Aller au contenu

Photo

Miranda v. Jack


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
176 réponses à ce sujet

#126
spirosz

spirosz
  • Members
  • 16 354 messages

Steelcan wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...
I think Jack becoming a teacher was brilliant. It would be awful nice to see a few more ideas like that.

. Sure lets let the raging psycho teach kids.  Butchering people is a great background for teachers.

did you even see Deinon's photo?


Also, when does she ever express herself as a raging pyscho? 

She butchered people?

. Purgatory did not inspire faith in her mental stability on my part.  Or her descriptions of her past crimes, especially her piracy.  Also her ranting about Cerberus, justified completely, but she's definitely scarred mentally.

She also killed Ahresh in cold blood, and she mentions not ransom ing hostages, just killing them.


She said it's simplier to just kill them.  Also, of course she's scarred and has issues, but I wouldn't call her a "raging pyscho" - look at her in combat, calm and cool, sane.  Even outside combat, unless someone mentions or represents Cerberus (like an anchor), she'll freak and with good reason. 

Modifié par spirosz, 28 février 2013 - 02:07 .


#127
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 291 messages

spirosz wrote...

She said it's simplier to just kill them.  Also, of course she's scared and has issues, but I wouldn't call her a "raging pyscho" - look at her in combat, calm and cool, sane.  Even outside combat, unless someone mentions or represents Cerberus (like an anchor), she'll freak and with good reason. 

. That implies a certain degree of experience with killing the hostages.  She has to have done both to compare them, but that might just be a difference of interpretation.  

Her in combat.  The first thing we see her do is blast through three YMIRs by unleashing massive biotic power.  That doesn't scream calm cool and collected. 

She (literally) gets high off violence and killing.  She loves it, unless I'm wildly misinterpreting her.

Just to be clear, I do like Jack.

#128
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
Jack was heroic in ME2. No if's, but's, argument, debate, or discussion... But I might as well explain. She stuck with Shepard all the way through, knowing there was a suicide mission to the GALACTIC CORE waiting at the end of it all. She had NOTHING to gain and EVERYTHING to lose. She wasn't even getting paid to be on the Normandy. The only thing she was paid with was Cerberus file access. Once she got what info she wanted out of that, she could have left at any time. Next time you land on Omega> "I'll be back in a bit">*never comes back*.

She stayed not only after getting the info she joined you in the first place for, she stick with you NO MATTER WHAT. Even if you never take her to Pragia to gain her true loyalty, she still follows you into a suicide mission that won't get her anything and could very well kill her... And if you did skip Pragia, she might just die helping you to stop the Collectors. She went into a suicide mission where she stood to lose everything and gain nothing with a guy who didn't even do her loyalty mission, and possibly dies during said suicide mission.

So to summarize, she joined you for certain info, stayed on after getting said info, stays with you even if you didn't do her the favor of giving her closure in regards to her past, risks her life doing a suicide mission that will kill her at worst and get her nothing at all except for a warm fuzzy feeling at best, and possibly gives her life for Shepard's cause even though he might not have even gained her loyalty.

And she's not heroic? Utter bull****.

Modifié par andy69156915, 28 février 2013 - 02:13 .


#129
spirosz

spirosz
  • Members
  • 16 354 messages

Steelcan wrote...

spirosz wrote...

She said it's simplier to just kill them.  Also, of course she's scared and has issues, but I wouldn't call her a "raging pyscho" - look at her in combat, calm and cool, sane.  Even outside combat, unless someone mentions or represents Cerberus (like an anchor), she'll freak and with good reason. 

. That implies a certain degree of experience with killing the hostages.  She has to have done both to compare them, but that might just be a difference of interpretation.  

Her in combat.  The first thing we see her do is blast through three YMIRs by unleashing massive biotic power.  That doesn't scream calm cool and collected. 

She (literally) gets high off violence and killing.  She loves it, unless I'm wildly misinterpreting her.

Just to be clear, I do like Jack.


I agree, she loves it and gets those "tingles" but look closely at her face as soon as she gets out of cryo, you see it in her eyes that she's planning it all in her head, in a calm fashion, no hesitation, then as soon as it hits, boom - and you wouldn't want to unleash all that power when there are 3 YMIR in front of you?

Modifié par spirosz, 28 février 2013 - 02:13 .


#130
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 291 messages

spirosz wrote...

I agree, she loves it and gets those "tingles" but look closely at her face as soon as she gets out of cryo, you see it in her eyes that she's planning it all in her head, in a calm fashion, no hesitation, then as soon as it hits, boom - and you wouldn't want to unleash all that power when there are 3 YMIR in front of you?

. That scene looked to m e mor elite she was waiting for this chance.  T didnt seem planned out.  She wakes up sees the mech, charges.

Jack doesn't strike me as the planning type.

#131
spirosz

spirosz
  • Members
  • 16 354 messages

Steelcan wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I agree, she loves it and gets those "tingles" but look closely at her face as soon as she gets out of cryo, you see it in her eyes that she's planning it all in her head, in a calm fashion, no hesitation, then as soon as it hits, boom - and you wouldn't want to unleash all that power when there are 3 YMIR in front of you?

. That scene looked to m e mor elite she was waiting for this chance.  T didnt seem planned out.  She wakes up sees the mech, charges.

Jack doesn't strike me as the planning type.


Ah, I guess we're viewing it differently, fair enough, haha.  

#132
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
That wasn't "planned". Her thought process during her release was probably-

"I'm being let out? Weird. What the HELL!? 3 ymri mechs at once! Then they didn't actually want me released, so I need to power up and get out of here while I have the chance. Blow the mechs out of the way and move your ass!"

#133
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages
Spirosz, and andy, please note in that post how I said "initially."  Initially.  Meaning originally, at the beginning, she had absolutely little interest in the big picture.  Her development from vicious borderline psychopath with no care in the world was one of the most important aspects of her character; that she was more than a one dimensional nutjob.

Of course she became a hero as time went on, that was the whole point of the game.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 02:34 .


#134
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
Yet she manages to become like that even without you actually helping her to deal with the horrible past that made her what she was. Sounds like someone who was a heroic person to begin with, if it took so little to get her to never abandon ship in the first place. She was definitely not "caring" yet as of finding the Pragia info. If she was as bad to begin with as you think, she would have left without a backward glance after getting that info.

#135
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

Yet she manages to become like that even without you actually helping her to deal with the horrible past that made her what she was. Sounds like someone who was a heroic person to begin with, if it took so little to get her to never abandon ship in the first place. She was definitely not "caring" yet as of finding the Pragia info. If she was as bad to begin with as you think, she would have left without a backward glance after getting that info.

You seem intent on arguing over nothing.  I never said she didn't have the potential to be a hero.  She quite obviously does.  As the game progresses she does see that there are more important things going on outside her bubble.  But EARLY ON it is clear that she only cares about herself.  This is supported by in game dialog, the MEU profiles on her, and the wiki.

#136
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
She discovers Pragia and gets her main info EARLY ON (when you say she doesn't give a damn yet), but sticks with you anyway.

#137
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

She discovers Pragia and gets her main info EARLY ON (when you say she doesn't give a damn yet), but sticks with you anyway.

You mean after Horizon?  The second act of the game?   And you mean while also considering the fact that you can put it off until after you get every other teammate, and do every other loyalty mission?  Taking my time that's easily 10-15 hours of my 30 hour ME2 playthrough.  In universe, that's a couple of weeks at least, considering the game takes place over the course of a number of months.

#138
Errationatus

Errationatus
  • Members
  • 1 386 messages
Jack bad.

Baaaaaad.  Broken.  Boring.

Miranda perfection, so y'all shut uppayoufaces.

Long post here before, bad.  Too long, short attention spans.  Brain hurts.  Bad.

Boobs.

Booooooooooooooooooooobs.

More Miriboobs.

That is all.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 01 mars 2013 - 01:54 .


#139
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
If you get her last, which I have before, then only about 2 missions go by before she discovers it. At that point, she discovers it when she's still acting like the "crazy killer" you seem to think she is before a certain point into the game. That is what, a week at most? So she goes from crazy killer to heroic in a week, by your own reasoning. Again, that sounds like someone who always had goodness and hero'ness in her, if she doesn't run off with that info even though she's only knew you for a few days and has all the reason in the world to cut and bail after that considering it's before she "gives a damn" like you seem to think she didn't at that point.

My whole point is, she was always a good person from day 1 and always had a bit of an urge to protect and save people. Her upbringing on Pragia tried to corrupt that, but it didn't succeed because she always had the good core to her. In fact, it shows just how good of a heart she has that even after her childhood she managed to hold onto that goodness, that not even that could destroy it. The nicer Jack you see in ME3 is the real Jack, the one who's finally let her goodness out for all the world to see now that she knew that not everyone would try to trample it. I have no doubt that she's probably one of the nicest people in the series deep down, she just tried to bury it as deep as she could because she didn't want to be used anymore. It's weird to think about, but she probably would have been as nice as someone like Tali if Cerberus had never got their hands on her. Well, she is actually as nice as someone like Tali, she just doesn't like letting it show often.

Reminds me of a quote from a manga I really like, about someone else who was a good person at heart who had life circumstances try to destroy that.

"A good sword, even it's got cracks and rust, in the core it always has good metal. That metal is the best metal of all. No matter how big the crack is, when put into the fire... It revives."

The point of the metaphor is that a person with a moral and good core who has had life try to destroy that core, they can be brought back to being good again if subjected to the proper flame. That flame for Jack is Shepard and the mission to stop the Collectors. She just needed a flame to bring her core goodness back out after rust and cracks formed over its exterior because of Cerberus. Jack was always a good person at her core, but events tried to destroy that part of her and made her lose sight of that part of herself for a time, just like events can damage even a good sword. But like a sword, the core will still be strong no matter how damaged the exterior is, and can revive the whole sword when put into a good flame.

And this is coming from someone who has never ONCE romanced Jack. I'm not a fanboy for her, and she's not even close to my favorite character in the series. But I recognize what kind of person she really is. She ALWAYS gave a damn. She didn't "become" good because of Shepard and the missions, she was always good in the first place. She just needed something to bring that side out again, a side she didn't want to aknowledge but was always there. THAT is why she didn't run off after getting her data even if she's still in a "not giving a damn yet" state like you think she's in early-game, because she was never at a point where she actually didn't care. She didn't want to admit to anyone, especially herself, that she did care. But actions speak louder then words, and her actions show someone who cared from the beginning.

Modifié par andy69156915, 28 février 2013 - 04:12 .


#140
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 261 messages

BasilKarlo wrote...

Yup, 'cause none of Miranda's fans are interested in big boobs, round butts and skin-tight catsuits.


Charming. Needlessly hostile and off topic, but charming. 

Go away.

#141
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

If you get her last, which I have before, then only about 2 missions go by before she discovers it. At that point, she discovers it when she's still acting like the "crazy killer" you seem to think she is before a certain point into the game. That is what, a week at most? So she goes from crazy killer to heroic in a week, by your own reasoning. Again, that sounds like someone who always had goodness and hero'ness in her, if she doesn't run off with that info even though she's only knew you for a few days and has all the reason in the world to cut and bail after that considering it's before she "gives a damn" like you seem to think she didn't at that point.

My whole point is, she was always a good person from day 1 and always had a bit of an urge to protect and save people. Her upbringing on Pragia tried to corrupt that, but it didn't succeed because she always had the good core to her. In fact, it shows just how good of a heart she has that even after her childhood she managed to hold onto that goodness, that not even that could destroy it. The nicer Jack you see in ME3 is the real Jack, the one who's finally let her goodness out for all the world to see now that she knew that not everyone would try to trample it. I have no doubt that she's probably one of the nicest people in the series deep down, she just tried to bury it as deep as she could because she didn't want to be used anymore. It's weird to think about, but she probably would have been as nice as someone like Tali if Cerberus had never got their hands on her. Well, she is actually as nice as someone like Tali, she just doesn't like letting it show often.

Reminds me of a quote from a manga I really like, about someone else who was a good person at heart who had life circumstances try to destroy that.

"A good sword, even it's got cracks and rust, in the core it always has good metal. That metal is the best metal of all. No matter how big the crack is, when put into the fire... It revives."

The point of the metaphor is that a person with a moral and good core who has had life try to destroy that core, they can be brought back to being good again if subjected to the proper flame. That flame for Jack is Shepard and the mission to stop the Collectors. She just needed a flame to bring her core goodness back out after rust and cracks formed over its exterior because of Cerberus. Jack was always a good person at her core, but events tried to destroy that part of her and made her lose sight of that part of herself for a time, just like events can damage even a good sword. But like a sword, the core will still be strong no matter how damaged the exterior is, and can revive the whole sword when put into a good flame.

And this is coming from someone who has never ONCE romanced Jack. I'm not a fanboy for her, and she's not even close to my favorite character in the series. But I recognize what kind of person she really is. She ALWAYS gave a damn. She didn't "become" good because of Shepard and the missions, she was always good in the first place. She just needed something to bring that side out again, a side she didn't want to aknowledge but was always there. THAT is why she didn't run off after getting her data even if she's still in a "not giving a damn yet" state like you think she's in early-game, because she was never at a point where she actually didn't care. She didn't want to admit to anyone, especially herself, that she did care. But actions speak louder then words, and her actions show someone who cared from the beginning.

It's like at the core we agree, we just have wildly differing viewpoints and perspectives.  And, your example of gameplay and lore segregation only further reinforces my point.  Again, I never said Jack didn't have the potential to be a hero, or deep down she wasn't a good person.  I'm simply saying that her entire transition flies in the face of reality.  By ME3 everything she was is suddenly "poof," gone.  Now she's just another gruff, foul mouthed, teacher with the troubled past and the heart of gold beneath the cold outward exterior.  And it did not do her character any justice.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 05:08 .


#142
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
She had that "heart of gold beneath the cold outward exterior" thing going since pretty much right after you recruit her in ME2, that wasn't some random thing ME3 pulled out of its ass. ME2 started that. ME3 merely made that trait about her more apparent because she was done trying to hide it like an emotionally sealed off traumatized person (which is hardly unique either).

And the quick change to her true self wasn't too quick or unbelievable at all. Back to the sword metaphor, an externally damaged but good sword doesn't take that much time in a blacksmith flame before it becomes like new again, so long as the core remained strong. Jack's core did remain strong, so she didn't need that much time to become more herself again once the flame of the Collector mission enveloped her.

#143
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

She had that "heart of gold beneath the cold outward exterior" thing going since pretty much right after you recruit her in ME2, that wasn't some random thing ME3 pulled out of its ass. ME2 started that. ME3 merely made that trait about her more apparent because she was done trying to hide it like an emotionally sealed off traumatized person (which is hardly unique either).

And the quick change to her true self wasn't too quick or unbelievable at all. Back to the sword metaphor, an externally damaged but good sword doesn't take that much time in a blacksmith flame before it becomes like new again, so long as the core remained strong. Jack's core did remain strong, so she didn't need that much time to become more herself again once the flame of the Collector mission enveloped her.

Not to quick or unbelievable based on what? Video games?  Cartoons?  Anime?  Dragonball Z?  You just failed to see D's sensitive side behind all that murderous mayhem and carnage; get him a kitten, you'll see.  

It's not at all believable.  Only in a video game would we see a person be made into a murderous, remorseless killer, wanted fugitive, convicted felon; get broken out of a prison, go all sweet and gentle and then go on to become a war hero and  teacher of a new generation all within 6 months.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 05:29 .


#144
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
Only in video games? Don't have much experience with fictional mediums outside of video games, do you? Must not, to make that kind of statement.

Oh and to answer the question, it's believable based on my own opinions and exceptions about things. I can believe it.

#145
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

Only in video games? Don't have much experience with fictional mediums outside of video games, do you? Must not, to make that kind of statement.

Oh and to answer the question, it's believable based on my own opinions and exceptions about things. I can believe it.

Keyword: fictional.  And I meant that in general to include all fictional mediums.  But that's irrelevant, because again, fictional.  Compare that fiction to reality, and you get a starkly different picture.  And as to your second point, simply put, empirical data trumps your opinion.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 05:43 .


#146
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
Right, talking about a fictional character in a fictional context while using quotes from a fictional Japanese manga. Your point?

#147
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

Right, talking about a fictional character in a fictional context while using quotes from a fictional Japanese manga. Your point?

You're the one who opened that door, not me.  My entire argument, at it's core, has been that Jack's character development has been relatively grounded in reality; up to a point, with breathing room to allow for things such as gameplay and lore segregation.  So a few slips through the cracks in suspension of disbelief is fine. However, Jack's sudden 180 change in favor of the mainstream, is completely out of whack.  She's a totally different character, the only link to what she once was being her relationship to Shepard.  

She is completely white-washed clean by ME3.  Clean-slate entirely.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 06:04 .


#148
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
What? Jack was never grounded in reality, she was a very fictional and cliched character who was nothing but a combination of the"dark and troubled past" and "broken bird" tropes. She was no more or less realistic then her ME3 self.

#149
Konfined

Konfined
  • Members
  • 444 messages

andy69156915 wrote...

What? Jack was never grounded in reality, she was a very fictional and cliched character who was nothing but a combination of the"dark and troubled past" and "broken bird" tropes. She was no more or less realistic then her ME3 self.

I said character development.  Character.  Development.   Of course I know a goddamn psychic fighting a race of living spaceships isn't real.  Her development as a character was relatively grounded in reality.  Meaning she didn't become a goddamn super hero overnight.  

Maybe grounded in reality was indeed a very poor choice of words, especially considering this is a video game character in a video game about aliens, pseudo magic powers, and talking battleships that look like seafood.  It changes very little though.  Her development in ME2 was subtle enough; and it was necessary to do little bit of stretching in order to suit the confines of the tightly woven narrative.  ME3, however, not so subtle.  Entirely different character.  Allow me to explain.

The "broken bird" and "dark and troubled past" tropes you mentioned are key aspects of her character.  Key.  They defined her, made her what she was.  The dark cloud hanging over her head, that would stick with her the rest of her days  The writers went to some lengths to stress those tropes and how they affected her, made her.  Dark cloud, silver lining.  They obviously take a back seat as time goes on, and as you get to know her- but they still remained key aspects of not only her character, but of her place in the game's universe as well; throughout the entirety of ME2; beginning to end, romanced or not. This is all expected, all believable, all realistic- relatively speaking.

They are noticeably absent in ME3.  They just go away.  Not.  Believable.  At all.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 07:13 .


#150
SlottsMachine

SlottsMachine
  • Members
  • 5 530 messages
^As much I as don't mind how things turned out, I agree 100% with your post.