156 réponses à ce sujet

[Deerber]

Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Good info here, silly question but is it ever worth investing only 5 points in Fitness instead of 4 or 6? I've never really heard much opinion on the shield-recharge delay but sometimes I'm torn between going full fitness or grabbing points some where else.

Shield recharge is hugely underestimated. It's a great asset, especially if you have multiple bonuses on it. Take the Geth Trooper, for example. With the right setup, it can wait less than a second for his shields to regenerate. If you're good at taking soft cover, it's pretty hard to go down with that...

 

Hey hey hey. Not too long ago - you were a hater. 

Uh? I don't remember ever arguing that shield recharge speed isn't a good thing. I actually remember arguing that it's way better than a cyclonic, on lots of kits. There are some exceptions on which I think it's completely useless though (see below).

Uchimura wrote...


I always take Shield Power Cells on Slayer. 

Uhm... I'm not sure if you're trying to troll me :happy:

If you're not, you might want to think about that twice. The Slayer's a vanguard, and the most mobile at that (well, cabal apart). You should really be charging each and every time before your shields start regenerating by themselves, so shield power cells might be a true waste 

My simple opinion, of course.

Modifié par Deerber, 28 février 2013 - 01:31 .

[HolyAvenger]

I take SPCs on squishy kits (like a HAdept) where CM won't make a big difference.

[tMc Tallgeese]

What's fitness? Never heard of it.

6/6/6/6/0 for me.

[Stenun]

The problem with this logic is that it ignores anything other than "Gold difficulty with only Fitness providing a shield boost".

What about Shield Booster V gear? Or the Stronghold Package? Or the Cyclonic Modulator equipment? Or if a Volus is on the team? Or if an enemy has been hit by a power that reduces their damage? Or Silver or Platinum difficulty?

You do mention this logic is applied to "the basis of the damage examples I chose" which is a good point on your part. But that immediately raises the question of what about the examples you DIDN'T choose and why didn't you choose them? Could it be because they didn't back up the conclusion you wanted to make and therefore you selectively chose your examples based on that?
I don't mean to sound harsh and I realise this is just an internet message board and not a science exam but as it stands I don't really think your logic demonstrates much other than, maybe, serving as an encouragement to think about Fitness rather than just automatically take the max bonus. Which, if that was your only intended point, good point well made. :-) Ohterwise, I'm sticking with my Fitness.

[Deerber]

Stenun wrote...

The problem with this logic is that it ignores anything other than "Gold difficulty with only Fitness providing a shield boost".

What about Shield Booster V gear? Or the Stronghold Package? Or the Cyclonic Modulator equipment? Or if a Volus is on the team? Or if an enemy has been hit by a power that reduces their damage? Or Silver or Platinum difficulty?

You do mention this logic is applied to "the basis of the damage examples I chose" which is a good point on your part. But that immediately raises the question of what about the examples you DIDN'T choose and why didn't you choose them? Could it be because they didn't back up the conclusion you wanted to make and therefore you selectively chose your examples based on that?
I don't mean to sound harsh and I realise this is just an internet message board and not a science exam but as it stands I don't really think your logic demonstrates much other than, maybe, serving as an encouragement to think about Fitness rather than just automatically take the max bonus. Which, if that was your only intended point, good point well made. :-) Ohterwise, I'm sticking with my Fitness.

You're pretty right. The thing which demonstrates he's right is experience with the game. Try going around with 0 fitness and, first 2 waves apart, you're just as durable as with 6 fitness, on most kits.

[FMultimedia]

I always had this impression - most enemies kill my weaker classes with one shot anyway, so why bother with fitness? Obviously, it depends a lot on the difficulty and the character itself, but I'll take shield power cells over cyclonic mods any day with my infiltrators.

BTW this logic obviously work even better in platinum difficulty, since even weaker mobs will deal killing dmg with one shot... Likewise, fitness is much more useful in silver/bronze difficulties - soloing bronze with a krogan vanguard is probably the easiest...

The only situation I dearly miss having a tidbit higher health is when I am running away from somewhere (on gold) and weaker enemies are shooting me from afar. I see my shield breaking, my health going and oh crap, I'm dead.... =( (survival packs can obviously make up for this!)

Modifié par FMultimedia, 28 février 2013 - 01:48 .

[Arppis]

What if you use cyclonic modulators? I think in those cases fitness means a lot.

[ISHYGDDT]

The thing that blurs the line is that you won't always take an entire burst from a Centurion, Marauder, etc... either by breaking line-of-site or simply evading fast enough. When that happens, fitness may be enough to prevent you from being shield-gated.

[Arppis]

Deerber wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Good info here, silly question but is it ever worth investing only 5 points in Fitness instead of 4 or 6? I've never really heard much opinion on the shield-recharge delay but sometimes I'm torn between going full fitness or grabbing points some where else.

Shield recharge is hugely underestimated. It's a great asset, especially if you have multiple bonuses on it. Take the Geth Trooper, for example. With the right setup, it can wait less than a second for his shields to regenerate. If you're good at taking soft cover, it's pretty hard to go down with that...

 

Hey hey hey. Not too long ago - you were a hater. 

Uh? I don't remember ever arguing that shield recharge speed isn't a good thing. I actually remember arguing that it's way better than a cyclonic, on lots of kits. There are some exceptions on which I think it's completely useless though (see below).

Uchimura wrote...


I always take Shield Power Cells on Slayer. 

Uhm... I'm not sure if you're trying to troll me :happy:

If you're not, you might want to think about that twice. The Slayer's a vanguard, and the most mobile at that (well, cabal apart). You should really be charging each and every time before your shields start regenerating by themselves, so shield power cells might be a true waste 

My simple opinion, of course.

You are not thinking trough every scenario.

What if he can't charge? What if charging means he's dead in middle of the enemies? So I'd want to shields to regen fast at those sittulations. Like when hack circle appears or escort drone...

It has it's uses. And some people use Biotic Blade... or what it's called. So after using that, they can start spamming the palm canon. :happy:

Plus bigger number of shields don't always matter, as Phase Distruptor uses your shields and doesn't benefit from higher shield numbers... unlike Nova.

Modifié par Arppis, 28 février 2013 - 01:54 .

[Deerber]

Arppis wrote...

You are not thinking trough every scenario.

What if he can't charge? What if charging means he's dead in middle of the enemies? So I'd want to shields to regen fast at those sittulations. Like when hack circle appears or escort drone...

It has it's uses. And some people use Biotic Blade... or what it's called. So after using that, they can start spamming the palm canon. :happy:

Plus bigger number of shields don't always matter, as Phase Distruptor uses your shields and doesn't benefit from higher shield numbers... unlike Nova.

Talking about my experience with the Slayer of course, so someone else might play him differently. But we're here to share, right? 

Well, in my experience there is no situation in which the Slayer cannot charge and stay alive. Litterally, no situation in the entire game in which you shouldn't charge. His teleport means you can reposition in the right way immediately, and have restored your shields. Also, in a hack circle/escort you can always charge out and teleport back with 1-2 dodges. So long as you don't charge too far, you're not losing any time on the objective cause it's "quantized".

A higher number of shields doesn't mean more damage with PD, but usually means a lot more survivability. I found, in particular, that you're much less subject to the charge-death glitch if you use a cyclonic. And if you don't fancy that, you can always use a power amplifier.

Finally yes, if you use Biotic slash then you might want to use power cells... But do people really use it? I find it really inefficient 

[Arctican]

I find fitness largely helpful with dealing with DoT attacks, such as the Banshee Balls, Atlas Missiles, Swarmers, and Abominations. Having a few extra health could mean the difference of going down or surviving with one bar of health left.

But otherwise, I think speccing into fitness is mostly for psychological reasons. You think you're much stronger than you really are, therefore you play a bit more confidently, which may mean you kill things faster.

[Arppis]

Deerber wrote...

Arppis wrote...

You are not thinking trough every scenario.

What if he can't charge? What if charging means he's dead in middle of the enemies? So I'd want to shields to regen fast at those sittulations. Like when hack circle appears or escort drone...

It has it's uses. And some people use Biotic Blade... or what it's called. So after using that, they can start spamming the palm canon. :happy:

Plus bigger number of shields don't always matter, as Phase Distruptor uses your shields and doesn't benefit from higher shield numbers... unlike Nova.

Talking about my experience with the Slayer of course, so someone else might play him differently. But we're here to share, right? 

Well, in my experience there is no situation in which the Slayer cannot charge and stay alive. Litterally, no situation in the entire game in which you shouldn't charge. His teleport means you can reposition in the right way immediately, and have restored your shields. Also, in a hack circle/escort you can always charge out and teleport back with 1-2 dodges. So long as you don't charge too far, you're not losing any time on the objective cause it's "quantized".

A higher number of shields doesn't mean more damage with PD, but usually means a lot more survivability. I found, in particular, that you're much less subject to the charge-death glitch if you use a cyclonic. And if you don't fancy that, you can always use a power amplifier.

Finally yes, if you use Biotic slash then you might want to use power cells... But do people really use it? I find it really inefficient 

Well, getting in middle of Banshees isn't a great idea. Sometimes you might get grabbed even when you dodged the hell out of the way (bad luck sucks), and Preatorians too.

I also like sometimes to just shoot distant enemies with PD and you don't have possibility to charge from the position. There are uses for the faster recharge time.

It's not neccessary thing, but I can totaly see the uses for Shield Recharge speed.

[VirtualAlex]

Stenun wrote...

The problem with this logic is that it ignores anything other than "Gold difficulty with only Fitness providing a shield boost".

What about Shield Booster V gear? Or the Stronghold Package? Or the Cyclonic Modulator equipment? Or if a Volus is on the team? Or if an enemy has been hit by a power that reduces their damage? Or Silver or Platinum difficulty?

You do mention this logic is applied to "the basis of the damage examples I chose" which is a good point on your part. But that immediately raises the question of what about the examples you DIDN'T choose and why didn't you choose them? Could it be because they didn't back up the conclusion you wanted to make and therefore you selectively chose your examples based on that?
I don't mean to sound harsh and I realise this is just an internet message board and not a science exam but as it stands I don't really think your logic demonstrates much other than, maybe, serving as an encouragement to think about Fitness rather than just automatically take the max bonus. Which, if that was your only intended point, good point well made. :-) Ohterwise, I'm sticking with my Fitness.

I am currently working on a much more in-depth analysis of these concepts. I have developed average burst damage for all the mooks to add to my thoughts. It is hard to figure out how much damage a mook does because they shoot many little shots.

I chose those damage values because large single shots are easy to deal with. However my logic is not faulty. Putting points into fitness DOES yield deminishing returns. The first 3 ranks are hugely profitable, and then slope off sharply. The benefit of going from 625 shields to 825 shields does not give you enough benefit.

Modifié par VirtualAlex, 28 février 2013 - 03:36 .

[Deerber]

Arppis wrote...

Well, getting in middle of Banshees isn't a great idea. Sometimes you might get grabbed even when you dodged the hell out of the way (bad luck sucks), and Preatorians too.

I also like sometimes to just shoot distant enemies with PD and you don't have possibility to charge from the position. There are uses for the faster recharge time.

It's not neccessary thing, but I can totaly see the uses for Shield Recharge speed.

Yeah, I guess it depends on the gamestyle as I said.

Me, I like to charge head-down before even seeing what I'm charging. I can charge Banshees and Praetorians without problems, on host. Well, Praetorians that are just walking around and are facing me are sometimes a problem. But that's pretty rare.

[VirtualAlex]

Just for giggles, the 15% shield recharge delay bonus at rank 5 makes your shields recharge .45 seconds faster on gold (gold is a 3 second delay).

To me, honestly, I have never noticed. If I can hide in cover for 2.55 seconds, I can probably hide in cover for 3.0 seconds. That powerup costs 5 points. Sadly, the rank 5 in melee sucks also for a non-dedicated melee character. Rank 5 fitness really really sucks for non-melee characters it does almost nothing.

The only classes that should be going to rank 6 on fitness are Vanguards (because they get so much sheer VALUE out of more shields), Krogans and Batarians. Vanguards couldn't care less about shield recharge delay because they choose when it happens. Krogs and Bats will always take melee. Fitnes 5B is horrible all of the time, 5A is situational, and usually horrible also. This is why going to fitness 6 sucks so much, becaus 5 gives so little.

0, 3, or 4. That is the sweetspot.

Modifié par VirtualAlex, 28 février 2013 - 03:42 .

[HolyAvenger]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Just for giggles, the 15% shield recharge delay bonus at rank 5 makes your shields recharge .45 seconds faster on gold (gold is a 3 second delay).

To me, honestly, I have never noticed. If I can hide in cover for 2.55 seconds, I can probably hide in cover for 3.0 seconds. That powerup costs 5 points. Sadly, the rank 5 in melee sucks also for a non-dedicated melee character. Rank 5 fitness really really sucks for non-melee characters it does almost nothing.

You'll notice when you start combining it with some shield recharge gear/consumables, trust me

[VaultingFrog]

I prefer not to have paper characters where a stiff breeze would KO them.

That being said, you put a boat load of effort into this. I dont particularly care about the numbers aspect but hey your effort hasnt gone unnoticed.

[unclemonster]

VirtualAlex wrote...

 However my logic is not faulty. Putting points into fitness DOES yield deminishing returns. The first 3 ranks are hugely profitable, and then slope off sharply. The benefit of going from 625 shields to 825 shields does not give you enough benefit.

How is it "hugely profitable" going from 500 shields to 625?

Seems like basically NOTHING gained whereas 10% weapon damage is actually profitable

[VirtualAlex]

VaultingFrog wrote...

I prefer not to have paper characters where a stiff breeze would KO them.

That being said, you put a boat load of effort into this. I dont particularly care about the numbers aspect but hey your effort hasnt gone unnoticed.

Haha thank you alot, but one of my points was that you will get KOed NEARLY the same amount with fitness on paper characters. Let's take an example of a Vorcha and a Human engineer

Both of these classes have incinerate, and both have fitness (obv). However putting points into fitness with the vorcha is MUCH more profitable. This is kinda like a meta-game way of looking at skill points. If you spend 21 points on incinerate, or any power, you get X out of it on all characters. Fitness is not the same. The human engineer spending points into a crippled fitness tree is just going to be worse than a vorcha doing the same. better to concentrate on offensive powers which always give full value.

[VaultingFrog]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Haha thank you alot, but one of my points was that you will get KOed NEARLY the same amount with fitness on paper characters. Let's take an example of a Vorcha and a Human engineer

Both of these classes have incinerate, and both have fitness (obv). However putting points into fitness with the vorcha is MUCH more profitable. This is kinda like a meta-game way of looking at skill points. If you spend 21 points on incinerate, or any power, you get X out of it on all characters. Fitness is not the same. The human engineer spending points into a crippled fitness tree is just going to be worse than a vorcha doing the same. better to concentrate on offensive powers which always give full value.

Its the knowledge that my character has some fitness that gives me the moral support to stay out there and take it like a man in a digital universe. With out it I am just paper in the wind.

Some times just knowing that you have something, even if its only a minor change in your characters make up, can mean the difference in what actions you take during a match, for good or ill.

[VirtualAlex]

unclemonster wrote...

VirtualAlex wrote...

 However my logic is not faulty. Putting points into fitness DOES yield deminishing returns. The first 3 ranks are hugely profitable, and then slope off sharply. The benefit of going from 625 shields to 825 shields does not give you enough benefit.

How is it "hugely profitable" going from 500 shields to 625?

Seems like basically NOTHING gained whereas 10% weapon damage is actually profitable

It is hugely profitable because for only 6 points spent you gain not only 25% health and shields, but you always gain 30% melee damage. Nothing else in the fitness tree comes even close to this. It is arguable if 10% weapon damage is worth more than this, and I encourage you to take that into account!

[unclemonster]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Just for giggles, the 15% shield recharge delay bonus at rank 5 makes your shields recharge .45 seconds faster on gold (gold is a 3 second delay).

To me, honestly, I have never noticed. If I can hide in cover for 2.55 seconds, I can probably hide in cover for 3.0 seconds. That powerup costs 5 points. Sadly, the rank 5 in melee sucks also for a non-dedicated melee character. Rank 5 fitness really really sucks for non-melee characters it does almost nothing.

The only classes that should be going to rank 6 on fitness are Vanguards (because they get so much sheer VALUE out of more shields), Krogans and Batarians. Vanguards couldn't care less about shield recharge delay because they choose when it happens. Krogs and Bats will always take melee. Fitnes 5B is horrible all of the time, 5A is situational, and usually horrible also. This is why going to fitness 6 sucks so much, becaus 5 gives so little.

0, 3, or 4. That is the sweetspot.

15% shield recharge is the best thing in the fitness tree (unless kit has special skills)

Modifié par unclemonster, 28 février 2013 - 03:59 .

[VirtualAlex]

Here is my plan. I am going to calculate DPS for every enemy, and then see how many seconds of sustained fire you can take at different fitness ranks. So we can see if max fitness will give you 1 or more extra seconds before you die. That will be usefull.

[VirtualAlex]

unclemonster wrote...

15% shield recharge is the best thing in the fitness tree (unless kit has special skills)

I just don't understand how you can say that about a.45 second reduction. It doesn't make sense to me.

[unclemonster]

VirtualAlex wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

VirtualAlex wrote...

 However my logic is not faulty. Putting points into fitness DOES yield deminishing returns. The first 3 ranks are hugely profitable, and then slope off sharply. The benefit of going from 625 shields to 825 shields does not give you enough benefit.

How is it "hugely profitable" going from 500 shields to 625?

Seems like basically NOTHING gained whereas 10% weapon damage is actually profitable

It is hugely profitable because for only 6 points spent you gain not only 25% health and shields, but you always gain 30% melee damage. Nothing else in the fitness tree comes even close to this. It is arguable if 10% weapon damage is worth more than this, and I encourage you to take that into account!

I NEVER melee (except 2 new big kits) so that evo is useless to me
I just do not see anything useful gained on a kit that has 500 shields going to 625

on other kits yes, but 500 to 625 is basically nothing