64 réponses à ce sujet

[corlist]

TL;DR
Almost Everything works.
Use a shotgun omniblade.
Thanks to peddro for the help. No thanks to Origin.

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Formula:
Melee damage (including hammer)
base_melee * defence_multiplier * (1 + sum_melee) * melee_weapon_mod

biotic/electrical hammer
base_damage * defence_multiplier * multiplier bonus * (1 + sum_power) * melee_weapon_mod

base damages
light melee: 360
last 3-combo hit: 720
krogan heavy melee/hammer: 675
electrical hammer: 250
biotic hammer: 750

defence multipliers
light melee/ hammer: 100% to all
last 3-combo hit/ krogan heavy melee: 75% to armour, 100% to all
last 3-combo hit (enchanted): 100% to all
electrical hammer: 300% to shields & barriers
biotic hammer: 150% armour & barriers

multiplier bonuses:
biotic hammer: 50% bonus to armour evo (5B) gives 1.75x
electrical hammer: 75% bonus to shields and barriers (4A) gives 1.75x

electrical hammer: Fire damage increase damage to armour by 1.5x, this also benefits the 250 damage DoT.

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sample calculations:
sample warlord
tech armour: DR/ power bonus (30%)
biotic hammer: damage/ armour
electrical hammer: S&B damage/ chill/ radius & combo
rage: all melee
strength enhancer III
power amplifier IV
shotgun omniblade V
juggernaut shield V

----------

tech armour on, martial artist active, rage active
eletrical hammer + hammer HM vs gold phantom (3075 shields, 1687.5 health)

total melee bonus: 20 + 25 + 30 + 30 = 105%
amp melee bonus: 30%
gear melee bonus: 12%
martial artist: 75%
rage melee bonus: 80%
power damage bonus: 50% (amp IV) + 30% (TA) = 80%

hammer HM damage:
675 * (1 + 1.05 + 0.3 + 0.12 + 0.75 + 0.8) * 1.5 = 4,070.25

e. hammer damage (vs health after hammer HM removes barriers):
250 * (1 + 0.8) * 1.5 = 675

4070.25 - 3075 = 995.25
1687.5 - 995.25 = 692.25 (health left)
692.25 - 675 = 17.25 //Gold phantom is left with 17.25 health.

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biotic hammer + 3-hit combo on gold scion (16875 armour)

first 2 hits:
360 * (1 + 1.05 + 0.3 + 0.12 + 0.75 + 0.8) * 1.5 = 2,170.8

last hit of 3-hit combo (enchanted): 
720 * (1 + 1.05 + 0.3 + 0.12 + 0.75 + 0.8) * 1.5 = 4,341.6

b. hammer damage:
750 * 1.5 * 1.75 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.8) * 1.5 = 6,792.1875

Total damage:
2,170.8 * 2 + 4,341.6 + 6,792.1875 = 15,475.3875

16875 - 15,475.3875 =1,399.6125 //gold scion left with 1,399.6125 (popping the sac will kill it from here)

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extra notes:
Biotic/Electrical hammer damage applies after melee damage.
Tech combo works for TB/FE and CEs.
Tech combo does not work for CEs on secondary targets.
Electrical hammer debuff cannot stack with SF debuff until SF's CE is detonated.
Enchant damage multipliers do not apply to normal melee.
Melee damage on secondary targets do not receive omniblade mod bonus.
(Hammer) power damage on secondary targets still receive omniblade mod bonus.
When priming with fire/chill effect of electrical hammer, its level (for combo calculation) is the hammer's level.
When detonating with the hammers, it uses the hammers' levels (like all powers) for calculation.
The "biotic explosion" occuring at the end of a biotic hammer smash is not an actual BE.

Tech combo only works when electrical hammer is used to detonate.

Fire hammer does not prime fire explosions on shields (and probably barriers/not tested).

Fire hammer's DoT also benefits from melee weapon mods.

--------------------------------------------------

TA melee bonus (40%) vs power bonus (30%)

Melee bonus: Better vs mooks
Power bonus: Better vs bosses

power
+590.625 on b.hammer vs armour
+393.75 on e.hammer vs shields/barriers

melee
+576 on 3 hit combo
+270 on hammer HM

vs health
3 hit combo: 360 + 360 + 720 = 1,440 (+576)
hammer HM: 675 (+270)
e. hammer: 250 (+75)
b. hammer: 750 (+225)

vs shields/barrier
3 hit combo: 360 + 360 + 720 = 1,440 (+576)
hammer HM: 675 (+270)
e. hammer: 250 * 3 * 1.75 = 1,312.5 (+393.75)
b. hammer: 750 (+225)

vs armour
3 hit combo: 360 + 360 + 720 = 1,440 (+576)
hammer HM: 675 (+270)
e. hammer: 250 (+75)
b. hammer: 750 * 1.5 * 1.75 = 1,968.75 (+590.625)

--------------------------------------------------

Test data (warning: it's extreme and there's no TL;DR)

Modifié par corlist, 13 avril 2014 - 02:09 .

[Deerber]

 Yay! Corlist's back! Welcome! 

And thanks for this!

[Tybo]

So, the enchant damage does come after the melee damage. Explains why Electrical Hammer feels so underwhelming. Guess it's really only good for bosses.

[Betterknown]

corlist wrote...



Test data (warning: it's extreme and there's no TL;DR)

Extreme indeed, props to you @_@

[Deerber]

tyhw wrote...

So, the enchant damage does come after the melee damage. Explains why Electrical Hammer feels so underwhelming. Guess it's really only good for bosses.

Uhm... Could you elaborate on that please? :happy:

[BjornDaDwarf]

So based on the very end of that document, the 75 percent bonus from MA is working then. There was a thread earlier speculating that the hammer may not be activating it, that it was still linked to the old Backhand HM and not the hammer.

[Atrix2011]

Deerber wrote...

tyhw wrote...

So, the enchant damage does come after the melee damage. Explains why Electrical Hammer feels so underwhelming. Guess it's really only good for bosses.

Uhm... Could you elaborate on that please? :happy:

Typically you want to use an electric power to strip the shields then blast 'em with something else when the shield is down. Electric hammer would suit this purpose perfectly if it applied the electric power first (and stripped the shields thanks to its high shield damage multiplier) then had the hammer strike finish them off.

The way it is now, the hammer damage comes first and takes their shields away but the shield gate stops the excess damage then the electric damage is applied which doesn't do bonus against health and almost always results in a still-alive enemy in front of you
.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Deerber wrote...

tyhw wrote...

So, the enchant damage does come after the melee damage. Explains why Electrical Hammer feels so underwhelming. Guess it's really only good for bosses.

Uhm... Could you elaborate on that please? :happy:

The Electric Hammer is built to take down shields/barriers.  By going off after the fact, the regular melee damage is stripping away those defenses, and the electric power damage is hitting health/armor, for which Biotic Hammer would be much, much better.  EH's bonus against defenses will ONLY come into play against shielded/barriered bosses.

The EH should power damage should go off before melee damage in order to make the best use of it.

'd.  Though as far as I know, shieldgate never affects melee attacks at all, so that part of the above response is incorrect.

Modifié par BjornDaDwarf, 28 février 2013 - 08:09 .

[BlackDahlia424]

Could you test something for us please - you don't have to, but I'm curious. Would you get more damage on Biotic Hammer using a shotgun omni-blade or a pistol with melee stunner and power damage mod?

[Deerber]

Ah, got it, thanks guys.

[Deerber]

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

Could you test something for us please - you don't have to, but I'm curious. Would you get more damage on Biotic Hammer using a shotgun omni-blade or a pistol with melee stunner and power damage mod?

That can be done by math, no need to test it. I'm 95% sure, without even making calculations, that you get better results with the omni-blade.

[Learn To Love Yourself]

Corlist, thank you so much

[Tybo]

Atrix2011 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

tyhw wrote...

So, the enchant damage does come after the melee damage. Explains why Electrical Hammer feels so underwhelming. Guess it's really only good for bosses.

Uhm... Could you elaborate on that please? :happy:

Typically you want to use an electric power to strip the shields then blast 'em with something else when the shield is down. Electric hammer would suit this purpose perfectly if it applied the electric power first (and stripped the shields thanks to its high shield damage multiplier) then had the hammer strike finish them off.

The way it is now, the hammer damage comes first and takes their shields away but the shield gate stops the excess damage then the electric damage is applied which doesn't do bonus against health and almost always results in a still-alive enemy in front of you
.

Almost right.  Only guns are affected by shield gate.  The main point is that, unless hitting shields/barriers, electrical hammer does 1/3 of the damage that biotic hammer does.  The fact that the melee mod only affects the primary target makes this even worse.  

Therefore, only against bosses with enough shields to withstand the initial melee, or where the debuff/techburst will matter, is electrical hammer worth using.

Deerber wrote...

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

Could you test something for us please - you don't have to, but I'm curious. Would you get more damage on Biotic Hammer using a shotgun omni-blade or a pistol with melee stunner and power damage mod?

That can be done by math, no need to test it. I'm 95% 100% sure, without even making calculations, that you get better results with the omni-blade.

Fixed it for you:wizard:

50% multiplicative, applied to both parts, is obviously better than 25% multiplicative to both parts and 30% additive to 1 part.

Modifié par tyhw, 28 février 2013 - 08:19 .

[BlackDahlia424]

Deerber wrote...

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

Could
you test something for us please - you don't have to, but I'm curious.
Would you get more damage on Biotic Hammer using a shotgun omni-blade or
a pistol with melee stunner and power damage mod?

That
can be done by math, no need to test it. I'm 95% sure, without even
making calculations, that you get better results with the omni-blade.

I didn't see that he posted the base melee damage here, which is why I didn't know how to begin the calculations. Also, I don't spec into melee damage on evo 6 of fitness, which would hurt the multiplicative damage of the melee mods a lot. Plus, I don't know if rage bonuses are additive or multiplicative (probably additive?) and whether the evo 5 Martial artist is additive or multiplicative.

All in all, there's too many unknowns for me to correctly calculate damage output.

[Tybo]

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

Could
you test something for us please - you don't have to, but I'm curious.
Would you get more damage on Biotic Hammer using a shotgun omni-blade or
a pistol with melee stunner and power damage mod?

That
can be done by math, no need to test it. I'm 95% sure, without even
making calculations, that you get better results with the omni-blade.

I didn't see that he posted the base melee damage here, which is why I didn't know how to begin the calculations. Also, I don't spec into melee damage on evo 6 of fitness, which would hurt the multiplicative damage of the melee mods a lot. Plus, I don't know if rage bonuses are additive or multiplicative (probably additive?) and whether the evo 5 Martial artist is additive or multiplicative.

All in all, there's too many unknowns for me to correctly calculate damage output.

Multiplicative bonuses: TC specific types of weapon damage boosts, collector/geth weapon damage boosts, Cranial trauma system, Marksman headshots, melee weapon attachments, and any power evolution that says +x% to a type of protection, any damage taken increase.

Additive bonuses: Everything else

That's not perfectly accurate.  Not all of these multiply each other...TC and geth add together, marksman and CTS add together, damage taken adds to the headshot multiplier...but just remembering what is additive and what is multiplicative will get you close.

Modifié par tyhw, 28 février 2013 - 08:27 .

[FlashAK]

Thanks, corlist! Great work as usual.

Would you recommend power damage or melee damage in TA? Also, I took the force evolution in 6a for biotic hammer. Is it even worth using over the 2 charges? It seems to have saved me from a few sync kills when I was using the 3 hit combo...

[Tybo]

FlashAK wrote...

Thanks, corlist! Great work as usual.

Would you recommend power damage or melee damage in TA? Also, I took the force evolution in 6a for biotic hammer. Is it even worth using over the 2 charges? It seems to have saved me from a few sync kills when I was using the 3 hit combo...

Doesn't make a huge difference (TA).  But I'd recommend power damage.  You lose 50 damage against health/shields.  But you gain 62.5 vs barriers and as much as 315.625 against armor (taking the increased armor damage evolution).

As for the force...I like the 2 charges a lot, it lets me use biotic hammer every time.  I also don't think the force does anything for the 3 hit combo, as the first two are melees.  Any humanoid enemy should pretty much die in one shot anyway.  But its your call.

[Silent Indignation]

I haven't played this guy because I was waiting for more forum input on builds. What is max damage spec and equip / gear?

What I'm taking away from this thread so far is that I should spec out of tech hammer.

If you prime with elemental ammo does the biotic hammer set up appropriate explosion? Does it do more than tech hammer with explosion evolution bonus?

Thanks for any input!

[Learn To Love Yourself]

tyhw wrote...

FlashAK wrote...

Thanks, corlist! Great work as usual.

Would you recommend power damage or melee damage in TA? Also, I took the force evolution in 6a for biotic hammer. Is it even worth using over the 2 charges? It seems to have saved me from a few sync kills when I was using the 3 hit combo...

Doesn't make a huge difference (TA).  But I'd recommend power damage.  You lose 50 damage against health/shields.  But you gain 62.5 vs barriers and as much as 315.625 against armor (taking the increased armor damage evolution).

As for the force...I like the 2 charges a lot, it lets me use biotic hammer every time.  I also don't think the force does anything for the 3 hit combo, as the first two are melees.  Any humanoid enemy should pretty much die in one shot anyway.  But its your call.

And thank you, too, tyhw

[BlackDahlia424]

Ok, sorry to ask so many questions, I have a question about the Talon's Omni-bow as it sort of relates to the Krolord. Do AP arrows benefit more from a shotgun omni-blade or pistol with melee stunner and power mod?

In this case, it seems the Talon has lower actual melee damage (lower base I'd imagine plus no rage bonuses to really stack up the multiplicative bonuses from omni-blade).

[mrcanada]

Atrix2011 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

tyhw wrote...

So, the enchant damage does come after the melee damage. Explains why Electrical Hammer feels so underwhelming. Guess it's really only good for bosses.

Uhm... Could you elaborate on that please? :happy:

Typically you want to use an electric power to strip the shields then blast 'em with something else when the shield is down. Electric hammer would suit this purpose perfectly if it applied the electric power first (and stripped the shields thanks to its high shield damage multiplier) then had the hammer strike finish them off.

The way it is now, the hammer damage comes first and takes their shields away but the shield gate stops the excess damage then the electric damage is applied which doesn't do bonus against health and almost always results in a still-alive enemy in front of you
.

Just like I thought and why EH is underwhelming.

[FlashAK]

tyhw wrote...

FlashAK wrote...

Thanks, corlist! Great work as usual.

Would you recommend power damage or melee damage in TA? Also, I took the force evolution in 6a for biotic hammer. Is it even worth using over the 2 charges? It seems to have saved me from a few sync kills when I was using the 3 hit combo...

Doesn't make a huge difference (TA).  But I'd recommend power damage.  You lose 50 damage against health/shields.  But you gain 62.5 vs barriers and as much as 315.625 against armor (taking the increased armor damage evolution).

As for the force...I like the 2 charges a lot, it lets me use biotic hammer every time.  I also don't think the force does anything for the 3 hit combo, as the first two are melees.  Any humanoid enemy should pretty much die in one shot anyway.  But its your call.

Thanks, tyhw. I'll respec for power damage.

As for the force, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about:

I've done the 3 hit combo on an Atlas and he melees me on the second hit, which effectively "primes" him for a sync kill AFAIK. As I'm winding up the final charged hammer hit, the Atlas goes for a grab but the 3rd hit connects and I get dropped. Something weird happens with the animations during this, but I know the Atlas was going for the grab based on the camera motion, Atlas animation and the Warlord being slightly elevated. My thinking is that the force from the 3rd hit staggers him enough that he drops me.

[Tybo]

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

Ok, sorry to ask so many questions, I have a question about the Talon's Omni-bow as it sort of relates to the Krolord. Do AP arrows benefit more from a shotgun omni-blade or pistol with melee stunner and power mod?

In this case, it seems the Talon has lower actual melee damage (lower base I'd imagine plus no rage bonuses to really stack up the multiplicative bonuses from omni-blade).

Omni-blade affects the AP arrows as well.  You gain 1.5*(1+bonuses(can get 50% in the power, 37.5 in the passive,50% from a power amp).  If you use the pistol, you'd get 1.25*(1+bonuses+.3).  The higher multiplier is always better.  For the pistol with 2 amps to be better, you'd need less than 25% total bonuses to power damage (including damage upgrades in the tree).  And that's only for the arrow portion.  For the melee portion, which accounts for around half the damage, the shotgun mod is 20% stronger.

Here's some calculations I did in another thread:

tyhw said...
 For reference, each bolt does 100 damage.  With rank 6 in AP Arrows, you can fire 5 bolts.  You can get a 150% modifier from your passive, plus 30% from a strength enhancer.  With a shotgun omniblade 5, you can do 420 damage per bolt, for  2100 damage.  On top of this, the AP Arrows will do damage.  A max damage spec gets 87.5% power damage, plus 50% from a Power Amp.  With a shotgun omniblade 5, this will do 356.25 damage per arrow, for 1781.25 damage.  

This works out to 3881.2 damage, enough to one shot centurions and marauders.  It will also get dragoons.

I do find the lock-on a bit troublesome, and cain mines are definitely better, but they aren't bad.

Modifié par tyhw, 28 février 2013 - 09:04 .

[Silent Indignation]

Bump for fast forums

[Eckswhyzed]

I couldn't find this in the test data, but are the combos set up by rank 5 of tech hammer counted as level 1 primers? Also, I assume that detonating with either enchant uses the rank of the respective tech/biotic hammer?

Just wondering if I should drop points from EH into the passive.