254 réponses à ce sujet

[KennyAshes]

Nrieh wrote...

Anyone else alittle disappointed that they didn't even bother to put Shepards first name on it? Sure I'm Commander Shepard, but I have a first name.

I'm saying this since EC release. MGS2 HAD player name written on in-game item. It happened many years ago. It's also known (from MEHEM and its creator) that plaques have no single texture, but consist of letters. It does not take much of coding to understand that it COULD have been a variable.

Yes, I see issues for those who named his Shep "Superpuperspacemagicalbeing". But I doubt there are many of such. And they could AT LEAST use first letters, AND full rank. "Lt. Cmdr S. Shepard" - says much-much more, than just some random "Commander".

I would love that but I think they also did this to prevent abuse, because its only normal that there are people with obscene names around. Orso I like to think.

[Karlone123]

I can only think they received word that Anderson was found dead, and Shepard was
still MIA and was still being searched for. So maybe that give the LI hope that Shepard is alive. Plus it causes a big headache if you make it more complex.

[wright1978]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...
Your [sic] looking too much into it. No one has spoken to them about Shepard. They only assume that Shep died because they lost contact with Shep.

Which, of course, it totally plausible and in-character for the squad, given the precedent of Mass Effect 2 and sentiments explicitly expressed by many crewmates throughout the second and third game. [/irony]

"Yeah, we lost contact, so Shepard must be dead. Let's get this ceremony over with. It's not as if it'd be incredibly awkward if we just gave up on her like this, only to learn that she was still alive..."

Yeah it doesn't make much sense that they'd hold a memorial service whilst they were unaware of Shep's fate. Basically the scene is designed to provide closure/clarification for dead Sheps. Live Sheps difference is just a poorly implemented afterthought that makes no logical sense and is extremely unrewarding in terms of clarification/closure and lacks any form of integration with the breath scene.

[CronoDragoon]

Per Tully Ackland, the scene was designed that way to show that your LI refuses to believe you are dead, and that he/she turns out to be correct. "Turns out" being the key phrase there; they didn't know he was still alive at the time.

[crimzontearz]

So yes, once again delivery was atrocious

[CronoDragoon]

I liked the scene. In my mind they got the order from higher up to hold a memorial service for Shepard at X time, then decided "screw it" and took off for the Citadel.

[crimzontearz]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I liked the scene. In my mind they got the order from higher up to hold a memorial service for Shepard at X time, then decided "screw it" and took off for the Citadel.

the scene per se is not bad, its delivery is. A simple line of dialogue or two would have made it much better (as pointed out before)

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I liked the scene. In my mind they got the order from higher up to hold a memorial service for Shepard at X time, then decided "screw it" and took off for the Citadel.

What?, they are somehow in contact with a higher up and yet haven't heard that Shep has been found alive. That makes zero sense to me. At least if they are completely out of comm contact it makes a tiny amount of sense even if it seems completely out of character for the Normandy crew to be doing it.

[Han Shot First]

ElementL09 wrote...

Anyone else alittle disappointed that they didn't even bother to put Shepards first name on it? Sure I'm Commander Shepard, but I have a first name.

I think it should have just displayed the first initial.

If you were John Shepard, it should have showed up as CDR. J. Shepard.

As many times before, I agree with you. Given he's previous record on the whole "staying dead" thing, I'd be hesitant to declare him KIA as well.

They put Dave's & Shepard's names up there because they are known to be the only two that make it to the citadel. Then he/she decides to at least look for bodies first, but with more "hunches and hopes" in their face, than plain rational "making sure".

Basically, Ashley was an avatar of myself in that scene.

Veering off topic a bit, but I wonder if Anderson's death might have been known?

Hackett attempts to contact Shepard shortly after Anderson dies, so I wonder if their conversation might have also been overheard? The military would certainly have an interest in monitoring anything that was going on with any of its soldiers that made it to the beam. If so, Anderson's death might have been suspected by hearing him no longer respond to Shepard.

[jumpingkaede]

Reap_ii wrote...

i think it means that your LI has heard from Alliance Navy that Shep is ok. he would be in surgery somewhere and they were all waiting together as a group to hear the news. your LI would probably not want to be alone waiting to hear if Shep survived or not. if he was dead they were all gonna be there and put his name up. if they got good news, which they did, then we see what we see.

lol this would be the WORST interpretation, if intended by Bioware.

Imagine someone you loved is in the hospital with life-saving/threatening surgery.  Can you really picture youself going, well, we don't know if he's going to die or not, so let's just get the funeral started and buy the casket and stuff.  That way if he dies we'll be prepared.  And if not, then no big.

[wright1978]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

i think it means that your LI has heard from Alliance Navy that Shep is ok. he would be in surgery somewhere and they were all waiting together as a group to hear the news. your LI would probably not want to be alone waiting to hear if Shep survived or not. if he was dead they were all gonna be there and put his name up. if they got good news, which they did, then we see what we see.

lol this would be the WORST interpretation, if intended by Bioware.

Imagine someone you loved is in the hospital with life-saving/threatening surgery.  Can you really picture youself going, well, we don't know if he's going to die or not, so let's just get the funeral started and buy the casket and stuff.  That way if he dies we'll be prepared.  And if not, then no big.

lol

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

It would have been cool if your character name was on that plaque instead of "Commander" (I'm betting they tried and couldnt get it to work without delaying the dlc)

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I liked the scene. In my mind they got the order from higher up to hold a memorial service for Shepard at X time, then decided "screw it" and took off for the Citadel.

What?, they are somehow in contact with a higher up and yet haven't heard that Shep has been found alive. That makes zero sense to me. At least if they are completely out of comm contact it makes a tiny amount of sense even if it seems completely out of character for the Normandy crew to be doing it.

Uh, why's it nonsensical to believe the Normandy and Hackett were in contact before finding Shepard?

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I liked the scene. In my mind they got the order from higher up to hold a memorial service for Shepard at X time, then decided "screw it" and took off for the Citadel.

What?, they are somehow in contact with a higher up and yet haven't heard that Shep has been found alive. That makes zero sense to me. At least if they are completely out of comm contact it makes a tiny amount of sense even if it seems completely out of character for the Normandy crew to be doing it.

Uh, why's it nonsensical to believe the Normandy and Hackett were in contact before finding Shepard?

Well the timeframe would be so tiny. After crucible fires people are going to investigate Citadel and find Shep in at most a span of hours. Yet the Normandy has time to be in contact with Hackett, decide to hold a ceremony, create plaques, hold ceremony. That doesn't make any sense to me personally.

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...

Well the timeframe would be so tiny. After crucible fires people are going to investigate Citadel and find Shep in at most a span of hours. Yet the Normandy has time to be in contact with Hackett, decide to hold a ceremony, create plaques, hold ceremony. That doesn't make any sense to me personally.

Well, look at it this way: the only reason for them to believe Shepard is dead at all is if they see the damage the Crucible has done to the central part of the Citadel (where Hackett knows Shepard is), which they couldn't have known beforehand since they FTL out before the Crucible fires. Since we know the Normandy is disabled and hasn't returned to see that, the only logical conclusion is they've been contacted by the Alliance and told about the devastation of the Citadel.

Edit: I guess they could believe he's dead if they saw him get wasted at the beam or heard the report that no one survived, but when you consider that the Joker being ordered to retreat scene is meant to show that he doesn't want to abandon Shepard, then I think it hints they believe Hackett's "someone made it into the Citadel" to be Shepard.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 mars 2013 - 08:11 .

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Well the timeframe would be so tiny. After crucible fires people are going to investigate Citadel and find Shep in at most a span of hours. Yet the Normandy has time to be in contact with Hackett, decide to hold a ceremony, create plaques, hold ceremony. That doesn't make any sense to me personally.

Well, look at it this way: the only reason for them to believe Shepard is dead at all is if they see the damage the Crucible has done to the central part of the Citadel (where Hackett knows Shepard is), which they couldn't have known beforehand since they FTL out before the Crucible fires. Since we know the Normandy is disabled and hasn't returned to see that, the only logical conclusion is they've been contacted by the Alliance and told about the devastation of the Citadel.

As they are leaving no doubt the readings they pick up would indicate the liklihood of severe damage from the crucible explosion. I find that more believable than the Alliance informing them of the damage to the citadel and yet no one else or them to have explored the citadel prior to Normandy conducting an elaborate memorial service.

Personally i see the only logical conclusion is that they are out of contact but while i don't agree with your argument i can now see how you've constructed it. The overriding impression i'm left with is of players having to stitch together a headcanon to make weak scene hold any water whatsever.

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...
As they are leaving no doubt the readings they pick up would indicate the liklihood of severe damage from the crucible explosion. I find that more believable than the Alliance informing them of the damage to the citadel and yet no one else or them to have explored the citadel prior to Normandy conducting an elaborate memorial service.

Personally i see the only logical conclusion is that they are out of contact but while i don't agree with your argument i can now see how you've constructed it. The overriding impression i'm left with is of players having to stitch together a headcanon to make weak scene hold any water whatsever.

Well, it's not all that elaborate. They just lasered his name onto a pre-made plaque and gathered at the wall. But suffice to say that all things being equal I do think everything proceeded a little quickly. It just doesn't spoil the emotional impact of the scene for me, which I guess is a general sentiment since I don't mind the Harbinger beam scene either.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 mars 2013 - 08:28 .

[Holger1405]

BearlyHere wrote...

Why is it every pro-ender seems to be saying, "Well I'm satisfied, so it doesn't matter if the majority isn't? Go away before they change things, and then I won't be happy."

Bioware will not change the endings, they made that perfectly clear. So my remarks have nothing to do with concerns about a change on the endings.

It's also not a majority vs minority thing. It's about personal satisfaction. Plus I didn't say that  you should go away, (as long as you don't act like a spoiled child that didn't get the right Christmas present as so many here) I only said that your opinion is not the only one.

I don't think it would matter if it was "Bioware's game" if you weren't satisfied too.

It would matter, because it is Bioware's Game. Example: I hated the ending of Matrix, but it never occurred to me to tell the Wachowski Brothers that they have to change it. It was their story.
And then they wrote "V" a Movie I really like...

Bioware is a commercial entity selling a product. They may have the right to their "art,"   but as paying customers, we deserve satisfaction. No business could exist for long if customers were treated like Bioware's have.

You, as a "paying customers" deserves a working Product. The Story belongs to Bioware.   

Jassu1979 wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
Even if you are right, and the Majority of the Fan base is anti ending, it is still Bioware's Game, and they have every right to end it as they see fit.

That's not how a business works - and Bioware is first and foremost a business trying to sell a product.

This is not about a Toaster, it's about Storytelling.  Every publisher, regardless of which department, Movies, Books, TV Shows or Video Games do business. But every Writer or Director tells her/his own story. As a customer you have every right to say that you don't like the way this particular Story is told. But you have no right to tell them that they have to change their story to your satisfaction.  

Does the phrase "the customer is always right" ring a bell? Of course they can do whatever they like with their franchise (just as George Lucas did in horrible, horrible ways with the Star Wars saga), but at the end of the day, it's the customers' purses that decide. Maybe there are enough new shooter fans out there who like the dumbed-down, streamlined gameplay and the terrible endings. But that'd be seriously bad news for the kind of quality games Bioware used to publish before being swallowed by EA.

"The customer is always right" is a nice phrase, it's also noting more than a stereotype.
That the Game play of ME3 is "dumbed-down" is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but I disagrees as I also disagree about the endings and the implication regarding future Bioware products.  

And last but not least, I give you Sherlock Holmes: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wanted to kill him off, feeling that he wanted to write something else and not be stuck with that character. His readers rioted, and Conan Doyle retconned the death at Reichenbach falls to be a clever ruse.
Suffice to say that some of the best and most well-remembered Holmes-tales were written AFTER this happened.

True, but what is the Point? Because Arthur Conan Doyle did it, Bioware has to do it to?
The ME franchise will continue, only Shepard story is over, but that was clear from the beginning.

Now, I would not go so far as to say that pandering to the masses is ALWAYS a good idea. But in the case of Mass Effect 3, I dare to claim that fans like me did NOT campaign for a dumbed down feel-good ending. If anything, the conclusion we received was too glaringly simplistic, too shoddily written to give the trilogy the conclusion it deserved.
I still can't watch the Normandy evacuation scene without feeling intellectually insulted. I still cannot listen to the Catalyst without cringing at almost every ham-fisted, pretentious line.

As I said it before, I disagree with your viewpoint, however, I respect your Opinion. But I am also sure that if Bioware would have made the shallowest, simple-minded happily ever after Happy End, we would not have this discussion, because we wouldn't have a big end debate at all. I respect Bioware for not going down that road.  

[3DandBeyond]

Slappy Ya Face wrote...

Assuming you've got the EC installed, if you choose destroy and had a high enough EMS score, your LI won't stick that plaque with "Commander Shepard" written on it up on the memorial wall in the normandy. Then they smile and seem happy or something and the normandy flies away like usual. 

I really don't get this scene. Obviously the point they're trying to get across is that shaprd didn't die, but how does my crew know? My first answer to that question was "They have coms, so somebody told them" but if that's the case, then why even get that plaque out in the first place? Somebody tell me they've figured out this scene, please. 

Edit:
I'd like to put this up top, since it was the best guess I've seen here. It comes courtesey of nrobbiec.

It seems likely that they recieve word of shepard's survival, possibly from shepard her/himself just as they're about to put the plaque up. This accounts for the other endings, considering that they may have assumed the omni-present explosion killed him/her. Keep in mind that there is no audio in this scene besides the music, and the camera doesn't cut back to the rest of your crew after your LI looks suddenly hopeful. 

There's a good bit of evidence for it, and nothing that contradicts it, but take it with a grain of salt. Either way, I've yet to hear a better explanation. 

I say whatever works for you is great.  Personally, I see it as really lacking enough information to be able to say exactly what happened so you are free to interpret it.

I know that basically what was intended was for the player to get the idea that Shepard survived and that the Normandy was headed to pick him/her up.  The surrounding events are then left your you to imagine.  The whole issue of this becomes problematic for me when I look at what the kid says Destroy will do, what we see it do, and then what BW wants us to know as far as Shepard's fate.  Not much of it makes sense but it's there for the feels-to make you feel Shepard is ok.  It does not work for me even though I fully know it all says "Shepard's alive and his/her friends are on their way".

First problem is we really don't know the extent of what Destroy is supposed to do.  Next we see that blast with fire surround Shepard who still has fragile organic parts.  Then, the whole group is there for the purpose of putting up the name, that was created to go onto that wall.  If Liara at the last second has a psychic realization that Shepard isn't dead-that makes some sense.  She has a half smile indicating she just realized it.  But, Garrus?  Or any of the others?  As far as I know none of them had a connection like you couild believe the Asari did.

The issue with the scenario presented, in thinking Shepard asked for help.  Well, there's no indication that Shepard could even move or speak, but maybe s/he could.  And if Shepard could communicate with others, well why then didn't s/he did so before making a choice?  That never made sense to me that Shepard who may question everything, couldn't even ask EDI or anyone about these choices.  I mean there's no, "hey EDI there's this kid here who says we can destroy the reapers but it'll terminate you too.  You ok with that?"  But in this scenario, later on Shepard can ask for help for him/herself?  Well, for me that would kind of make this worse.

[Jassu1979]

Holger1405 wrote...
As I said it before, I disagree with your viewpoint, however, I respect your Opinion. But I am also sure that if Bioware would have made the shallowest, simple-minded happily ever after Happy End, we would not have this discussion, because we wouldn't have a big end debate at all. I respect Bioware for not going down that road.  

No, Holger, this whole debacle has never been about questions of taste, or mere aesthetic preferences on the part of the fan base. Sure, there are some people who just want blue babies, Tali's animated face, a miracle cure for Thane and no costs and consequences for any of the characters. (I'd also dare to claim that these are the ones who are most likely to be perfectly happy with the "clarification and closure" provided by the EC.)
But the vast majority of the folks who constituted the "Retake"-movement? For them, it was never a question of happy ending vs. dark ending, of just wanting to kill things vs. having an intellectual challenge.

In short, you cannot break this down to mere differences of opinion and taste.
"I like blue cars better than red ones" is a question of opinion and taste.
"This car's engine is faultily constructed and breaks down when you look at it too closely" is not.

I can pinpoint unmistakeable "construction faults" in the ending. Errors that are not subject to opinion or taste.
You could choose to not mind them that much, which bring us back into "de gustibus non disputandum"-territory, but they are there for all to see.

[Holger1405]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
As I said it before, I disagree with your viewpoint, however, I respect your Opinion. But I am also sure that if Bioware would have made the shallowest, simple-minded happily ever after Happy End, we would not have this discussion, because we wouldn't have a big end debate at all. I respect Bioware for not going down that road.   

No, Holger, this whole debacle has never been about questions of taste, or mere aesthetic preferences on the part of the fan base. Sure, there are some people who just want blue babies, Tali's animated face, a miracle cure for Thane and no costs and consequences for any of the characters. (I'd also dare to claim that these are the ones who are most likely to be perfectly happy with the "clarification and closure" provided by the EC.)
But the vast majority of the folks who constituted the "Retake"-movement? For them, it was never a question of happy ending vs. dark ending, of just wanting to kill things vs. having an intellectual challenge.

Referred to the Retake movement that may be, but I still believe that the amount of People complaining about  the endings would not be nearly as high had Bioware delivered a full blown Happy End.  

In short, you cannot break this down to mere differences of opinion and taste.
"I like blue cars better than red ones" is a question of opinion and taste.
"This car's engine is faultily constructed and breaks down when you look at it too closely" is not.

I disagree. As I said before, it's not about a toaster, or a car engine, or anything that can be physically broken and therefore rated as unambiguously broken.  
It's about the end of a story, a emotional story and so, imho, everything is about opinion and taste.

I can pinpoint unmistakeable "construction faults" in the ending. Errors that are not subject to opinion or taste.

You can try, and I would try to argue against it.

You could choose to not mind them that much, which bring us back into "de gustibus non disputandum"-territory, but they are there for all to see.

"de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum"

[Slappy Ya Face]

I leave for a few hours and they've switched to latin.

Modifié par Slappy Ya Face, 03 mars 2013 - 01:36 .

[crimzontearz]

Holger1405 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

Holger1405 wrote...
As I said it before, I disagree with your viewpoint, however, I respect your Opinion. But I am also sure that if Bioware would have made the shallowest, simple-minded happily ever after Happy End, we would not have this discussion, because we wouldn't have a big end debate at all. I respect Bioware for not going down that road.   

No, Holger, this whole debacle has never been about questions of taste, or mere aesthetic preferences on the part of the fan base. Sure, there are some people who just want blue babies, Tali's animated face, a miracle cure for Thane and no costs and consequences for any of the characters. (I'd also dare to claim that these are the ones who are most likely to be perfectly happy with the "clarification and closure" provided by the EC.)
But the vast majority of the folks who constituted the "Retake"-movement? For them, it was never a question of happy ending vs. dark ending, of just wanting to kill things vs. having an intellectual challenge.

Referred to the Retake movement that may be, but I still believe that the amount of People complaining about  the endings would not be nearly as high had Bioware delivered a full blown Happy End.  

In short, you cannot break this down to mere differences of opinion and taste.
"I like blue cars better than red ones" is a question of opinion and taste.
"This car's engine is faultily constructed and breaks down when you look at it too closely" is not.

I disagree. As I said before, it's not about a toaster, or a car engine, or anything that can be physically broken and therefore rated as unambiguously broken.  
It's about the end of a story, a emotional story and so, imho, everything is about opinion and taste.

I can pinpoint unmistakeable "construction faults" in the ending. Errors that are not subject to opinion or taste.

You can try, and I would try to argue against it.

You could choose to not mind them that much, which bring us back into "de gustibus non disputandum"-territory, but they are there for all to see.

"de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum"

Est goes at the end of the passive perifrastic construction

[Slappy Ya Face]

Romani ite domum!

[crimzontearz]

I am not Roman, and I am home