My arrows rarely track to hit enemies. The Assault Trooper's highlighted, I press B, and then they move three feet to the right and the enemy unhighlights because I can't aim while holding B so the arrows miss. This isn't all the time, but it's common enough to annoy me. Plus, I only have about 5 melee consumables, so once I use those his damage becomes even worse.
Talon Engineer Omni-Bow Tips
Débuté par
Eric Fagnan
, févr. 28 2013 06:03
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#102
Posté 28 février 2013 - 07:58
JerZey CJ
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Yeah, I had him set up like that and he still did next to no damage at all with his bow(on SILVER!) and we shouldn't have to rely on consumables that we may not have to make him viable. It also doesn't help that to get the max amount of damage out of his bow, you have to forgo ALL health upgrades, which makes him super squishy with no way to regen shields.
Modifié par JerZeyCJ2, 28 février 2013 - 07:59 .
#103
Posté 28 février 2013 - 07:58
GroverA125
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So, are you telling we're out of luck in terms of balance changes? Are we actually going to see a well-needed damage increase?
I use a variety of melee-focused classes, including a tech-bursting Paladin, a melee-charging Slayer, A Melee Turian Sentinel, and have used a krogan once in a while. All of these have no trouble killing a basic troop (even armored ones like Cannibals) with their melees, even on gold and platinum difficulties, and unlike the Talons, they gain other benefits to their offensives. For example, Slayer gets a power damage buff for killing, as well as melee damage at 5a. Turian gets more weapon damage, which when combined with a Valkyrie, applies excellent amounts of DPS downrange. Krogan is a krogan, and as such he lives of meleeing anything that isn't a banshee.
The talon though, he's got nothing. The damage is too low to reliably take out a standard troop in one shot. Even using a omni-bayonet on a shotgun with gear sets and maxed evolutions focused on melee it still takes up to 4 hits to take out a standard trooper.
This is the only melee class I've seen that is literally requires a high-level melee equipment to be used to even remotely work past the silver mark, and even then, he's pretty damn sucky. You're justification of his low power is "always maximizing melee damage, however in doing so he lacks shields that most melee classes have to make up for the required exposure to get shots in (which he needs multiple of), so he dies a lot. Then on top of that he literally requires his bow to be always firing ammo to even hurt anything on the gold mark (let alone platinum here, where the majority of enemies simply laugh at even the highest damage his bow can deal while they drop him before he can even react). A fully charges concussive arrow in a fully charged bow won't even kill a standard troop, and the only chance it has of actually killing them is by launching them off edges, which is unlikely due to the projectile knowing them backwards and downwards most of the time.
Not only this, his grenade replenish times are insanely high, surely the class which you have just said yourself "...ensure you always have power charges when you fire your bow." should recharge charges faster than 25-30 seconds with a lightweight weapon, so that other classes, such as the AIU, Turian Ghost, and other grenade-using classes actually have any to use. Their grenades are visibly better in conflicts and overall output, so they should be taking priority over the guy who doesn't really deal sufficient damage even when he is using them.
Melee is what this class is all about, one of the devs (who I even believe WAS you) said during the livestream that he should be using the bow most, if not all of the time. However, outside of Silver and Bronze, his bow is literally useless for damage. The only way he can effectively work on Gold and Platinum is by utilizing the Cain Trip mine, which we all know damn well is the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game currently.
As a melee-focused class, it is imperative for him to have a much greater base melee damage than what he has currently now. I mean, his power tree goes up to 100% melee, unlike most we see, and he even gets +50% more if he gets a kill with the bow (IF he gets a kill with a bow), more than this, his two primary powers factor in the bows base damage, which means that it is even more important to have a higher damage, yet he still lacks sufficient power to eliminate even the most basic threats effectively in the two highest difficulties, without running through grenades faster than a child runs through new toys.
I use a variety of melee-focused classes, including a tech-bursting Paladin, a melee-charging Slayer, A Melee Turian Sentinel, and have used a krogan once in a while. All of these have no trouble killing a basic troop (even armored ones like Cannibals) with their melees, even on gold and platinum difficulties, and unlike the Talons, they gain other benefits to their offensives. For example, Slayer gets a power damage buff for killing, as well as melee damage at 5a. Turian gets more weapon damage, which when combined with a Valkyrie, applies excellent amounts of DPS downrange. Krogan is a krogan, and as such he lives of meleeing anything that isn't a banshee.
The talon though, he's got nothing. The damage is too low to reliably take out a standard troop in one shot. Even using a omni-bayonet on a shotgun with gear sets and maxed evolutions focused on melee it still takes up to 4 hits to take out a standard trooper.
This is the only melee class I've seen that is literally requires a high-level melee equipment to be used to even remotely work past the silver mark, and even then, he's pretty damn sucky. You're justification of his low power is "always maximizing melee damage, however in doing so he lacks shields that most melee classes have to make up for the required exposure to get shots in (which he needs multiple of), so he dies a lot. Then on top of that he literally requires his bow to be always firing ammo to even hurt anything on the gold mark (let alone platinum here, where the majority of enemies simply laugh at even the highest damage his bow can deal while they drop him before he can even react). A fully charges concussive arrow in a fully charged bow won't even kill a standard troop, and the only chance it has of actually killing them is by launching them off edges, which is unlikely due to the projectile knowing them backwards and downwards most of the time.
Not only this, his grenade replenish times are insanely high, surely the class which you have just said yourself "...ensure you always have power charges when you fire your bow." should recharge charges faster than 25-30 seconds with a lightweight weapon, so that other classes, such as the AIU, Turian Ghost, and other grenade-using classes actually have any to use. Their grenades are visibly better in conflicts and overall output, so they should be taking priority over the guy who doesn't really deal sufficient damage even when he is using them.
Melee is what this class is all about, one of the devs (who I even believe WAS you) said during the livestream that he should be using the bow most, if not all of the time. However, outside of Silver and Bronze, his bow is literally useless for damage. The only way he can effectively work on Gold and Platinum is by utilizing the Cain Trip mine, which we all know damn well is the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game currently.
As a melee-focused class, it is imperative for him to have a much greater base melee damage than what he has currently now. I mean, his power tree goes up to 100% melee, unlike most we see, and he even gets +50% more if he gets a kill with the bow (IF he gets a kill with a bow), more than this, his two primary powers factor in the bows base damage, which means that it is even more important to have a higher damage, yet he still lacks sufficient power to eliminate even the most basic threats effectively in the two highest difficulties, without running through grenades faster than a child runs through new toys.
Modifié par GroverA125, 28 février 2013 - 07:59 .
#104
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:00
ROBOTICSUPERMAN
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is it just me, or does it only fire 3 ap arrow shots from the bow, despite saying it fires 4 arrows(or 5 with the evo) is this the reason the damage is so low...because its one shot short?
#105
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:03
DinkumGem
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The trip mines are difficult for the enemy to set off. There is definitely something odd here. My only success with him thus far is to spam a spawn with trip mines since this is the only way to ensure they will accually go off.
#106
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:06
Daynan
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I'll give this a try tonight.Eric Fagnan wrote...
NuclearTech76 wrote...
......
Eric, would it be better to slap on the power amp and melee stunner on the pistol? The heavy blade gives 50% melee bonus versus 25% for the stunner but the power amp is an additional 30%.
Always maximize melee damage.
I was frustrated by using the bow and considered training concussive up to rank 6 for cryo explosion damage, but I think I'll take armour-piercing 6a now.
I'll make sure I'm hosting since the heavy omni-bow staying nocked as a client was pissing me off. =)
#107
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:12
Eric Fagnan
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mcjihge2 wrote...
Does increasing the power damage increase the damage the omni bow does?
You mention using the omni blade because it adds multiplicative melee damage, would using the power magnification mod also add 1) multiplicative damaage and 2) bow damage?
EDIT
Ive currently set him up with a pistol with the melee stunner and the power magnifier. I searched for a silver game, got dropped in a game in progress and found that i was dropping brute in 2 shots of the armour arrows, but then i finished the game and found it was a bronze game
The new power mods for pistols and SMGs are not multiplicative so they give less damage.
#108
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:15
eddieoctane
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The inability to aim while charging an arrow is bad. But what really gets me is the apparent inability for the Talon to grab an enemy. Despite the grab icon showing up, all I seem to do is pop up from cover, waste a charge, and proceed to get shot by the enemy who should be a corpse behind me. If the Talon isn't going to be able to grab enemies, then the icon should at least not appear. It's a reflexive action to take the easy kill, and all this does is waste ammo and get me killed.
I'm starting to wonder if any of this crap gets beta tested, or we are just viewed as lab rats.
I'm starting to wonder if any of this crap gets beta tested, or we are just viewed as lab rats.
#109
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:16
Chealec
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Hmm just topped the scoreboard with him, on gold in a game with friends against Cerberus...
I think the trick is to only spec into 1 bow type or the other (much like the Krogan Warlord), max out melee and power damage and grenade regen in the passive tree and use either a shotgun with omni-blade or, as I did, a pistol (Suppressor) with pistol stunner and power magnifier.
Sort of temped to put the Talon on the Talon though, just because... but the Suppressor has the advantage of extreme accuracy at range and excellent headshot damage.
Your biggest problem is that the wind-up time on the bow leaves you exposed for a long time when you're really kinda squishy... that, and Atlases (or Dragoons if they get in close). You NEED to stay at range, once something is in your face you're pretty much stuffed so I'm guessing this kit will suck on Glacier.
Oh - and for some reason, the Thermal Clips reappeared this game so I was actually able to restock grenades much easier. I did get killed trying to get to ammo boxes a couple of times though.
He's not as bad as I initially thought, but I'd not want to use him on one of the smaller maps.
I think the trick is to only spec into 1 bow type or the other (much like the Krogan Warlord), max out melee and power damage and grenade regen in the passive tree and use either a shotgun with omni-blade or, as I did, a pistol (Suppressor) with pistol stunner and power magnifier.
Sort of temped to put the Talon on the Talon though, just because... but the Suppressor has the advantage of extreme accuracy at range and excellent headshot damage.
Your biggest problem is that the wind-up time on the bow leaves you exposed for a long time when you're really kinda squishy... that, and Atlases (or Dragoons if they get in close). You NEED to stay at range, once something is in your face you're pretty much stuffed so I'm guessing this kit will suck on Glacier.
Oh - and for some reason, the Thermal Clips reappeared this game so I was actually able to restock grenades much easier. I did get killed trying to get to ammo boxes a couple of times though.
He's not as bad as I initially thought, but I'd not want to use him on one of the smaller maps.
#110
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:17
NuclearTech76
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They have a 1.5 sec arming period which may be effected by lag. The fourth one spam will set off the first one deployed.DinkumGem wrote...
The trip mines are difficult for the enemy to set off. There is definitely something odd here. My only success with him thus far is to spam a spawn with trip mines since this is the only way to ensure they will accually go off.
Banshees can teleport over them. I have personally see a hunter walk right through a laser off host without the mine going off as well. (Could be lag related)
#111
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:18
megawug
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Eric, sorry if this has been answered, but has the missing skill points been fixed?
#112
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:19
ntrisley
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He really needs to have Toughness added onto the character.
He really also needs to have the Arrows not counting as powers, but instead as projectiles. There's no reason that the Armor Piercing Arrow should not actually be able to pierce a Guardian's shield.
The character as it stands is too squishy.
Unless you're boosting his health+shields up to Turian levels, he's going to remain squishy.
Especially when taking into consideration that the bow removes you from cover to fire.
Oh! And something else to take into consideration:
When an enemy is just barely at the end of the tripmine's laser, it almost never will detonate.
He really also needs to have the Arrows not counting as powers, but instead as projectiles. There's no reason that the Armor Piercing Arrow should not actually be able to pierce a Guardian's shield.
The character as it stands is too squishy.
Unless you're boosting his health+shields up to Turian levels, he's going to remain squishy.
Especially when taking into consideration that the bow removes you from cover to fire.
Oh! And something else to take into consideration:
When an enemy is just barely at the end of the tripmine's laser, it almost never will detonate.
Modifié par ntrisley, 28 février 2013 - 08:20 .
#113
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:21
Valiantheart99
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OneTrueShot wrote...
I think the problem isn't how 'good' he is, it's his viability in gold. I used that exact same build on Gold along with two other players whom I consider wholly competent, and the only conclusion we could come to for Gold and above is to spec full power damage and use the cain mines whilst using him as a dynamic weapons platform, only using the bow as a debuff instead of an offensive.
Exactly this. I ran the all melee build out of the gate. The damage is incredibly anemic.
#114
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:22
Antaresss
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The omni bow could use some damage increase.
#115
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:24
codename2o2
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Funnily enough, I followed the exact same steps when I first unlocked him and guess what? It was still more efficient for me to just fire my weapon rather than use the bow. I appreciate the effort, I really do and I want to like this character, but the way his signature weapon was implemented just feels sluggish and underwhelming.
I'd say buff his base melee damage and maybe give him a small buff to base health and shields.
I'd say buff his base melee damage and maybe give him a small buff to base health and shields.
#116
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:26
wunjilau
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A nice change would be to simply reverse the charge mechanism, such that a quick shot fires at one target, and the charged shot spreads the radius outward. This would have the effect of helping reduce squishiness by reducing the time the Talon spends exposed.
I get the idea that the bow is supposed to be charging up for single-target damage, but the rationale could as easily be that the bow is charging up five separate mass effect fields to throw multiple bolts. (Not that it matters, but this makes more sense in relation to RL archery, where shooting one arrow at full draw is [for most folks] much quicker and more straightforward than setting up a trick shot.)
I get the idea that the bow is supposed to be charging up for single-target damage, but the rationale could as easily be that the bow is charging up five separate mass effect fields to throw multiple bolts. (Not that it matters, but this makes more sense in relation to RL archery, where shooting one arrow at full draw is [for most folks] much quicker and more straightforward than setting up a trick shot.)
Modifié par wunjilau, 28 février 2013 - 08:28 .
#117
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:26
CWG07
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Thanks for the tips!
I tried playing the class last night and had problems with the mines not going off when mobs walked through the red lines.
Hey, Can we get a tips and tricks thread for the Cobalt Vanguard? I haven't seen anyone play it and all claims it is a broken class.
I tried playing the class last night and had problems with the mines not going off when mobs walked through the red lines.
Hey, Can we get a tips and tricks thread for the Cobalt Vanguard? I haven't seen anyone play it and all claims it is a broken class.
#118
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:28
JerZey CJ
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How to make the Talon better:
More health(if we're going to have to sacrifice health for melee damage, give him more than generic human health)
Bow damage increase(it is supposed to be his main weapon and should not need to rely on consumables to make it viable. It should have a base damage of 800 with a maxed out bow doing as much damage as a Batarian heavy melee plus his additional power damage)
Let the bow hold a charge, this way we can prime a heavy shot with it, then aim and press the button again to fire
Increase AP and concussive arrow damage, they literally do next to no damage
Allow AP arrows to pierce Guardian shields and light cover
More health(if we're going to have to sacrifice health for melee damage, give him more than generic human health)
Bow damage increase(it is supposed to be his main weapon and should not need to rely on consumables to make it viable. It should have a base damage of 800 with a maxed out bow doing as much damage as a Batarian heavy melee plus his additional power damage)
Let the bow hold a charge, this way we can prime a heavy shot with it, then aim and press the button again to fire
Increase AP and concussive arrow damage, they literally do next to no damage
Allow AP arrows to pierce Guardian shields and light cover
#119
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:30
Adragalus
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In other words, do exactly what I was doing, and not managing a half-bar off a silver assault trooper with a max damage AP charged shot?
Okay.
Okay.
#120
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:35
wes60620
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Megakoresh wrote...
Fixing the bugs on him so he is actually playable would be nice first and foremost.
A person cant play a new kit or master its abilities instantly and all of a sudden its bugged..... ya gotta love it.
#121
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:37
jandrewcepticon
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I believe he needs more health and shields, or a buff to toughness to some degree. Being exposed just to shoot 1 arrow can be troublesome on gold when you have 2-4 enemies shooting towards you.vMaybe if we were given the ability to charge while in cover or without a target, then I can see this guy being utilized for his bow. Other than that, I've only seen Talons use their mines most of the time.
I really want to like this kit, I really do.
I really want to like this kit, I really do.
#122
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:38
mrcanada
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Even with stacked melee, the bow is marginally effective at best and you go down like a fly. Massive buffs are needed to it.
#123
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:41
ryoldschool
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Eric, thanks for explaining how it was meant to work. I'll give this guy a try now. I know that your team is surprised at the reception this character has received. Thanks for your team's work on this DLC.
#124
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:42
The Makr
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I like the Talon a lot, but the Bow is not a good idea to spec into, even in the way you detailed.
What you are suggesting is that you dedicate 42 skill ponts, Specific weapon mod, two specific comsumables and specific gear and then your bow will work. Plus you will have to totally neglect your fitness so you will be squishy. Not only are you squishy but using the bow and aiming on consoles leaves you very vulnerable. Plus you add in the opportunity cost of what you lose out on by being forced into certain gear, consumables and mods.
I WANT to be able to use the bow, but you crafted a character that is much more effective on Gold NOT using the bow. Using the bow on this guy is not as good as handing him a Javalin, Raider and going to town with Cain Mines. You need to redo this guy to make the bow a vialble alternative build without having to sacrifice so much in order to make the bow even work.
It's a real shame because the bow is such an awesome concept. I would much rather spec him into bow, but right now that build severely hamstrings him.
What you are suggesting is that you dedicate 42 skill ponts, Specific weapon mod, two specific comsumables and specific gear and then your bow will work. Plus you will have to totally neglect your fitness so you will be squishy. Not only are you squishy but using the bow and aiming on consoles leaves you very vulnerable. Plus you add in the opportunity cost of what you lose out on by being forced into certain gear, consumables and mods.
I WANT to be able to use the bow, but you crafted a character that is much more effective on Gold NOT using the bow. Using the bow on this guy is not as good as handing him a Javalin, Raider and going to town with Cain Mines. You need to redo this guy to make the bow a vialble alternative build without having to sacrifice so much in order to make the bow even work.
It's a real shame because the bow is such an awesome concept. I would much rather spec him into bow, but right now that build severely hamstrings him.
#125
Posté 28 février 2013 - 08:43
uv23
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One of my biggest problems when trying this class has been getting mugged by melee enemies, which happens no matter how careful you try to be. In those instances, not having a conventional melee knockback is really harmful. I would rather see him have a conventional melee attack, and use buttons to fire the bow powers. Also base 500 health/shields is brutal.
Modifié par uv23, 28 février 2013 - 08:43 .
