23 réponses à ce sujet

[Seyruun]

As the thread title says. I tried melee and caster  builds, but I find that it seems really really hard to survive early levels without a henchman (even if you space enemies out) and I was just wondering if a fully solo playthrough is feasible.

[cds13]

It is. Just be sure to be equipped with lots of potions of healing and... run a lot! A long ranged weapon could help while running away

[MagicalMaster]

Definitely. Strongly recommended you do the Prelude, though.

If you tell us what type of build you want to play we could help you more (I know I've soloed it as weapon master, fighter, cleric, and sorcerer at a minimum).

[Seyruun]

Honestly I just wanted to try it out with a rogue and a regular fighter (preferrably 2-handed weapon or sword & board) The problem for me was that wherever I went I just died. I could barely 1v1 any of the generic foes, and I took a ton of time splitting them apart, with lots of kiting with ranged weapons involved. Then I would walk up to people like Gang Leaders in the Peninsula and usually lose life to a crit. At that point I usually had the best armor available (for fighters, a Half-Plate from the Peninsula, Studded Leather for Rogue; Tower Shield and a Scimitar on Fighter). Also, I always did the Prelude beforehand. Drinking Health Potions usually puts me in a lock where I heal, and then lose the same amount of life to my enemy's strike.

And I have beaten the game before; that's why I'm trying to do as much of it on my own, but I seem to fail at the basics if you tell me it's so easy.

[HipMaestro]

Seyruun wrote...
Honestly I just wanted to try it out with a rogue and a regular fighter (preferrably 2-handed weapon or sword & board) The problem for me was that wherever I went I just died. I could barely 1v1 any of the generic foes, and I took a ton of time splitting them apart, with lots of kiting with ranged weapons involved. Then I would walk up to people like Gang Leaders in the Peninsula and usually lose life to a crit. At that point I usually had the best armor available (for fighters, a Half-Plate from the Peninsula, Studded Leather for Rogue; Tower Shield and a Scimitar on Fighter). Also, I always did the Prelude beforehand. Drinking Health Potions usually puts me in a lock where I heal, and then lose the same amount of life to my enemy's strike.

And I have beaten the game before; that's why I'm trying to do as much of it on my own, but I seem to fail at the basics if you tell me it's so easy.

Follow MagicMaster's advice.  Use the easy-peasy Prelude to reach at least Level 3 (level 4 with the exploit) so that your toon can withstand a single errant crit.  A trapper rogue is possibly the easiest class to complete the OC, assuming your combat tactics are not ridiculously lame.  They can kill everything without getting their hair mussed.

Like cds already suggested, use a range switch to alarm only 1 or 2 enemies and then immediately kite them away from the mob.  That should be standard operating procedure through any module unless you are completely confident of dominating the adversaries.  Use anything to get the enemy's attention.  Bow, xbow, sling darts,.. whatever is handy and cheap.  Elemental ammo, if you can afford it will save a non-trapper from many serious explosions.

Just as an example, Loxar, usually a scary scythe dude, can be pwned by setting a path of stacked traps in the street nearby (if you need help stacking them, let me know) before you enter his home.  He will follow your toon outdoors to be kited into the trap field.  The dog will remain indoors IIRC.

Those gang bosses can also be kited into a trap field.  As can those blasted bloated dire spiders. Use recon to dtermine what is where.

A fighter just needs a few potions to gain the advantage.  A few Speed (+4 AC & extra APR), a Barkskin (+3 nat AC), an Endurance (+HPs), Bull's Str (+AB) or Cat's Grace for a Dexer.  I always save the potions for bosses since in the start potions can be expensive.  IMO fighter-types are probably the more difficult to advance in the OC due to the crappy ECL they get, inability to counter magical DR like Stoneskin. and generally pitiful saves except for Fort.  But they do get access to a broad range of weaponry & armor to counter some of the deficiencies.

In any event, I almost always soloed every class, even refraining from using familiars and animal companions or summons which will drain combat XP significantly (figure about -10% XP per party member).  Just takes some recon (those Invisibilty potions are worth the expense) and not biting off more than can be chewed.  Flanking allows way too many AoOs which will eventually catch up to you.

Hell, if a geezer like me can own the OC solo... well... anyone can.    When you encounter a specific hurdle that seems overbearing, post for suggestions.  The "easy" comments are meant for general situations rather than specific ones.

Beggar's Nest is usually the easiest to gain those early levels with all the slow moving zombies to kill  Peninsula can be tough because there are lots of foes jammed together most areas and with high perception.  Also, those blasted guards will come out and ruin your kills if you are not fast enough.  Second choice foe me is usually the Docks..

Modifié par HipMaestro, 28 février 2013 - 10:58 .

[Seyruun]

I'm a doofus since it never occured to me just how easy the Beggar's Nest actually is for those early levels.

I started off a halfling rogue (6/18/16/10/10/14; Charisma for flavor purposes really) and she doesn't take damage there. Using a heavy crossbow for 99% of the encounters.

I'm interested in the whole 'trapper' thing (having actually read quite a lot of your posts before, HipMaestro), but never having played a rogue, not even in other modules or PvP, I only wonder where do you get those traps. Do they all come from trap taking with sufficiently high thieving skills?

[tobtor]

As just finished the OC with a rogue: yes, most traps come from recovering them - that gives plenty if you use them for though fights and bosses (though more bags are needed for item manngement). There is some loot once in a while as well. Several shady characters thhoughout the OC also sells them. But I only bought them ocasionally (mostly to stock up on holy traps against though undead areas).

Modifié par tobtor, 01 mars 2013 - 06:35 .

[Seyruun]

Should I bother with retrieving traps early on? Their DC is high so I can't retrieve them yet. The only traps I have in the early levels are the Lesser Spike ones and such and they don't really do anything whatsoever. When am I to expect going serious with trapping?

[HipMaestro]

Seyruun wrote...
Should I bother with retrieving traps early on? Their DC is high so I can't retrieve them yet. The only traps I have in the early levels are the Lesser Spike ones and such and they don't really do anything whatsoever. When am I to expect going serious with trapping?

Sure.
I do.
I usually sell the really pathetic ones and haul around the better ones. Use containers in the city as temporary cache until you need them. ( half pound each adds up)

Let's look at your potential for a sec.  We'll assume a Level 4 rogue with INT 14 (very typical number), k?

That means the Disable skill at Lvl4 out-of-combat is 7 (Disable) + 2 (Set Trap synergy) + 2 (INT) + 20(Take20) + 1 or 2 (Fox Cunning) = 32-33.  Recovery requires an extra 10, so you'll be able to recovery any traps with DC of 22-23 or less.  I see Minor Acid Blob, all Acid Splash, all Frost, Minor/Avg Holy & Negative, all Sonic, all Spike but deadly, and Minor Tangle as potential candidates.  You'll need to wait a few levels until Electrical & Fire ones are possible but they are very danagerous anyway before your HPs are high yes, they can kill you if you are within the AoE when they go off, on Hardcore).

Also, there are rogue mitts and an ammy that will further increase the trap potential.

I think my figures are about correct though I may have oopsed in the calculation.  When you set traps, you will need to remove armor and shield to offset the DEX penalties, but for disarming/recovery, only INT matters.

If you are limited to low-power ones just set LOTS of them.  Also, best is to set different type of saves like some relflex, fort or will ones.  Holy's do not allow a save so will ALWAYS do damage.  For the first time experimenting with trap strategy, try them on a single NPC or 2.  Practice kiting (dragging) them through the preset field.  Eventually you will figurte out the best field pattern tom kill mobs of closing attackers.  I NEVER EVER set a single trap.... always at least a tight field of 10 or more.  Your main education will be in finding out which types of foes will regularly make their saves agianst which types.  Obviously, rogue-types or others with evasion are the hardest to kill but they have their weakness, usually fort or will.

I think you made a mistake with the elevated CHA, though.  See... all that matters for MOST checks is the Persuade skill.  In that case, there should be plenty of skill points to raise it way up (1 pt in Persuade costs 2 CHA).  I beleive you will regret not starting with at least 14 INT.  Not only for the extra skill points, but for Improved KD.  When a rogue faces a mage, it is less dangerous to knock them down than allow them to continue to launch spells.  And IKD (vs. KD) is almost essential for a halfling.  However, all the extra CHA does is slow your progress a bit.  Nothing drastic.  There are a scant few CHA checks but with equipment switch and access to Eagle's, you can usually succeed in those (reload! ;P )

Modifié par HipMaestro, 01 mars 2013 - 08:41 .

[Seyruun]

Well, I've done Docks and Peninsula. The playthrough is remarkably safe, nothing really comes close to killing me, but I have to kite a ton. It's level 7, I haven't multiclassed, though I have considered taking a Ranger or Fighter level in case I decide to become better in melee.

I've only really gotten the Charisma for flavor purposes, but I can see how higher Intelligence would help; as it stands, even with Tomi's quest ring, I have to leave certain traps to wait for later acquisition, which might prove annoying, but I'm patient.

So far the traps aren't too spectacular; I've set up like 8 Medium Spike Traps against the Peninsula boss (after sneaking up on all of his potential hosts for Persuade and one-shotting Alaefin), it brought him down to Wounded (...well, I don't know how the English version goes, but I assume it's like Healthy -> Slightly Wounded -> Wounded -> Heavily Wounded -> Near Death by my translation). With Callik, I brought down his cronies, he ate 5 (Medium and Small) Spike Traps, was Lightly Wounded, had to kite forever. Drawl ate 2 Medium and one Minor Spike Trap, plus an Ice Trap, brought him down to Wounded as well, but still had to kite for 5 real time minutes with a Heavy Crossbow +1 and normal bolts.

Right now dealing with the Gulnan crypts is likely to take me a while; the monsters are backstab immune (which, I assume, by judicious use of traps, shouldn't be that much of an issue later in the game). For Gulnan, I have a Deadly Sound Trap and I assume I will be able to sneak attack her since she isn't undead. I also wonder how I'm gonna deal with the Fight Club in Blacklake; Katja, my rogue, isn't exactly Edward Norton, and the arena doesn't have a lot of space to kite (though I pass most if not all of my tumble checks).

[HipMaestro]

Seyruun wrote...
 I also wonder how I'm gonna deal with the Fight Club in Blacklake; Katja, my rogue, isn't exactly Edward Norton, and the arena doesn't have a lot of space to kite (though I pass most if not all of my tumble checks).

For a toon with 4d6 sneaks?  Should be easy.  The key is bringing along a few Invis potions, draining one as soon as the contest loads (a few Speed potions wouldn't hurt either... one just before rushing in).  Then you can buff in complete security and get that first sneak in easily.  With good AC I suggest ignoring the enemy companions and focus on the contestant himself.  Rinse and repeat for each new contestant.  Fashi, who is usually very tough to injure (DR) is easy to sneak.  Blunt works best on him.  Fortunately, in this cage match there are no true seers, so the method I described works like a charm.  (Dragon cage match is a whole different problem! )

Just some trap FYI info... Spike traps are probably the least effective traps along with Ac id Splash.  They have no secondary action, like slowing or stunning and are both reflex traps.  That means any enemy with Evasion will skip right over them and they get wasted.  Use fire and frost on undead, especially Holy traps.    Minor Acid Blob, other reflex traps, is very inexpensive and extremely an effective stunner.  Once stunned, an enemy can be sneaked to death easily.

As for Gulnan... rush her while invisible and melee!  Else she will start casting nasty spells from range and never move in your direction until all spells have been exhausted.

Which brings up a few combat round strategy tips...

If you haven't already done so, take Weapon Finesse, pretty much a staple of any DEXer.  An archer will eventually face a situation where melee is a better strategy (like against some casters).  You won't be able to hit in melee much without that feat.  For a rogue, a rapier works very nicely (or shortie or dagger).

Don't be afraid to play the "waiting game" against self-buffers.  Pack a few Invis potions, stand outside their AoE range and wait until their buffs fade.  Then rush the melee attack.  Of course, it's best to make them aware of your presence a bit at the start.  (I usually just force an attack from range and then go *poof* while they exhaust their buffs.)

Modifié par HipMaestro, 03 mars 2013 - 03:01 .

[Seyruun]

I just wanted to report my progress and show off appreciation for help and showing me a cool character concept.

The Helm's Hold was a little annoying due to the undead again; I died numerous times to the Bodaks and I still deal with them slowly. Despite not being an archer primarily, I did get Called Shot for a feat (nothing else really is appealing; I got Dodge at level 1, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Short Sword) and now Called Shot), and it helped me out later on quite immensely. The Desther fight was more or less a breeze, I took out his protection with a combination of stealth and crossbow, he ate a trap field and was quickly down.

Also, before that, the Blacklake fights at the arena turned out to be easy and not even potion intensive; I learned that I can hit Hide as soon as I'm teleported to the arena and I am free to have a Sneak Attack or to set up a trap. As such, it was much easier than I thought it would be, but then again, I left that challenge for the last moment of the act. Notably, the ever-annoying Swords of Never have also been dealt with rather easily.

My Rogue has started off Chapter 2 with Mutamin's challenge. I use a Heavy Crossbow with a Short Sword Feyduster, switching to a Mace of Disruption against undead. I've got a lot of gold so stocking up on potions and traps isn't a problem, though I do wish I could have more Bags of Holding (as it is, I've miscellaneous items stashed all over Port Llast since they're so heavy). As of right now, I don't really have issues, except perhaps with speed against undead encounters.

Big thanks to cds13, MagicalMaster, tobtor and of course HipMaestro for the bestowed wisdom - the playstyle is fun!

[PracticalKat]

Hi there, not meaning to hijack your thread, but would appreciate it if you could say how you dealt with the two rooms before you get to Desther? I find there are just too many undead to deal with on my own. I'm a level 8 Rogue, with Dodge, Weapon Finesse and Point Blank Shot. I've tried setting traps but they all come running before I've laid more than four..

[Seyruun]

Well, I had the mind to make a save game on another slot before leaving the Chapter 1. It came in handy when I got to the Helm's Hold Courtyard, at which point I said "You've got to be kidding me" to myself, returned back to Neverwinter through the save slot, and made a Mace of Disruption at Marrok's (Mace +1 and Holy Water, as I recall). Made it slightly less painful.

To this day I don't really have a good way to deal with Undead other than "Put on that one belt that gives damage reduction against blunt weapons, sic my Rogue on them and go watch Fifteen to One on TV".

By the two rooms before Desther you mean the two rooms that are on the last level of Helm's Hold? I remember having to load the game there. I don't know why can't you just set the traps before entering the door; I think the undead won't even open the doors on their own (which is the fact that I like to abuse against certain "stupid" mobs).

Aside from getting yourself a blunt weapon, perhaps buffing your stats with potions and setting traps before entering the doors... Nope, I don't know what else could work.

By the way, I think that Called Shot would work better instead of Point Blank Shot. I'm not playing an archer rogue myself (I melee more often due to the effect on my Feyduster) but slowing someone down while kiting him was plenty helpful, plus I don't think you're exactly swimming in feats.

[PracticalKat]

Thanks for the suggestions, Seyruun, I'll give them a go. Yes, I was meaning the two rooms on the last level of Helm's Hold. For some reason, as soon as my first trap is set the undead come out to have a look. That said, I'm not playing on hardcore so maybe that's why my experience isn't the same as yours. I've definitely not faced a Bodak there either, and I've played that level over a number of times now..

I'll be relevelling my character to get Called Shot instead of Point Blank Shot, as several people have recommended it although I've never used it. I'm going Champion of Torm after Rogue 10, and aim to use the bonus feats to get Weapon Focus Longbow, Improved Critical Longbow and Shield Proficiency before I finish the OC. Anyway, I'm enjoying playing the Rogue a lot!

[MagicalMaster]

brendonwp wrote...

Thanks for the suggestions, Seyruun, I'll give them a go. Yes, I was meaning the two rooms on the last level of Helm's Hold. For some reason, as soon as my first trap is set the undead come out to have a look. That said, I'm not playing on hardcore so maybe that's why my experience isn't the same as yours. I've definitely not faced a Bodak there either, and I've played that level over a number of times now..

Question - do you have any AI override or something?

brendonwp wrote...

I'll be relevelling my character to get Called Shot instead of Point Blank Shot, as several people have recommended it although I've never used it. I'm going Champion of Torm after Rogue 10, and aim to use the bonus feats to get Weapon Focus Longbow, Improved Critical Longbow and Shield Proficiency before I finish the OC. Anyway, I'm enjoying playing the Rogue a lot!

Point Blank Shot is generally more important.  Called Shot reduces your AB by 4 when you use it and has to overcome any potential Discipline on the target.  Without AA levels, your AB might not be high enough to consistently land the hits, and if the opponent is immune to ability decrease and/or movement speed decease, it may not help you with kiting at all.

In other words, Called Shot will tend to help you against opponents weak enough that you shouldn't really need the help.  Firing a shot in close range without Point Blank Shot will be 5 AB worse (you get a -4 penalty to AB without it) and you also lose 1 damage.   You can also kite most mobs without requiring Called Shot anyway.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 10 mars 2013 - 05:06 .

[PracticalKat]

@MM - I've got Tony K's AI. I'm going to give Called Shot a try, and revert it if it doesn't work for me. For close range, I have weapon finesse so I can always just pull out my rapier or mace.

[MagicalMaster]

brendonwp wrote...

@MM - I've got Tony K's AI.

That...might be the problem with mobs coming looking for you.

[MrZork]

Yes. Tony K's definitely makes the mobs smarter. And, specifically mentioned in the install notes is that mobs can wander out of rooms with closed (but not locked, IIRC) doors. That mod is, IMO, very worthwhile, though. The smarter creatures add to the challenge of the OC.Obviously, there are times, like with a rogue facing sneak-immune undead in an area that doesn't lend itself to kiting, when that extra challenge is tough to overcome. But, you will figure it out.

BTW, in addition to the mace of disruption, a weapon (or ammo) that does elemental damage tends to be useful against undead. Among the Chapter One weapons that Marrok will make, the desert wind scimitar and astral blade are quite nice. For a finesse wielder, don't forget the storm light hammer.

Also, if your rogue has UMD, the Helm's Hold merchant sells some useful items. The wand of missiles is a good way to do low-but-reliable damage to hard-to-hit and elemental immune undead (like shadow fiends). The scrolls flame arrow (a little fire damage against one creature), wall of fire (usefull in hallways, if they are coming for you, make sure they take a little damage getting to you), and summon creature iv (better they attack the spider than you) can help, too. Also, animate dead will give you a tyrantfog zombie (crit-, level/ability drain-, disease/poison- and death magic-immune) summons who can stand there and soak some damage with his 15/+1 DR while you thin the herd of enemy undead with your fire arrows.

[cds13]

A strong enemy boss is still manageable even with a sling given the fact that you need to space him out, hit and get on running away. The whole process could take a very long time, Gulnan being the worst to face, 9 shots over 10 simply miss her and it takes at least ten minutes of patience (and I had a ranger with longbow focus)... add the fact that her hi spell resistance gets your magic down.
Hope you didn't install the Tony K AI or this could be really harder: when your enemies get into the "near death" status they will boost their speed giving you a narrower space in between (note, this happens while you're at the top difficulty level).
A rogue is better at the hide and shoot: turn the corner (you need one!), get hidden, await the enemy and shoot, run to the next corner and repeat; at least the first shot is a sneak attack and if you used paralyzing traps the journey will be much easier.
Oh, Mr Zork, with AI installed I noticed that they even smash locked doors if they notice an enemy around. Enemies can taunt, knockdown, disarm conjure creatures, animal companions, familiars etc.

Just a tip if you are a XP "maximizer" to achieve levels sooner (you need as always the Tony K AI): while killing summoned creatures doesn't get you any XP, companions and familars DO! So, kill the casters at last not before, yes, it will take much longer but the reward is all there in the end.
Save often. I make a save for every killed low level grunt and even for a single succesful blow on a tough enemy.

[PracticalKat]

@MrZ - Yes, I've pushed UMD right up - I'll check out that wand - and maybe another Summon Creature!

@cds13 - Luckily I'm not playing hardcore! Thanks, I'll bear the tips in mind. I wish there were more corners on the top level..

[MrZork]

cds13, now that you mention it, I do recall the enemies bashing door if they can hear your behind them. Still a good thing, IMO. And, you can turn that in your favor, as well. Putting a trap (or several) on a door before they notice you can cause them to trigger the traps when you open the door to get to you.

Another nice improvement of Tony K's AI is that creatures try to use their skills. You mentioned taunting, and many creatures with stealth skills will try to be stealthy when they sense danger. That adds a little flavor instead of the stealthy mobs always standing around in broad daylight instead of trying to sneak up on their targets.

I agree that the auto-hasting option is too much. It's easy to turn off, though. I think there were one or two other options that I leave off as well, though I don't recall them now.

brendonwp, one of the things that makes the final level tough (especially so for spellcasters) is that that it is fairly small. Not only does that complicate ranged kiting tactics, but it means that the mobs may wander so close to the entrance that you can't rest there. Once, I had a caster who pretty much exhausted himself with the undead in the two outer rooms and needed to rest before taking on Desther and the others in the main room. Luckily, I had a minor summons and an invisibility potion left. So, I snuck into the main room invisibly. Then walked to the far corner and called the summons and put him in "hold your ground" mode. When Desther & Co rushed him, I (still invisible) rushed back out and rested.

[PracticalKat]

@MrZ - I've never used invisibility potions strategically like that. I'll have to give it a go, as I'm well stocked up on them. Looks like I'll have to wait for the weekend before I get any gaming time though.

[PracticalKat]

OK, I just managed to solo the last level and Desther! It took a scroll of Silence and a Wand Of Missiles and some luck, but once I had a number of strong traps laid the numbers were thinned out enough that I could pick the remainders off with Piercing Arrows and the Wand. The Wand really helped me to avoid being drained by the shadows.
In the end I didn't even use my scrolls of Summon Creatures. I laid another trap field for Desther, picked off the Ritual Creatures with arrows and killed the Skeleton Chieftain on the trap field. Then it was just a matter of time (and Invisibility Potions) before I managed to sneak attack Desther enough to make him yield.
Thanks to Seyruun for starting this thread and inspiring me to go solo, and thanks to all for the comments here!