them crazy or stupid.
 

Garrus wasn't tortured all his life.  

Tali wasn't tortured all her life.  

Liara wasn't tortured all her life. 

Very important distinction that ought to be considered.  When you pick up Jack, she's already damaged goods.  Very damaged.  Jack was well on her way to crazy town if she wasn't already mayor.  That's a key difference you seem to be intent on ignoring.  I am intent on constantly reminding you of this fact.  Also, being tied up by a lover is in no way comparable to being out in the middle of a warzone.  That was an absolutely terrible attempt at comparison between two wholly different scenarios.  Can't stress how bad that was.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 04:43 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?