172 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

M25105 wrote...

Hackett's brilliant strategy!

-snip-

So the plan of a sane military leader is the hope the enemy stands single file and doesn't do something like dodge your perfectly pricise strike. Or god forbid use a smaller ship to sheild the capital ship as it charges ahead and decimates the fleet, as we have seen soverign do in Me1.

Why is it that no one seems to bring up the much supeior manuverability of the reapers? This gives them almost complete dominance on the battlefield since they can manuver out of the way of most shots from a long range while picking off our own ships fire.

[111987]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Hackett's brilliant strategy!

-snip-

So the plan of a sane military leader is the hope the enemy stands single file and doesn't do something like dodge your perfectly pricise strike. Or god forbid use a smaller ship to sheild the capital ship as it charges ahead and decimates the fleet, as we have seen soverign do in Me1.

Why is it that no one seems to bring up the much supeior manuverability of the reapers? This gives them almost complete dominance on the battlefield since they can manuver out of the way of most shots from a long range while picking off our own ships fire.

They have enhanced turning abilities, but that weakens their kinetic barriers to levels unacceptable in battle, per the Codex. It's why a grounded Reaper has weaker shields as well.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Goneaviking wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Hackett did more for humanity then any other human alive,with the exception of Shepard of course.

Bah, Shepard is little more than Hackett's minion.

Sometimes he is also the The Illusive Man's minion, but he always returns to his true master eventually.

this lol

[Cainhurst Crow]

111987 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Hackett's brilliant strategy!

-snip-

So the plan of a sane military leader is the hope the enemy stands single file and doesn't do something like dodge your perfectly pricise strike. Or god forbid use a smaller ship to sheild the capital ship as it charges ahead and decimates the fleet, as we have seen soverign do in Me1.

Why is it that no one seems to bring up the much supeior manuverability of the reapers? This gives them almost complete dominance on the battlefield since they can manuver out of the way of most shots from a long range while picking off our own ships fire.

They have enhanced turning abilities, but that weakens their kinetic barriers to levels unacceptable in battle, per the Codex. It's why a grounded Reaper has weaker shields as well.

But if it takes much longer for our own ships to fire and actually hit a reaper, than it does for the reapers to return fire and score an almost garunteed hit, that seems to do massive, if not one hit destroying, damage on our vessel, why would this strategy not work again?

To me, it would seem that closing in the distance and surronding the reaper from all sides, rather than simple keeping your distance and hoping your volley's kill it before it completes it's charge and comes at you from an angle you can't defend from, is a saner strategy in this situation.

[111987]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

111987 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Hackett's brilliant strategy!

-snip-

So the plan of a sane military leader is the hope the enemy stands single file and doesn't do something like dodge your perfectly pricise strike. Or god forbid use a smaller ship to sheild the capital ship as it charges ahead and decimates the fleet, as we have seen soverign do in Me1.

Why is it that no one seems to bring up the much supeior manuverability of the reapers? This gives them almost complete dominance on the battlefield since they can manuver out of the way of most shots from a long range while picking off our own ships fire.

They have enhanced turning abilities, but that weakens their kinetic barriers to levels unacceptable in battle, per the Codex. It's why a grounded Reaper has weaker shields as well.

But if it takes much longer for our own ships to fire and actually hit a reaper, than it does for the reapers to return fire and score an almost garunteed hit, that seems to do massive, if not one hit destroying, damage on our vessel, why would this strategy not work again?

To me, it would seem that closing in the distance and surronding the reaper from all sides, rather than simple keeping your distance and hoping your volley's kill it before it completes it's charge and comes at you from an angle you can't defend from, is a saner strategy in this situation.

The Reapers have greater range, yes. That is why the fleets engage them at a distance that neutralizes that advantage; they get close to the Reapers so range doesn't become an issue. Also, at close range manuverability loses its importance because if the Reapers try to outmanuver at close ranges, they'll be hammered and likely destroyed.

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

That wasn't my point at all. My point is that the size and firepower of the fleet means the Reapers have no choice but to fully engage. At that point, they'll be sufficiently distracted, allowing the Crucible to have a fighting chance at docking.

But the Reapers aren't all present in the fight. Most are just hanging out at other worlds. They don't come to help. The size of the galaxy's fleet is irrelevant to these guys.

And I'd love to see them drag that through the front lines while the Reapers are 'distracted'.

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

The Reapers have greater range, yes. That is why the fleets engage them at a distance that neutralizes that advantage; they get close to the Reapers so range doesn't become an issue. Also, at close range manuverability loses its importance because if the Reapers try to outmanuver at close ranges, they'll be hammered and likely destroyed.

Why did they wait until the other fleet was close enough to fire before launching their return volley?

[Cainhurst Crow]

111987 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

111987 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Hackett's brilliant strategy!

-snip-

So the plan of a sane military leader is the hope the enemy stands single file and doesn't do something like dodge your perfectly pricise strike. Or god forbid use a smaller ship to sheild the capital ship as it charges ahead and decimates the fleet, as we have seen soverign do in Me1.

Why is it that no one seems to bring up the much supeior manuverability of the reapers? This gives them almost complete dominance on the battlefield since they can manuver out of the way of most shots from a long range while picking off our own ships fire.

They have enhanced turning abilities, but that weakens their kinetic barriers to levels unacceptable in battle, per the Codex. It's why a grounded Reaper has weaker shields as well.

But if it takes much longer for our own ships to fire and actually hit a reaper, than it does for the reapers to return fire and score an almost garunteed hit, that seems to do massive, if not one hit destroying, damage on our vessel, why would this strategy not work again?

To me, it would seem that closing in the distance and surronding the reaper from all sides, rather than simple keeping your distance and hoping your volley's kill it before it completes it's charge and comes at you from an angle you can't defend from, is a saner strategy in this situation.

The Reapers have greater range, yes. That is why the fleets engage them at a distance that neutralizes that advantage; they get close to the Reapers so range doesn't become an issue. Also, at close range manuverability loses its importance because if the Reapers try to outmanuver at close ranges, they'll be hammered and likely destroyed.

If the reapers have a greater range of attack than the fleet does, than how is it suppose to get far out enough to be outside of the repaers range and still manage to preform an attack? They have a shorter range than the reapers, but suddenly their attacks can somehow reach reapers, despite being too far away for the reapers to attack?

And manuverability does lose it's importance at close range, but what the reapers seem to do is advance towards an enemy at an angle that the fleet cannot defend from in time, say like from above the ships or from the side, so that the ships can't turn in time to engage the reaper before it has a chance to attack them.

That's why hacket having the fleet engage in close range is a better idea, since it eliminates the reapers ability to plan such manuvers without the fleet being able to counter attack.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Indy_S wrote...

111987 wrote...

That wasn't my point at all. My point is that the size and firepower of the fleet means the Reapers have no choice but to fully engage. At that point, they'll be sufficiently distracted, allowing the Crucible to have a fighting chance at docking.

But the Reapers aren't all present in the fight. Most are just hanging out at other worlds. They don't come to help. The size of the galaxy's fleet is irrelevant to these guys.

And I'd love to see them drag that through the front lines while the Reapers are 'distracted'.

I think he obviously means the reapers on the battlefiled, not all the reapers across the entire galaxy. By the time they would arrive to help reinforce the reaper forces, the crucible should be docked and firing.

[111987]

Indy_S wrote...

111987 wrote...

That wasn't my point at all. My point is that the size and firepower of the fleet means the Reapers have no choice but to fully engage. At that point, they'll be sufficiently distracted, allowing the Crucible to have a fighting chance at docking.

But the Reapers aren't all present in the fight. Most are just hanging out at other worlds. They don't come to help. The size of the galaxy's fleet is irrelevant to these guys.

And I'd love to see them drag that through the front lines while the Reapers are 'distracted'.

Doesn't Anderson or Hackett say the Reapers have consolidated the bulk of their forces around Earth? Meaning there aren't thousands of Reapers waiting in the wings?

The fleet does matter to these guys. Even though they will win the battle, the Reapers can't lose too many ships. Their entire purpose is preservation. If they don't focus all their attention on the fleet, they could suffer heavy, heavy losses. Which is tantamount to losing for them.

In summation: the fleet is large enough to engage the Reaper's full attention, so even though they know the Crucible is coming, they can't just wait for it and then swarm it en masse. Thus, the Crucible has a fighting chance of making it to the Citadel, thanks to the additional dreadnoughts protecting it and its own shielding and armor.

[Indy_S]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I think he obviously means the reapers on the battlefiled, not all the reapers across the entire galaxy. By the time they would arrive to help reinforce the reaper forces, the crucible should be docked and firing.

And here I was thinking their FTL was faster. The moment Sword emerged, they should have gotten ready for the Crucible and laid a trap. Of course, I'm trying to make this battle make sense so that would be my mistake here.

[111987]

Indy_S wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I think he obviously means the reapers on the battlefiled, not all the reapers across the entire galaxy. By the time they would arrive to help reinforce the reaper forces, the crucible should be docked and firing.

And here I was thinking their FTL was faster. The moment Sword emerged, they should have gotten ready for the Crucible and laid a trap. Of course, I'm trying to make this battle make sense so that would be my mistake here.

Or you just load up around the Citadel, because you know the Crucible has to end up there.

Mass Relay jumps can have drift of 100,000's of kilometers. Laying a trap could backfire.

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

Doesn't Anderson or Hackett say the Reapers have consolidated the bulk of their forces around Earth? Meaning there aren't thousands of Reapers waiting in the wings?

The fleet does matter to these guys. Even though they will win the battle, the Reapers can't lose too many ships. Their entire purpose is preservation. If they don't focus all their attention on the fleet, they could suffer heavy, heavy losses. Which is tantamount to losing for them.

In summation: the fleet is large enough to engage the Reaper's full attention, so even though they know the Crucible is coming, they can't just wait for it and then swarm it en masse. Thus, the Crucible has a fighting chance of making it to the Citadel, thanks to the additional dreadnoughts protecting it and its own shielding and armor.

However, the Reapers are aware of the Hail Mary. If that gets through, they might lose the battle and all of their ships. They're a hive mind. That should take precedence. The fact that it doesn't means the Reapers are either idiots when it comes to warfare or wanted the thing to get through and if that was the case, why even shoot at it at all?

[111987]

Indy_S wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Reapers have greater range, yes. That is why the fleets engage them at a distance that neutralizes that advantage; they get close to the Reapers so range doesn't become an issue. Also, at close range manuverability loses its importance because if the Reapers try to outmanuver at close ranges, they'll be hammered and likely destroyed.

Why did they wait until the other fleet was close enough to fire before launching their return volley?

Who knows? Probably just a matter of the devs wanting the allied fleet to fire first. Maybe the Reapers wanted the allied fleet in close so they could swarm them with Occuli and Destroyers.

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

Or you just load up around the Citadel, because you know the Crucible has to end up there.

Mass Relay jumps can have drift of 100,000's of kilometers. Laying a trap could backfire.

I'm proposing the Reapers come in behind the Crucible and attack. Given their increased speed, I don't really see how this could backfire.

The endpoint seems the most dangerous place to attempt to stop it. Given that it has to go through a doorway, I don't know why the Reapers don't try something there. Except, of course, for the plot.

[111987]

Indy_S wrote...

111987 wrote...

Doesn't Anderson or Hackett say the Reapers have consolidated the bulk of their forces around Earth? Meaning there aren't thousands of Reapers waiting in the wings?

The fleet does matter to these guys. Even though they will win the battle, the Reapers can't lose too many ships. Their entire purpose is preservation. If they don't focus all their attention on the fleet, they could suffer heavy, heavy losses. Which is tantamount to losing for them.

In summation: the fleet is large enough to engage the Reaper's full attention, so even though they know the Crucible is coming, they can't just wait for it and then swarm it en masse. Thus, the Crucible has a fighting chance of making it to the Citadel, thanks to the additional dreadnoughts protecting it and its own shielding and armor.

However, the Reapers are aware of the Hail Mary. If that gets through, they might lose the battle and all of their ships. They're a hive mind. That should take precedence. The fact that it doesn't means the Reapers are either idiots when it comes to warfare or wanted the thing to get through and if that was the case, why even shoot at it at all?

The Reapers are not a hive mind; they are independent, but their overarching mandate is set by a controlling intelligence. But the Reapers conscioussness are not linked up or anything.

The Reapers on other planets are busy, and if they leave they give up valuable ground.

Don't forget the arrogance of the Reapers. They don't believe they are going to lose this battle.

[InvincibleHero]

Whoa now hold on the plan was Sword diverts attention of the reapers from the hail mary called the crucible. To do that you have to be present as a target. It was a delaying action no more and everyone knew it. Total defeat was months away anyway according to the game.

[111987]

Indy_S wrote...

111987 wrote...

Or you just load up around the Citadel, because you know the Crucible has to end up there.

Mass Relay jumps can have drift of 100,000's of kilometers. Laying a trap could backfire.

I'm proposing the Reapers come in behind the Crucible and attack. Given their increased speed, I don't really see how this could backfire.

The endpoint seems the most dangerous place to attempt to stop it. Given that it has to go through a doorway, I don't know why the Reapers don't try something there. Except, of course, for the plot.

Well, that's what Hackett's fleet is for. Protecting the Crucible from all angles.

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

The Reapers are not a hive mind; they are independent, but their overarching mandate is set by a controlling intelligence. But the Reapers conscioussness are not linked up or anything.

The Reapers on other planets are busy, and if they leave they give up valuable ground.

Don't forget the arrogance of the Reapers. They don't believe they are going to lose this battle.

The first point is untrue: The Reapers have a collective intelligence. They are a single entity. Or the Catalyst was lying and it is an unavoidable retcon.

As to the second, it's all-or-nothing. The galaxy have put their trust in this crude machine. The Reapers have the plans, they know what it can do. Absolute defeat is a possibility here, there's no 'too busy' for this battle.

I believe the third point is a cop-out based on my argument to the second point.

[Indy_S]

111987 wrote...

Well, that's what Hackett's fleet is for. Protecting the Crucible from all angles.

True, but it just means the Reapers have to work for it. As it is, nothing happens and Shield is unused until they reach Earth.

[TurianFrigate]

It's like in LOTR the Battle of the Black Gate. They have no choice, their resources are almost diminished, but they have one thing that could end the war so they take the chance. Also the direct attack actually worked here. The sword fleets purpose was to distract the Reapers when the ground forces are trying to reach the conduit. If he would split the fleets in two parts what would that gain. London is the key to victory so if some ships were in the anywhere else the Reapers would not care.
Also they know that the Reapers have destroyed countless far superior civilizations before so I don't see what other tactic they could use. The list goes on and on, but know this that was the best plan Hackett could use.

[Zaalbar]

¨So Hackett, how did you defeat the Reapers?¨

¨Simple, I sent wave after wave of my very own men knowing full well that the Reapers would eventually hit their kill limit and shut down¨

Modifié par zaalbar76, 28 février 2013 - 09:04 .

[Indy_S]

TurianFrigate wrote...

It's like in LOTR the Battle of the Black Gate. They have no choice, their resources are almost diminished, but they have one thing that could end the war so they take the chance. Also the direct attack actually worked here. The sword fleets purpose was to distract the Reapers when the ground forces are trying to reach the conduit. If he would split the fleets in two parts what would that gain. London is the key to victory so if some ships were in the anywhere else the Reapers would not care.
Also they know that the Reapers have destroyed countless far superior civilizations before so I don't see what other tactic they could use. The list goes on and on, but know this that was the best plan Hackett could use.

Of course, in LOTR the battle is a feint to buy time and distract their enemy. There is nothing so clever being done here. The fact that this worked frustrates me greatly.

[Icinix]

Yeah - something happened to a lot of the characters in ME3.

I think they were all fighting the affects of indoctrination - because all of them went a special kind of stupid at some point.