176 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Why would that prevent her from learning from Shepard and from her adventures, as Garrus and Tali and Liara and others do?

[David7204]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?

That's a different issue. It wouldn't be possible to write and implement three or four different roles for Jack. You know that. Not great, but understandable and acceptable.

Modifié par David7204, 28 février 2013 - 04:43 .

[Konfined]

David7204 wrote...

Why would that prevent her from learning from Shepard and from her adventures, as Garrus and Tali and Liara and others do?

I never said it couldn't, and I never said it didn't.  I'm simply pointing out that her sudden shift in behavior and character was entirely, unrealistically too fast.  In light of all that she has been through, 6 months is not at all enough time to get over her issues and suddenly turn all Nanny McPhee.

Also, Garrus, Tali and Liara were all already in it for the greater good.  They knew what was at stake, and were already pretty willing to put their lives on the line and follow Shepard practically without question. Not so with Jack.  You would have been better off comparing her to Grunt, Zaeed, or even Kasumi- at least their interests were more or less self serving and more inline with her own.  

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 05:06 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?

That's a different issue. It wouldn't be possible to write and implement three or four different roles for Jack. You know that. Not great, but understandable and acceptable.

. Two roles.  One encourage to be raging psycho/casual sex, and romanced/nodded towards more paragon.  One you encounter on Grissom Academy, the other the Citadel docks/Omega/anywhere thousands of miles away from a school

[Shaleist]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?

It can be at ... ya know.... a service academy.  They are cadets/ensigns trying to learn how to tear folks apart with biotics. You don't hire Suzy McSunshine to teach that sort of course material.


That said, her softening up was a bit much from2 to 3. Oh well, that's what has to be done when courting the masses sometimes.

Modifié par Shaleist, 28 février 2013 - 05:11 .

[wright1978]

Apples and oranges

Jack had a decent mission, a redesign but little content.
Miranda had a weak rehash of a mission, no re-design but much more content.

[Isichar]

They are both winners in my book.

[o Ventus]

wright1978 wrote...

Apples and oranges

Jack had a decent mission, a redesign but little content.
Miranda had a weak rehash of a mission, no re-design but much more content.

It's not a comparison.

[o Ventus]

grey_wind wrote...

To be completely fair, she admits that she tries not to learn much about her victims to avoid emotions getting in the way.

But that doesn't point to sociopathy.

A sociopath (who is a killer) would kill somebody and be unable to comprehend why other people get upset over it. They lack (well, not necessarily lack, but are stunted) the ability to comprehend emotional processes.

Again, Samara is a killer in the same sense that Shepard is a killer. It's simply her job. She doesn't do it out of spite or malice or irresponsibility or anything like that. 

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

To be completely fair, she admits that she tries not to learn much about her victims to avoid emotions getting in the way.

But that doesn't point to sociopathy.

A sociopath (who is a killer) would kill somebody and be unable to comprehend why other people get upset over it. They lack (well, not necessarily lack, but are stunted) the ability to comprehend emotional processes.

Again, Samara is a killer in the same sense that Shepard is a killer. It's simply her job. She doesn't do it out of spite or malice or irresponsibility or anything like that. 

. The only people who fit the bill on ME are Jack and krogan.

[simonrana]

Tricky question OP, since they're about as opposite as can be. Jack's romantic lock-in content was terrible whilst Miranda's was quite well done, but all the rest of Jack's content was pretty good and Miranda's was pretty terrible.

Personally I'd say Jack's got better content overall.

fainmaca wrote...
The fact that her fanbase had increased dramatically becuase she now has hair and looks a lot more conventionally attractive shores up my belief that she got increased common appeal over material that was true to her character.

Source fainmaca? I've come across nothing to suggest that she gained more fans from her ME3 prettification, and seeing how little content she has in ME3 I doubt that anyone would become a fan of her's if they weren't one already from ME2. (Also IMO she looked way better in ME2, her ME3 look is just weird and all over place.)

I sympathise with those that can't get past the unlikeliness of Jack's massive character change in the short time period. You're completely right of course, but I thankfully was able to get over the WTF moment pretty quickly because:

1 ) There is at least some sense in her new role with biotic kids she can relate to having a big effect on her
2 ) ME2 got me used to characters changing in farfetched ways (Liara, paragon Garrus and the VS)
3 ) I was just so happy to see her happy dammit!

[Ieldra]

SNascimento wrote...
The problem with Miranda is how much she should have been, and how little she was.

This. So. Much.

Miranda's romance-related content was good, but I maintain that ME3 mutilated Miranda as a character in every other respect.

Jack's romance-related content was unsatisfactory, and she has less content overall than Miranda, but she was nicely developed as a character. Her new career isn't exactly believable, but the scenario of Grissom Academy is so utterly dramatically appropriate that I can forgive that easily.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 février 2013 - 12:02 .

[grey_wind]

o Ventus wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

To be completely fair, she admits that she tries not to learn much about her victims to avoid emotions getting in the way.

But that doesn't point to sociopathy.

A sociopath (who is a killer) would kill somebody and be unable to comprehend why other people get upset over it. They lack (well, not necessarily lack, but are stunted) the ability to comprehend emotional processes.

Again, Samara is a killer in the same sense that Shepard is a killer. It's simply her job. She doesn't do it out of spite or malice or irresponsibility or anything like that. 

Don't get me wrong. I was agreeing with you. I was pointing out that Samara wasn't a sociopath because she has emotions; her perceived lack of them is her restraining herself.

[Ulathar]

Ieldra2 wrote...

SNascimento wrote...
The problem with Miranda is how much she should have been, and how little she was.

This. So. Much.

Miranda's romance-related content was good, but I maintain that ME3 mutilated Miranda as a character in every other respect.

Jack's romance-related content was unsatisfactory, and she has less content overall than Miranda, but she was nicely developed as a character. Her new career isn't exactly believable, but the scenario of Grissom Academy is so utterly dramatically appropriate that I can forgive that easily.

Mostly this. Personally, I don't like Miranda much, but I agree that her character had a lot of potential to develop that hasn't been used. Jack (who is my favourite squadmate from ME2) on the other hand had good character delevopment, imo and I thought her romance-content was very much in-character, so I don't think it was unsatisfactory. From what I've seen, I think Jack got the better treatment.

[Subject M]

wrong thread sorry.

Modifié par Subject M, 28 février 2013 - 12:23 .

[Steppenwolf]

The fact that Jack-mancers basically only had the option of shoving our tongues down Jack's throat in front of 20 people whether our Shepards are ****s or not after having to endure that stupid, stupid cliche moment of *slap* "You SOB" *kiss* pretty much cements Jack as getting the shorter end of the stick.

IMO anyway.

[fainmaca]

simonrana wrote...
Source fainmaca? I've come across nothing to suggest that she gained more fans from her ME3 prettification, and seeing how little content she has in ME3 I doubt that anyone would become a fan of her's if they weren't one already from ME2. (Also IMO she looked way better in ME2, her ME3 look is just weird and all over place.)

I sympathise with those that can't get past the unlikeliness of Jack's massive character change in the short time period. You're completely right of course, but I thankfully was able to get over the WTF moment pretty quickly because:

1 ) There is at least some sense in her new role with biotic kids she can relate to having a big effect on her
2 ) ME2 got me used to characters changing in farfetched ways (Liara, paragon Garrus and the VS)
3 ) I was just so happy to see her happy dammit!

I'm just going by personal experience. Whenever I've been in the same thread as a converted Jackolyte, their justification for liking the character now is almost always based on physical appearance, hair and clothing in particular.

As for the rest of your post, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I strongly feel that she became less interesting when her new writer tried to fix her, make her more normal. I don't feel that her sudden shift from one life style to another benefitted the character in any way, and rather detracted from her. What happened to the woman who said 'f**ked up or not, the rest of the Galaxy's gotta deal'? Now all we have is a weaker personality that favours compromise over accepting who she is.

[spirosz]

fainmaca wrote...

I'm just going by personal experience. Whenever I've been in the same thread as a converted Jackolyte, their justification for liking the character now is almost always based on physical appearance, hair and clothing in particular.

^

[Steppenwolf]

spirosz wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

I'm just going by personal experience. Whenever I've been in the same thread as a converted Jackolyte, their justification for liking the character now is almost always based on physical appearance, hair and clothing in particular.

^

Yup, 'cause none of Miranda's fans are interested in big boobs, round butts and skin-tight catsuits.

[spirosz]

Konfined wrote...

So moving on, Jack didn't do a goddamn thing for heroism.  She didn't take the mission to be a hero, quite the ****ing opposite.  No where was there any indication that she was motivated by a need for the greater good, stop trying to insult people's intelligence.  Her initial desire was revenge and the need to ventilate her anger, plain and simple.  

And go ahead and can point out an instance in which an individual who experienced lifelong abuse, torture, and being forced to kill other people- all in the name of a twisted view of science- and then have them involved in the most grueling of combat situations, and then bounce back 6 months later... And don't give me the "it's fiction so it doesn't matter" excuse.  That's a cop out.

No, it's not that plain and simple.  At first recruiting Jack, I would agree, she agreed to it because of her need to find closure with Cerberus and for the kicks "Hey, why the **** not? rings a bell.  Now, during her developing arc in ME2, I would argue that because of Shepard and what is experiencing, especially if romanced - there's that hope of positivity and you know what, she could of easily left the Normandy, whenenver she wanted to - especially after finding out about Pragia.  A cut line during the SM "I wasn't supposed to care" - this happens when you pick her as a leader during the second run.  Plus her attitude and willingness to do better and prevent biotic kids to end up like her, all ties back to ME2.

Also, when she's explaining her past, she never says she didn't kill anyone who didn't deserve it, though you can view this how you like, but from my perspective, she never killed any innocents or went out her way to do so, but I understand if you view it differently. 

Modifié par spirosz, 28 février 2013 - 01:53 .

[spirosz]

BasilKarlo wrote...

spirosz wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

I'm just going by personal experience. Whenever I've been in the same thread as a converted Jackolyte, their justification for liking the character now is almost always based on physical appearance, hair and clothing in particular.

^

Yup, 'cause none of Miranda's fans are interested in big boobs, round butts and skin-tight catsuits.

Point flying past you, good sir.  

[spirosz]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?

Also, when does she ever express herself as a raging pyscho? 

She butchered people?

Modifié par spirosz, 28 février 2013 - 01:57 .

[Steelcan]

Modifié par Steelcan, 28 février 2013 - 01:58 .

[Steelcan]

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...
I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?

Also, when does she ever express herself as a raging pyscho? 

She butchered people?

. Purgatory did not inspire faith in her mental stability on my part.  Or her descriptions of her past crimes, especially her piracy.  Also her ranting about Cerberus, justified completely, but she's definitely scarred mentally.

She also killed Ahresh in cold blood, and she mentions not ransom ing hostages, just killing them.

[Steelcan]

BasilKarlo wrote...

spirosz wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

I'm just going by personal experience. Whenever I've been in the same thread as a converted Jackolyte, their justification for liking the character now is almost always based on physical appearance, hair and clothing in particular.

^

Yup, 'cause none of Miranda's fans are interested in big boobs, round butts and skin-tight catsuits.

. In the Miranda discussion group that applies to one person.  Most of us discuss her character.