438 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Wookie]

Landon7001 wrote...

{face palm}.....birdsalsa, ever heard of the retake mass effect and hold the line movements among others....retake alone got 90,000 plus signatures, you hear about the red, blue and green cupcackes sent to BW offices, or all the thousands of dollars raised?.....there are various movements worldwide, nothing like this has ever happened before....THATS how bad the ending was ; )

QFT

There are not a lot of game developers, who have ever gotten that type of reaction from their gaming communities, in response to a game.

[Jassu1979]

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

There will come a day when you realize that "dark and edgy" does not automatically equal "deep and profound".
I agree that there are stories out there like the ones you desribe here, but...

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story...

No. Just no. I agree that there are some instances of sublime writing to be found in the trilogy. including the third installment (Mordin's death while singing Gilbert and Sullivan was one of the most touching moments ever), but the ending? Nope, sorry, it's just as silly and shoddily written as a lackluster rainbows and unicorns ending - only at the other end of the emotional spectrum.

As for the rest: yeah, it's among the best stories ever written for a game, and the idea of having even your smaller choices matter in the long run was just brilliant. Too bad they had to abandon that approach ten minutes before the end, giving each and every player mostly the same red/green/blue that did not derive from anything the character had done previously.
Instead of finishing Shepard's story, they turned her into a mere accessory to the Catalyst's story.

[The Night Mammoth]

Oh Seival, you've talked about Synthesis enough by now that you should know Mass Effect is basically a happiness generator.

Seriously, if anyone wants a unicorns and rainbows ending, there it is.

[Landon7001]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Landon7001 wrote...

BirdsallSa, so why dont you adress the facts that i just threw at you in two previous posts then? Because, you sir, stink of troll

I assume you're talking about the retake movement post? Thought you were kidding about that. Jessica Merizan said people were not upset about the ending, they just wanted more expansion on what happens in the world and with the characters they know and love. They were given that in the Extended Cut which was a free dlc. Does anyone ever thank Bioware for the months of time and effort from everyone on the team? They were working round the clock on that project, putting their hearts and souls into it. We got at least 10 slides per playthrough at no extra charge, and they weren't sloppily done either they were high quality and some of the best work in the series. So don't come at me talking about facts when you clearly had yours wrong. What people wanted was closure and they got it, now a majority is completely satisfied.

Closure was only part of it and I will admitt the EC did help immensely. As did the other dlcs like Leviathan, thought really shouldnt they have been in the original game, all of it? But what of all the sloppy plot holes like how your crew were running at the beam then later appeared alive back on the normany? They had to actually go back through an dcreate a whole scene b/c the writer apparently did think of that...

You seem to believe everything Merizan says. These are the same people who repeatedly lied about a multitude of things regarding me 3. From 16 diff. endings to no multiplayer neccessary to citadel leak fake. 

I dont see whats funny about the retake movement and thousands of fans organizing an uprecedented movement agianst an unprecedentedly bad game ending which was also made all the worse after being explicitly lied about {no a,b,c ending mike gamble?}. Its proof of both the love for the series and the depth of the anger over the ending.

Something went wrong somewhere, this company used to be pure magic, me 2 was the best game of all time. Maybe it is EA, the game was definately rushed....from plot holes to face importation an dgraphic problems thats all too evident. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Han Shot First wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Perhaps Bioware should have had the dark, heartwrenching endings in the second act and have the third act end in a more heroic fashion?

Han Shot First wrote...
A better way to have executed a good bittersweet ending IMO, would have been to have another Suicide Mission in the end game, except this time the Suicide Mission would be aptly named. All the surviving ME2 squadmates would join for the final push, and in even in a 'perfect' run you'd end up losing some of these squadmates, Anderson, and potentially Shepard as well. Their losses would provide the 'bitter,' but their sacrifice would help in saving galactic civilization from the Reapers. The 'sweet' would be a victory that saved that game universe we've all come to know and love. Some squadmates might die, but galactic civilization would live on.

To continue from this part, even if you get the ending where Shepard and their LI can finally live happily ever after. You could still put a focus on the (potential) damage the war had to Shepard's psyche such as PTSD. And how it affected Shepard on the long term. 

Just throwing an idea out.

That is a good idea as well.

Actually that is pretty much how the Return of the King movie ended. The great victory is won, but as Frodo says "some wounds never heal." While he was in part talking about the physical wound from having been stabbed by a Nazgul, he was also talking about psychological wounds.

Funny, that was the movie I was thinking of when writing my post.

But yeah, having such a focus would still give the ending that bitter element that is necessary. That even in victory our heroes are still hurt so to speak.

[SpamBot2000]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Now I don't mean to brag but I know some amazing authors, ranging from private notes to high profile stories on the top ten list. When we got together for lunch the other day, everyone was in agreement that Mass Effect 3 was the best video game ending in the modern era and perhaps of all time. I think that settles it.

Hah, a classic! Good job, Bradley.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 01 mars 2013 - 06:20 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Landon I agree w/ the majority of your post but ME2 was also with EA as publisher.

For my part... and ad nauseum

OP's general premise is correct; but this wasn't one of those examples.

There was a fair amount of bittersweet.....I mean did anyone think Mordin or Legion arc were anything other than that?

...ah well i'll stop here before I tangent.

[Mcfly616]

crimzontearz wrote...


go back under the bridge Seival

maybe you should.


You may not like Seival. But he's got a point here.

[wright1978]

Indy_S wrote...

OP, I immensely disagree with your hypothesis that people dislike the ending because it is sad. I propose that people dislike it because it is really bad, incongruous with what came before it and reliant on what appears to be gibberish.

QFT

[Uncle Jo]

Han Shot First wrote...

That is a good idea as well.

Actually that is pretty much how the Return of the King movie ended. The great victory is won, but as Frodo says "some wounds never heal." While he was in part talking about the physical wound from having been stabbed by a Nazgul, he was also talking about psychological wounds.

I can only agree with this. LOTR is the first reference which comes to me when I think of Mass Effect trilogy.

IMO the main differences that made LOTR succeeded where ME utterly failed are:

- The three parts are firmly and coherently tied with another.
- The Ring wasn't found in the last movie. His power as well as the consequences of its destruction/preservation were also well known from the very beginning.
- The main villain, which was introduced in the first movie, wasn't suddenly changed in the eleventh hour.
- Tolkien didn't come up with a sudden and twisted *sspull about the bad guys motivation.
- Tolkien didn't force his hero to make a compromise with Sauron. He did better, the hero constantly struggled with the growing power of the Ring and failed in the last moment. If not for Golum, the battle for the middle-earth would've been lost.
- Tolkien didn' kill his hero for the sake of the drama/bittersweet-ending. He did better, unhealable wounds made Frodo lost for the world he saved. And with the Elves and Gandalf gone for ever, so was the magic. Time has come for a new era.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 01 mars 2013 - 06:55 .

[Landon7001]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Landon I agree w/ the majority of your post but ME2 was also with EA as publisher.

For my part... and ad nauseum

OP's general premise is correct; but this wasn't one of those examples.

There was a fair amount of bittersweet.....I mean did anyone think Mordin or Legion arc were anything other than that?

...ah well i'll stop here before I tangent.

its been said that me 2 was already well into production before ea came into the picture

[3DandBeyond]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Now I don't mean to brag but I know some amazing authors, ranging from private notes to high profile stories on the top ten list. When we got together for lunch the other day, everyone was in agreement that Mass Effect 3 was the best video game ending in the modern era and perhaps of all time. I think that settles it.

Interesting, but perhaps more to the point might be if so exactly what did those authors have to drink before the discussion?

I've included a link to a thread that you might find interesting, one you were the author of.
http://social.biowar...ndex/15741240/4

As for what SF writers think or what any author may think, the proof is in not what they may have said to anyone, but what they have put in writing about it.  On this forum there have been links to what authors, including one for Star Trek:TNG had to say about this and they did not even like ME3's endings.

[TheRealJayDee]

Another story that imo had a lot of similarities to Mass Effect (until the end) was the anime series Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. It was truly epic, and it had an ending that was the right amount of bittersweet. I really wished the ME trilogy could have had an ending as emotionally satisfying...

[3DandBeyond]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

There will come a day when you realize that "dark and edgy" does not automatically equal "deep and profound".
I agree that there are stories out there like the ones you desribe here, but...

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story...

No. Just no. I agree that there are some instances of sublime writing to be found in the trilogy. including the third installment (Mordin's death while singing Gilbert and Sullivan was one of the most touching moments ever), but the ending? Nope, sorry, it's just as silly and shoddily written as a lackluster rainbows and unicorns ending - only at the other end of the emotional spectrum.

As for the rest: yeah, it's among the best stories ever written for a game, and the idea of having even your smaller choices matter in the long run was just brilliant. Too bad they had to abandon that approach ten minutes before the end, giving each and every player mostly the same red/green/blue that did not derive from anything the character had done previously.
Instead of finishing Shepard's story, they turned her into a mere accessory to the Catalyst's story.

This.  The story goes from being about what Shepard has wanted and needed to do and how s/he basically forced the galaxy to see what had to be done, to being about what the kid wants to be done-and that's based upon what Leviathan needed to have done.  In the end, Shepard is fulfilling their wants and needs and not the galaxy's at this time, in this cycle.

[tevix]

@3Dandbeyond

Wait, a TNG writer didn't like ME3's ending? That actually has more implication than face value IMO..

TNG's last episode was pretty much devoid of any action. It was all dialogue, psychology, mental play and speculation. Lots of philosiphy while dealing with essentially another Deus Ex Machina style character.

I thought that ending was actually pretty good. For them to evaluate an ending that strives to follow a similar path and say they failed is...not good.

[Landon7001]

please don't compare Q with the starchild....

[Apocaleepse360]

Choice based games, in my opinion, should be capable of including every outcome. Whether that is good, bittersweet, or downright miserable. Older games were perfectly capable of doing this and even better, could still produce sequels without leaving a lot of issues wide open for tons of speculation. It's their story. I should not have to rely on headcanon to deal with the huge amount of issues when BioWare are the ones who should be dealing with them.

Bittersweet endings are only good if they are done well. As bad as things may be for the characters in that ending, their endings still need to be climatic. BioWare's ending to Mass Effect 3 was not climatic.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 01 mars 2013 - 07:16 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Landon7001 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Landon I agree w/ the majority of your post but ME2 was also with EA as publisher.

For my part... and ad nauseum

OP's general premise is correct; but this wasn't one of those examples.

There was a fair amount of bittersweet.....I mean did anyone think Mordin or Legion arc were anything other than that?

...ah well i'll stop here before I tangent.

its been said that me 2 was already well into production before ea came into the picture

That's not entirely true, but probably the basics were more or less fleshed out. It's also been stated that without EA's resources ME2 wouldn't have been as polished etc.

[tevix]

@Landon7001

I'm sorry, Q >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (insert inifinity symbol) than the starchild. I'm just trying to draw a parallel between two "magical" entities that show up to solve a problem we can't. I'm trying to show how there's two similar base ways of handling the ending vs. how it was actually executed.

[3DandBeyond]

tevix wrote...

@3Dandbeyond

Wait, a TNG writer didn't like ME3's ending? That actually has more implication than face value IMO..

TNG's last episode was pretty much devoid of any action. It was all dialogue, psychology, mental play and speculation. Lots of philosiphy while dealing with essentially another Deus Ex Machina style character.

I thought that ending was actually pretty good. For them to evaluate an ending that strives to follow a similar path and say they failed is...not good.

I don't wish to get into a debate here about the quality of Star Trek: TNG (not what you are doing, I know).  My point here is that people that are legitimate authors (a writer who is actually paid for their work), have not loved the thing.  The author in question wrote "The Measure of a Man" about the debate over whether Data was a person and could refuse to be taken in to be studied by a scientist.  I'm not comparing ME and Star Trek, but what I am saying is this author (of books as well as screenplays) didn't like it and was incensed about it.  Other authors also weighed in and their long commenataries were in a blog about SF authors' thoughts on the endings.

This type of ending has been done (take Babylon 5, for instance) and done well.  But if you're going to make an ending like ME3's, you need to make it work within the story you have already created. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Ugh! this thread is bad, and I feel bad for taking part in that.

Troll was obvious but I got drawn in anyway.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 01 mars 2013 - 07:19 .

[3DandBeyond]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Choice based games, in my opinion, should be capable of including every outcome. Whether that is good, bittersweet, or downright miserable. Older games were perfectly capable of doing this and even better, could still produce sequels without leaving current matters wide open and leaving it to the fans to speculate.

Bittersweet endings are only good if they are done well. As bad as things may be for the characters in that ending, their endings still need to be climatic. BioWare's ending to Mass Effect 3 was not climatic.

Agreed.  BW succeeded in creating the demented, "we give up do what you want" version in 3 flavors with a dash of "hell no, we won't do what you want-oops, we're dead" for some spice.  It would have been nice to have real versions of what you stated here-good (happier, we won because we tried really hard), bittersweet, and total annihilation or reaperization.

[Cloaking_Thane]

3DandBeyond wrote...

tevix wrote...

@3Dandbeyond

Wait, a TNG writer didn't like ME3's ending? That actually has more implication than face value IMO..

TNG's last episode was pretty much devoid of any action. It was all dialogue, psychology, mental play and speculation. Lots of philosiphy while dealing with essentially another Deus Ex Machina style character.

I thought that ending was actually pretty good. For them to evaluate an ending that strives to follow a similar path and say they failed is...not good.

I don't wish to get into a debate here about the quality of Star Trek: TNG (not what you are doing, I know).  My point here is that people that are legitimate authors (a writer who is actually paid for their work), have not loved the thing.  The author in question wrote "The Measure of a Man" about the debate over whether Data was a person and could refuse to be taken in to be studied by a scientist.  I'm not comparing ME and Star Trek, but what I am saying is this author (of books as well as screenplays) didn't like it and was incensed about it.  Other authors also weighed in and their long commenataries were in a blog about SF authors' thoughts on the endings.

This type of ending has been done (take Babylon 5, for instance) and done well.  But if you're going to make an ending like ME3's, you need to make it work within the story you have already created. 

Could you link to the blog?

[Mastone]

OP what pills have you been taking...because I want them too.
I was hoping for a band of brothers type of story not that of Breaking dawn meets Harry Potter and Casper the friendly ghost.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

3DandBeyond wrote...

tevix wrote...

@3Dandbeyond

Wait, a TNG writer didn't like ME3's ending? That actually has more implication than face value IMO..

TNG's last episode was pretty much devoid of any action. It was all dialogue, psychology, mental play and speculation. Lots of philosiphy while dealing with essentially another Deus Ex Machina style character.

I thought that ending was actually pretty good. For them to evaluate an ending that strives to follow a similar path and say they failed is...not good.

I don't wish to get into a debate here about the quality of Star Trek: TNG (not what you are doing, I know).  My point here is that people that are legitimate authors (a writer who is actually paid for their work), have not loved the thing.  The author in question wrote "The Measure of a Man" about the debate over whether Data was a person and could refuse to be taken in to be studied by a scientist.  I'm not comparing ME and Star Trek, but what I am saying is this author (of books as well as screenplays) didn't like it and was incensed about it.  Other authors also weighed in and their long commenataries were in a blog about SF authors' thoughts on the endings.

This type of ending has been done (take Babylon 5, for instance) and done well.  But if you're going to make an ending like ME3's, you need to make it work within the story you have already created. 

It also helps to lay the ground work for an ending like that, before hand.


Last post, I'm not posting in this troll thread anymore.