438 réponses à ce sujet

[F4H bandicoot]

BirdsallSa wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I strongly disagree. Of course I don't want to put words into Bioware's moths, but I am sure if you asked them if they wanted to deliver a massage, test your morality or something like that with Mass Effect, you would get a clear "No."

Feel free to correct me if you are from Bioware or know of any Interviews that say otherwise.

I can confirm that it was without a doubt Bioware's mission to make the player really consider consequences when making a decision. Seeing those consequences play out and knowing that you impacted the universe on a galactic scale is what makes Mass Effect 3 the adventure of an era.

25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsbgiiYKBi1r30yjlo1_500.gif
How strange

Modifié par F4H bandicoot, 28 février 2013 - 09:06 .

[SyK18]

 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story... To think about important things, and make your own conclusions. To test you own morality in the crucible of dire and inevitable events. To learn a lesson and find comfort in important things you understood.

To like such story is to accept and understand its main idea. You don't have to be happy after reading. But you will certainly become a little wiser.



Once again, I want to say thanks to BioWare, and especially the writers. I hope you will keep creating stories like Mass Effect Trilogy in the future no matter what some disappointed people say. The Trilogy was golden. The Ending was brilliant. You will be remembered as one of the best sci-fi storytellers.

I don't see how bad writing can make anyone wiser.

[Trikormadenadon]

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story... To think about important things, and make your own conclusions. To test you own morality in the crucible of dire and inevitable events. To learn a lesson and find comfort in important things you understood.

To like such story is to accept and understand its main idea. You don't have to be happy after reading. But you will certainly become a little wiser.



Once again, I want to say thanks to BioWare, and especially the writers. I hope you will keep creating stories like Mass Effect Trilogy in the future no matter what some disappointed people say. The Trilogy was golden. The Ending was brilliant. You will be remembered as one of the best sci-fi storytellers.

Yeah, but the problem is myself and most of the people I know play video games to ESCAPE reality. So to have reality shoved in my face during my game really pisses me off. I don't want to be taught a lesson, I want to enjoy my game. Regardless of whether or not the writers were trying to convey a message or lesson to me with their ending is pointless to me if I did not enjoy the ending. The message is lost in the despair it provokes.

[Hexley UK]

If you learned anything it's how not to write an ending.

[BirdsallSa]

Seival wrote...

BirdsallSa wrote...

Team BirdsallSa endorses this thread. Seival, I was wondering if you might be interested in a collaborative Full Review of Mass Effect 3 which includes all dlcs. I would invite you to join me on my Citadel review, though I promised this a while back as a solo project and everyone on the bsn is looking forward to it as such.

To make detailed positive review about the entire Trilogy is very good idea. The task is very time-consuming though. I will help, if I will have time for this.

Great to hear it. I plan on contacting some of the other posters on this forum who are considered authorities on the game for the project. I'd also appreciate it if you could make it to the grand opening of my Review late tuesday night, it wouldn't be the same without you there.

[Argolas]

I actually did learn something about storytelling from the ending of ME3 in comparison to other endings, or at least about my opinion on storytelling, namely when I am willing to accept the protagonist's death and when I'm not. But I didn't learn anything about the real world from the series and I don't think anyone should try to.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

I would be really interested in hearing what "vital lessons" people have learned from this pathetic attempt at philosophical musing. See, you - and several other people, I may add - throw around terms like "instructive" and "deep" a lot, but never really elaborate on how or what it has taught you specifically.

What can you possible take from the endings? That dictatorship is fine as long as your really, really sure you'd be great at the job? Does it justify some pre-existent feeling of racial hate with it's wonderful message of difference leading to conflict? Really, tell me what earth-shattering secrets has superMAC revealed to you through his incredible rhetoric, what conclusion have you come to?

Furthermore, and I find this incredibly aggravating, can we please stop with the idiotic generalization that people dislike the endings because they aren't happy? Are you really incapable of understanding that there may be several other, equally valid reasons? Must you lower yourself to these pathetic strawmen?

[adayaday]

ME is game with a story not cautionary tale.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story... To think about important things, and make your own conclusions. To test you own morality in the crucible of dire and inevitable events. To learn a lesson and find comfort in important things you understood.

To like such story is to accept and understand its main idea. You don't have to be happy after reading. But you will certainly become a little wiser.



Once again, I want to say thanks to BioWare, and especially the writers. I hope you will keep creating stories like Mass Effect Trilogy in the future no matter what some disappointed people say. The Trilogy was golden. The Ending was brilliant. You will be remembered as one of the best sci-fi storytellers.

The bolded parts make me laugh, the underlined one makes me concerned.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I learnt, not to preorder or buy games on day of release, to be patient and wait for fan reviews, especially when it concerns a Bioware game.

[Han Shot First]

I do agree with the OP in that a happy ending is not a necessity for good storytelling, and that a bittersweet tone was the right tone for Bioware to aim for.

Where we differ is that I don't think there was anything deep or throught provoking about the endinsg to Mass Effect 3, and that I don't think Bioware succeeded in writing a good bittersweet end to the trilogy. The original endings were a case of a good idea and bad execution.

Where I think Bioware failed in trying to write a decent bittersweet ending to the trilogy, is in making the Mass Effect universe itself a casualty. In the original endings galactic civilization collapses and the Mass Effect universe as we knew it was gone. Players had just spent an entire game rallying all the various factions to set aside differences and unite, only to have that galactic unity destroyed for millenia in the original endings. This was retconned with the High EMS versions of the EC of course, but a galactic dark age does seem to be what Bioware was initially aiming for

Most players are willing to accept some loss I think, but what they quite obviously weren't willing to accept is the universe they had come to know and love over the last five years and three games, be completely demolished with the stroke of a writer's pen.

A better way to have executed a good bittersweet ending IMO, would have been to have another Suicide Mission in the end game, except this time the Suicide Mission would be aptly named. All the surviving ME2 squadmates would join for the final push, and in even in a 'perfect' run you'd end up losing some of these squadmates, Anderson, and potentially Shepard as well. Their losses would provide the 'bitter,' but their sacrifice would help in saving galactic civilization from the Reapers. The 'sweet' would be a victory that saved that game universe we've all come to know and love. Some squadmates might die, but galactic civilization would live on.

[Kaidan Fan]

Han Shot First wrote...

I do agree with the OP in that a happy ending is not a necessity for good storytelling, and that a bittersweet tone was the right tone for Bioware to aim for.

Where we differ is that I don't think there was anything deep or throught provoking about the endinsg to Mass Effect 3, and that I don't think Bioware succeeded in writing a good bittersweet end to the trilogy. The original endings were a case of a good idea and bad execution.

Where I think Bioware failed in trying to write a decent bittersweet ending to the trilogy, is in making the Mass Effect universe itself a casualty. In the original endings galactic civilization collapses and the Mass Effect universe as we knew it was gone. Players had just spent an entire game rallying all the various factions to set aside differences and unite, only to have that galactic unity destroyed for millenia in the original endings. This was retconned with the High EMS versions of the EC of course, but a galactic dark age does seem to be what Bioware was initially aiming for

Most players are willing to accept some loss I think, but what they quite obviously weren't willing to accept is the universe they had come to know and love over the last five years and three games, be completely demolished with the stroke of a writer's pen.

A better way to have executed a good bittersweet ending IMO, would have been to have another Suicide Mission in the end game, except this time the Suicide Mission would be aptly named. All the surviving ME2 squadmates would join for the final push, and in even in a 'perfect' run you'd end up losing some of these squadmates, Anderson, and potentially Shepard as well. Their losses would provide the 'bitter,' but their sacrifice would help in saving galactic civilization from the Reapers. The 'sweet' would be a victory that saved that game universe we've all come to know and love. Some squadmates might die, but galactic civilization would live on.

Even though I've come to grips with the ending,  I wish that your version could have been an option.

OT:  I know that you push hard for everyone to accept your ending must be sad to learn anything crap, but I'm not buying, nor will I ever.  I have no problem with there being the sad endings and as I said above I've come to terms with it by now.  I think most people only expected there would be different versions of the endings with different outcomes.  A so called "happy" ending, a "bittersweet" ending and a "grim-dark" ending.  If you don't agree with that, that's all well and good.  Just agree to disagree. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

I don't know that Mass Effect is meant to teach a "lesson," but I would say that Bioware wants to use it to explore and convey worthwhile themes and ideas beyond just being a fun game series to play (though it is certainly that too).

Before the EC and Leviathan came along, I'd say that the most important theme in ME3 was the possibility and necessity of inter-species cooperation. Obviously this is front and center on Tuchanka and Rannoch, but also consider that you have humans doing their best to fight and defeat a human nationalist organization, an asari councilor handing over her civilization's most controversial secret to a human soldier, a salarian Spectre helping to save the hanar, and perhaps at least the beginnings of a cooling-off between humans and batarians.

With the EC and Leviathan factored in, the theme of overreach and excess in the pursuit of power sits alongside that. The endings themselves, and their compromised nature, are really just an outgrowth of that, showing just how disastrous the Leviathans' mistake has been.

I think the question left hanging is how these two themes interact with each other and specifically whether a united galaxy could and should lead to a more ideal solution. Shepard never quite challenges the Catalyst on this point, and it kind of lurks beneath the surface instead of being addressed and resolved clearly.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Hexley UK wrote...

Nope.

And how does this crap make you wiser?

Explain to me what lessons you learned from this utter tripe.

The ending taught me how not to write an ending. I suppose that's something.

[Dubozz]

MattFini wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

BirdsallSa wrote...

Team BirdsallSa endorses this thread. Seival, I was wondering if you might be interested in a collaborative Full Review of Mass Effect 3 which includes all dlcs. I would invite you to join me on my Citadel review, though I promised this a while back as a solo project and everyone on the bsn is looking forward to it as such.

+6000000000

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Perhaps Bioware should have had the dark, heartwrenching endings in the second act and have the third act end in a more heroic fashion?

Han Shot First wrote...
A better way to have executed a good bittersweet ending IMO, would have been to have another Suicide Mission in the end game, except this time the Suicide Mission would be aptly named. All the surviving ME2 squadmates would join for the final push, and in even in a 'perfect' run you'd end up losing some of these squadmates, Anderson, and potentially Shepard as well. Their losses would provide the 'bitter,' but their sacrifice would help in saving galactic civilization from the Reapers. The 'sweet' would be a victory that saved that game universe we've all come to know and love. Some squadmates might die, but galactic civilization would live on.

To continue from this part, even if you get the ending where Shepard and their LI can finally live happily ever after. You could still put a focus on the (potential) damage the war had to Shepard's psyche such as PTSD. And how it affected Shepard on the long term. 

Just throwing an idea out.

[Konfined]

Well I definitely learned something. Peace can not be achieve through tolerance and understanding. Very reflective of real life indeed. Good catch OP.

And what would this thread be like without the herald of the Harbinger of perfection, the true genetic destiny, Birdsalsa. He is the very model of salvation through ascension.

Modifié par Konfined, 28 février 2013 - 09:55 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

Did Mass Effect teach Bioware anything?

[AlanC9]

Konfined wrote...

Well I definitely learned something. Peace can not be achieve through tolerance and understanding. Very reflective of real life indeed. Good catch OP.
 

I think the intended lesson was more along these lines. (This is a bit academic-sounding, but since it's from a paper by  an Ivy League professor, that's as it should be.)

But what if the world itself, or someone else's actions, could face a previously innocent person with a choice between morally abominable courses of action, and leave him no way to escape with his honor? Our intuitions rebel at the idea, for we feel that the constructibility of such a case must show a contradiction in our moral views. But it is not in itself a contradiction to say that someone can do X or not do X, and that for him to take either course would be wrong. It merely contradicts the supposition that ought implies can—since presumably one ought to refrain from what is wrong, and in such a case it is impossible to do so. Given the limitations on human action, it is naive to suppose that there is a solution to every moral problem with which the world can face us. We have always known that the world is a bad place. It appears that it may be an evil place as well.

It's not so much that either the galaxy or Shepard have bad things happen to them, it's that the ME universe turns out to be just as evil as... well, this one.

[Terravas]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Yeah....I would be lying if I said ME didn't teach me some valuable lessons.

[clarkusdarkus]

Erm no, With the greatest respect we should always feel like we won in a videogame and when we dont we press start to continue, Unfortunately we dont get that option when shepard is lying there...

So the lesson learned is give that option...

[tevix]

You know what, nevermind. I withdraw my support for Seival. He gets beat on constantly anytime his name pops up and he doesn't have the decency to say thanks to people who back him up.

He sure loves to argue with people who disagree with him, though.

[AlanC9]

tevix wrote...

You know what, nevermind. I withdraw my support for Seival. He gets beat on constantly anytime his name pops up and he doesn't have the decency to say thanks to people who back him up.

He sure loves to argue with people who disagree with him, though.

This seems a bit petty.

[BirdsallSa]

tevix wrote...

You know what, nevermind. I withdraw my support for Seival. He gets beat on constantly anytime his name pops up and he doesn't have the decency to say thanks to people who back him up.

He sure loves to argue with people who disagree with him, though.

He says thanks constantly. Maybe he didn't appreciate you backhanding a friend of his... You clearly don't appreciate his goals if you withdraw your support from him just because he doesn't give you a pat on the back and tell you good job.