156 réponses à ce sujet

[unclemonster]

VirtualAlex wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

15% shield recharge is the best thing in the fitness tree (unless kit has special skills)

I just don't understand how you can say that about a.45 second reduction. It doesn't make sense to me.

I appreciate your numbers and it is nice info

the shield recharge rate is my personal sweet spot on a squishy kit, if I can get to 15% shield recharge, add stronghold and shield power cells gear, I now have a shield that comes back very quickly and I keep that kit alive

I like faster recharging shields better than more shields
it is my opinion and fits my playstyle

nice thread and discussion!

[Super Nothing]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

I usually at least give fitness 3 ranks. For most of my aggro classes like turians I believe I tend to give them 5 for shield recharge which has saved my ass more times than I can count.

Probably because if you take Rank 1 in a skill, you may as well take it to Rank 3.  There are no possible builds that leave a skill at Rank 1 or 2 without having points left over to buy more ranks.  Possible build combos are: 66660, 66653, and 66644.  

[unclemonster]

Arppis wrote...

What if you use cyclonic modulators? I think in those cases fitness means a lot.

cyclonic modulator is based on your base fitness, so it doesn't factor in

[VirtualAlex]

unclemonster wrote...

I NEVER melee (except 2 new big kits) so that evo is useless to me
I just do not see anything useful gained on a kit that has 500 shields going to 625

on other kits yes, but 500 to 625 is basically nothing

Oh i was confused. You were sarcastically saying, that shield recharge is the most useful thing in the fitness tree, implying that everything else is useless? I agree with you for the most part. That was my reason for doing this research and making the thread.

Fitness points are much less useful than putting them into powers on nearly every kit. However if for some reason you don't want to max a power all the way, such as: Pull, dark channel, turret, combat drone, decoy, lash, slash, smash, concussive blast, carnage, proxy mine, or any other skills that functions well without rank 6. Putting three or 4 into fitness is a good deal.

Going to rank 5 or 6 on fitness is often a very bad deal.

[vonSlash]

Even on low-health characters, I'm always going to take fitness to 6 for four reasons:

1) I don't want to even have access to powers that I'm not going to use as essential parts of my playstyle

2) I can't stand using a power that isn't fully upgraded.

3) I prefer passive boosts to active powers

4) I hate having skill points left over

If the benefits of taking fitness to 6 are marginal, so be it.

Modifié par vonSlash, 28 février 2013 - 04:38 .

[unclemonster]

VirtualAlex wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

I prefer not to have paper characters where a stiff breeze would KO them.

That being said, you put a boat load of effort into this. I dont particularly care about the numbers aspect but hey your effort hasnt gone unnoticed.

Haha thank you alot, but one of my points was that you will get KOed NEARLY the same amount with fitness on paper characters. Let's take an example of a Vorcha and a Human engineer

Both of these classes have incinerate, and both have fitness (obv). However putting points into fitness with the vorcha is MUCH more profitable. This is kinda like a meta-game way of looking at skill points. If you spend 21 points on incinerate, or any power, you get X out of it on all characters. Fitness is not the same. The human engineer spending points into a crippled fitness tree is just going to be worse than a vorcha doing the same. better to concentrate on offensive powers which always give full value.

my vorcha is actually spec 6/6/6/5/3 (only 3 in fitness) 
full health regen and power damage

I used to only put 3 in cluster grenades and max fitness as I was afraid I wouldn't be able to keep him alive
I actually do much better with less fitness as my full spec clusters are better than the added fitness for survival (kill alot when overwhelmed)

I play him on platinum and destroy with him

[aruguren]

I run fitness-less characters because in my experience the % more or less doesn't makes any difference to me, as the only thing that matters are the gates. I learned to use cover and not get shot.

[VirtualAlex]

unclemonster wrote...

my vorcha is actually spec 6/6/6/5/3 (only 3 in fitness) 
full health regen and power damage

I used to only put 3 in cluster grenades and max fitness as I was afraid I wouldn't be able to keep him alive
I actually do much better with less fitness as my full spec clusters are better than the added fitness for survival (kill alot when overwhelmed)

I play him on platinum and destroy with him

Of course that is fine I didn't mean to imply you are making a mistake not maxxing fitness on a vorcha. Simply that a vorcha's fitness points are MUCH stronger than a human, while power points are always the same power.

Take the following two builds, vorcha engineer and human engineer at 6/6/6/6/0. These have both spent thier point to maximum effeciency. But at 0/6/6/6/6 the human is getting a MUCH worse deal than the vorcha because his fitness tree is so bad in comparison.

[VirtualAlex]

vonSlash wrote...
Even on low-health characters, I'm always going to take fitness to 6 for four reasons:

1) I don't want to even have access to powers that I'm not going to use as essential parts of my playstyle

If there is a skill worth skipping, then obviously fitness will be taken. Although I am not sure why you are making such a stand about skipping skills.

2) I can't stand using a power that isn't fully upgraded.

This is a little silly... Almost like a super-stition. Some powers function perfectly fine on 3-4-5 ranks. Rank 3 pull is a fine choice. Rank 5 proxy mine is a fine choice, rank 3-4 blade armor is legit.

3) I prefer passive boosts to active powers

This is a short sighted philosophy because it doesn't take into account the value of those powers. A bad passive power is worse than a good active power and that should be a consideration. But this is a fine choice.

4) I hate having skill points left over
If the benefits of taking fitness to 6 are marginal, so be it.

So you require a 6-6-6-6-0 build, that's fine with me. But why do you claim to always max fitness? it's probably worse than maxxing your powers. But it's a personal choice, fitness gives you 65%+ more life. This is certainly fine, I am just pointing out how there is some minor loss of value.

[Computron2000]

Big mistake there

Evo 5 is actually the main reason for the fitness tree.

With it, you get back shield gate faster and can get back to taking down enemies faster. Ranks 1 to 4 are just gravy. Rank 6 is not particularly useful and can be skipped on most classes other than the special fitness classes like on krogans.

[VirtualAlex]

Computron2000 wrote...

Big mistake there

Evo 5 is actually the main reason for the fitness tree.

With it, you get back shield gate faster and can get back to taking down enemies faster. Ranks 1 to 4 are just gravy. Rank 6 is not particularly useful and can be skipped on most classes other than the special fitness classes like on krogans.

I stated early that the 15% recharge delay saves you .45 seconds. To me, this is not a noticeable difference. If I am hiding behind cover waiting for recharge, and I have 2.55 seconds to spare, I probably have 3 seconds to spare. I have never noticed a difference in my gameplay when I have this rank vs when I don't.

[HolyAvenger]

Computron2000 wrote...


With it, you get back shield gate faster and can get back to taking down enemies faster. Ranks 1 to 4 are just gravy. Rank 6 is not particularly useful and can be skipped on most classes other than the special fitness classes like on krogans.

Shieldgate cooldown is independent of shield recharge afaik.

[Learn To Love Yourself]

Deerber wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Good info here, silly question but is it ever worth investing only 5 points in Fitness instead of 4 or 6? I've never really heard much opinion on the shield-recharge delay but sometimes I'm torn between going full fitness or grabbing points some where else.

Shield recharge is hugely underestimated. It's a great asset, especially if you have multiple bonuses on it. Take the Geth Trooper, for example. With the right setup, it can wait less than a second for his shields to regenerate. If you're good at taking soft cover, it's pretty hard to go down with that...

Agreed here.  On some characters, you can get [near] instant regen for your shields.

Thanks, OP, for posting your findings.  Very interesting.

[Computron2000]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...


With it, you get back shield gate faster and can get back to taking down enemies faster. Ranks 1 to 4 are just gravy. Rank 6 is not particularly useful and can be skipped on most classes other than the special fitness classes like on krogans.

Shieldgate cooldown is independent of shield recharge afaik.

Any backing evidence? This is the normal shield recharge, not shields from shield boost, biotic charge, stim packs or similar (which does not give you back shield gate)

Edit: Just tested it myself using various methods and you're correct. The natural shield regen is independent from shieldgate cooldown

Modifié par Computron2000, 28 février 2013 - 05:27 .

[VirtualAlex]

Jack Crapper wrote...

Agreed here.  On some characters, you can get [near] instant regen for your shields.

Please explain this to me, I have never actually tried stacking shield recharge before, maybe I am missing something. What is the max recharge you can get? I find it hard to Beleive you can get near 100% reduction in shield recharge delay... But I have never looked. How much reduction do the gear/consumable give? The numbers are additive I assume?

[anticitizen101]

Here you go

[VirtualAlex]

anticitizen101 wrote...

Here you go

Wow well that is actually pretty awesome! However this situation is pretty crazy!

"( Base Shield recharge delay ) - 30%( shield power cell III) - 15%( multicapacitor V ) - 15% ( Blade armor ) - 15% ( Fitness rank 5 ) - 25% ( Biotic Sphere ) = 0"

That's very cool, however even without fitness the delay would have been only .45 seconds. Which is pretty darn fast. All of the bonuses are addative, so you don't need the fitness to still get a very fast recharge if you are stacking all those buffs.

Thank you for that video, very educational!

Modifié par VirtualAlex, 28 février 2013 - 06:48 .

[FlowCytometry]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Jack Crapper wrote...

Agreed here.  On some characters, you can get [near] instant regen for your shields.

Please explain this to me, I have never actually tried stacking shield recharge before, maybe I am missing something. What is the max recharge you can get? I find it hard to Beleive you can get near 100% reduction in shield recharge delay... But I have never looked. How much reduction do the gear/consumable give? The numbers are additive I assume?

The fastest shield recharge you can get atm is w/ the GSo, speccing for shield regen in Fort, shield regen in Fitness, Multicapacitor w/ gear, and shield power cells III. That brings you down to ~0.5-0.7 sec recharge delay, depending on difficulty (since the base recharge depends on difficulty).

Source build:
http://narida.pytalh...ulticapacitor5/

And in practice, I can attest the builder seems accurate in the algorithm (which is, I think, regen = base * (1-totalrechargebonus), so for 85% max regen in GSo's case that means on bronze its 3.5*(1-0.85) = 0.525 seconds), at least from playing the GSo built fully that way. Ya can pretty much stand out in the open even on gold and rarely die till the hard hitters come or you get mobbed, even recovering ur gate before a geth prime or atlas finishes their melee. That would be normally a tough feat for a kit w/ 1150 shields, 412 health, and only 25-33% effective out of cover DR.
I think the shield gate also recharges faster w/ those upgrades, though its a bit more delayed than the shield regen itself.

Ofc, its better when stacked, and sheild power cells contribute the most capping out at 30%.

I agree w/ others that the R5 shield regen can be a strong option in fitness for many kits that can afford to go that far. This is esp considering going into hard cover speeds it up even more. If you can get back into the fight even 0.5 sec earlier, considering how often you can get gated, its technically a dps increase- as well as, ofc, a survivability and mobility increase to not have to use cover for a breather for as long or as often.

Is it a sizeable increase in itself? Nah, but its just one evo. Consider, for example, that most of those 10% weapon damage bonsues people cite as possible competition are additive, which means they'll be more like 5-9% weapon damage increases overall- less so for weapon kits that already have many bonuses, and less effective a choice for power based kits since less of their total damage is coming from weapons.

[Deerber]

Computron2000 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...


With it, you get back shield gate faster and can get back to taking down enemies faster. Ranks 1 to 4 are just gravy. Rank 6 is not particularly useful and can be skipped on most classes other than the special fitness classes like on krogans.

Shieldgate cooldown is independent of shield recharge afaik.

Any backing evidence? This is the normal shield recharge, not shields from shield boost, biotic charge, stim packs or similar (which does not give you back shield gate)

Edit: Just tested it myself using various methods and you're correct. The natural shield regen is independent from shieldgate cooldown

Yes, the shieldgate cooldown is independent from the recharge of your shields, as well as from pretty much everything. Seeing as it's been lowered though, once you regen your shields you pretty much know that your shieldgate's back... Unless you stack lots of shield recharge speed bonuses.

VirtualAlex wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

15% shield recharge is the best thing in the fitness tree (unless kit has special skills)

I just don't understand how you can say that about a.45 second reduction. It doesn't make sense to me.

0.45 seconds might not seem much, but it actually is a freakin' lot. You will see that in game.

Plus, even if 0.45 secs on 3 seconds do not seem so much... How about 0.45 seconds on less than 1.5 seconds? That is a huge difference, almost 33%.

The point is: stack enough shield recharge bonuses and you'll notice how amazing it can be.

[unclemonster]

VirtualAlex wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

my vorcha is actually spec 6/6/6/5/3 (only 3 in fitness) 
full health regen and power damage

I used to only put 3 in cluster grenades and max fitness as I was afraid I wouldn't be able to keep him alive
I actually do much better with less fitness as my full spec clusters are better than the added fitness for survival (kill alot when overwhelmed)

I play him on platinum and destroy with him

Of course that is fine I didn't mean to imply you are making a mistake not maxxing fitness on a vorcha. Simply that a vorcha's fitness points are MUCH stronger than a human, while power points are always the same power.

Take the following two builds, vorcha engineer and human engineer at 6/6/6/6/0. These have both spent thier point to maximum effeciency. But at 0/6/6/6/6 the human is getting a MUCH worse deal than the vorcha because his fitness tree is so bad in comparison.

definitely agree 100%

I used to always max fitness (needed it for confidence I guess)
then I started taking fitness to lvl5 (dat 15% shield recharge rate is VERY noticable to me)
now, it varies by kit as I evolve as a player

[VirtualAlex]

Deerber wrote...
Plus, even if 0.45 secs on 3 seconds do not seem so much... How about 0.45 seconds on less than 1.5 seconds? That is a huge difference, almost 33%.

The number .45s is 15% of 3 seconds. It would no longer be .45 seconds less from 1.5 seconds because 15% of 1.5 is less. Unless you are saying after you already get it down to 1.5 seconds. I don't think it's fair to consider the value of this evolution in combination with multiple other factors. Because you are forced to consider what you are giving up. In this case wearing 3 recharge consumables, you are giving up grenade capacity and or other valueable consumables.

I am strictly talking about points spent vs reward gained. 15% recharge speed has not been noticable to me after my 200+ games of MP or whatever.

[heybigmoney]

Stenun wrote...

The problem with this logic is that it ignores anything other than "Gold difficulty with only Fitness providing a shield boost".

What about Shield Booster V gear? Or the Stronghold Package? Or the Cyclonic Modulator equipment? Or if a Volus is on the team? Or if an enemy has been hit by a power that reduces their damage? Or Silver or Platinum difficulty?

You do mention this logic is applied to "the basis of the damage examples I chose" which is a good point on your part. But that immediately raises the question of what about the examples you DIDN'T choose and why didn't you choose them? Could it be because they didn't back up the conclusion you wanted to make and therefore you selectively chose your examples based on that?
I don't mean to sound harsh and I realise this is just an internet message board and not a science exam but as it stands I don't really think your logic demonstrates much other than, maybe, serving as an encouragement to think about Fitness rather than just automatically take the max bonus. Which, if that was your only intended point, good point well made. :-) Ohterwise, I'm sticking with my Fitness.

Boom.  The zero fitness mantra on this board is incredibly overrated.

[who_likes_chicken]

Your numbers make me feel good about what I've been doing with my characters for months now, based solely on game play experience. I've rarely specced any fitness points, or mainly a maximum of 3 points, unless going for melee builds. I've never really noticed a big difference between any fitness and no fitness with the classes I like to play, as almost none of my favorite classes come with damage reduction, making an extra 200 shield a moot point 90% of the time on Gold. Thanks OP

[upinya slayin]

I have issues deciding fitness alot due to off hose damage recorded on host.
If i'm hosting i know i can run a no fitness build with pretty much any character and be fine. If i'm not hosting i'll die more with the same character and full fitness then i would hosting with no fitness. and its bad cause i can tell its gonna happen but can't prevent it. For instance i turn a corner and see 2 maurders i instantly know i'm dead. They don't fire or anything i know it. So i'll dodge out immediatly and then rubberband back to where i dodged form and be dead.

[templarphoenix]

VirtualAlex wrote...
Wow nobody cares? I spent alot of time on this!

All of my char spec full fitness into health and shield.