438 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Alan C9
Maybe you should read one's entire post before responding?

He's quick to argue, slow to thank. Makes it hard to like him.

@BirdsallSa
I'm not getting into it with you because you are unreasonable to discuss with. Even if BW themselves admitted to making a mistake you would contradict them and say "No BW never said that it's perfect."

[BirdsallSa]

tevix wrote...

@Alan C9
Maybe you should read one's entire post before responding?

He's quick to argue, slow to thank. Makes it hard to like him.

@BirdsallSa
I'm not getting into it with you because you are unreasonable to discuss with. Even if BW themselves admitted to making a mistake you would contradict them and say "No BW never said that it's perfect."

I'm perfectly reasonable and I always bring facts to the table. You have no way of knowing what I'd do if Bioware were to ever say they made a mistake, though I find that situation hard to grasp as they surely haven't made any mistakes in the Mass Effect era.

[Steelcan]

I'm not even going to bother with this,

[tevix]

@BirdsallSa

Really? You sure you want to take that stance?

Yesterday we got into it because:
1) You accused me of being an ending hater with no proof (I actually like the ending)
2) You (repeatedly) claimed that CP confirmed that the breath scene was a dying breath. In fact he said it could be interpreted as either. His answer was not definitively for living or dying breath. You repeatedly failed to acknowledge this.
3) You claim Priority: Earth war assets magically show up when turning up the difficulty.
4) You repeatedly claim to have an inside source but won't say who it is. Any BW employee who wanted info revealed would reveal it publically, so hiding them serves no purpose. Thus I doubt this claim.
5) Even among people who agree with you, you tout yourself and your "team" as the only reliable source of information on this forum. I like the ending but am not part of your group, does that mean my posts are meaningless?

[clarkusdarkus]

BirdsallSa wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Alan C9
Maybe you should read one's entire post before responding?

He's quick to argue, slow to thank. Makes it hard to like him.

@BirdsallSa
I'm not getting into it with you because you are unreasonable to discuss with. Even if BW themselves admitted to making a mistake you would contradict them and say "No BW never said that it's perfect."

I'm perfectly reasonable and I always bring facts to the table. You have no way of knowing what I'd do if Bioware were to ever say they made a mistake, though I find that situation hard to grasp as they surely haven't made any mistakes in the Mass Effect era.

Wrong, how did bioware thank there fans originally after completing the trilogy? With an advertisement for dlc.....they then get a backlash regarding that and after the EC they ironically thank the fans.... Bioware had the gall to put that ad they're so to me after the ending which was also a mistake and originally requiring MP for SP, They're vague PR, it would seem they're on a roll of making so called mistakes:bandit:

[jstme]

Thats 100 % true. ME3 type of ending is awesome for Deus Ex. However the main thing is, ME3 type of ending does not work in ME3 trilogy. Its different theme, different spirit of the story.
As an axample:
Take awesome Cats Cradle - not a happiness generating story,mind you - and try to end it with LOTR type of ending. Yuck. Does not fit,does not work. However actual gloomy desperate Cats cradle ending works.
Take equally awesome Lord Of The Rings. Try to stick on it Cats cradle ending. Yuck. Does not fit. Does not work.
Same with sticking Deus Ex on ME. Yuck.

[Mr.House]

I never wanted a happy ending, I wanted an ending that made sense, did not create plotholes, did not drop storylines, throw away characters and introduce a new character in the last TEN MINUTES of the story, throw themes out the window and was satisfying.

Case to the point, my fav ending is PS:T and my preferred ending in DAO was the US ending.

[Ryoten]

Nope, but the best stories are happy endings.

[Mr.House]

Ryoten wrote...

Nope, but the best stories are happy endings.

PS:T is the best story in video game history and there is no "happy ending."

[Bluefuse]

I would have been happier if I saw the whole galaxy got destroyed rather than what I saw, but in reality I really saw NOTHING.

I would have praised the whole trilogy if the ending resulted in an extremely hard outcome of winning. Galactic Readiness didn't have much of a say in things...

[BirdsallSa]

@Tevix
You can try to slander me and Team BirdsallSa's name all you want, but everyone knows the truth. You are not a member of Team BirdsallSa, because you were not invited. You insult Seival just because he didn't personally thank you for your endorsement, and that's an injustice. I say this with all due respect. Seival doesn't need your endorsement and neither do I. We don't have time to respond to everyone who tries to ride on our coat tails.

Back on topic. The OP has full and unwavering support from Team BirdsallSa. Bioware's message of peace through understanding as opposed to destruction at any cost is a great one. As much as I'd like to stay and preach that here, I have a poll to tend to as I'm collecting data for the big review on tuesday.

[jstme]

Ryoten wrote...

Nope, but the best stories are happy endings.

I respectfully dissagree. Best stories are nothing more then awesomly written stories with fitting finale. Whether their endings generate happiness or not. Heart breaking ending to an awesome dramatic piece is fitting like a glove. 
Hamlet's ending generates little happiness,frnexample,but i doubt you will claim that it is not one of the best stories ever told.
Hamlet with ending like Suicide Mission however..... Brrrrrr. 

[nrobbiec]

TheProtheans wrote...

A lot of vocal pro-enders are trolls, they just ignore facts.

That's not fair.

By your logic I could say a lot of vocal anti-ending fans are trolls, they just whine.

[tevix]

@BirdsallSa

This is the third time I have directly questioned you on very specific things in a polite fashion and you have failed to respond by trying to slide past my post.

1) I didn't slander you or your team. I repeated your own words.
2) I didn't insult Seival, I took a stance on his tendencies and moved on, until you jumped in. I didn't name call or act durogatory in any way.
3) If you or he does not need my (or anyones support) or endorsement then explain why you jump in to defend him and pick fights then run away when politely questioned everytime someone disagrees?

Result: You are unreasonable. I approached you politely, specifically, repeatedly and was ignored. If you cannot discuss in this fashion why discuss at all?

[3DandBeyond]

DinoSteve wrote...

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story... To think about important things, and make your own conclusions. To test you own morality in the crucible of dire and inevitable events. To learn a lesson and find comfort in important things you understood.

To like such story is to accept and understand its main idea. You don't have to be happy after reading. But you will certainly become a little wiser.



Once again, I want to say thanks to BioWare, and especially the writers. I hope you will keep creating stories like Mass Effect Trilogy in the future no matter what some disappointed people say. The Trilogy was golden. The Ending was brilliant. You will be remembered as one of the best sci-fi storytellers.

I don't see how bad writing can make anyone wiser.

I guess it lets you know what not to buy-saves money.

Considering that real honest actual sf storytellers panned this bunch of garbage and that literary people have thoroughly deconstructed it and explained how the endings in no way thematically fit the stories that came before, and that actual people who read realize the endings are atrocious, I think the OP is misguided at best.  This is a person that thinks in games you should have concentration camps.  And that thinks dictators are just great, that there are no heroes and that good does not really exist.  He believes there's no such thing as a hero.  He thinks there should be no free will.  So, I think the lessons learned are ones people have fought to rid the world of as often as is humanly possible.

The endings are bitter and demented, the sweet that the OP believes exists has no basis in rational thought, but exists in slides and cutscenes that only exist to promote the idea the relays did not destroy the galaxy.  It's because BW considered fans stupid for not understanding that in the original endings, even though they showed and said and all but hit us over the head with content that said the relays should have destroyed the galaxy when they exploded. 

There's no corollary at all with real life here.  Synthesis alone makes that idea laughable.  The idea that anyone would choose some shackled form of life when they've just begun to fight a foe they have been trying to get at and join the galaxy together to fight is ridiculous.

And the main idea of this story does not exist at the end-it's been replaced just as surely as has most of the poignant, bittersweet, coherent, rational, and contextual matter that made up the stories.  Sure, there are things that are wrong with the rest of the game, but it falls apart at the end.  The endings are not connected to the rest of the story except by superficial means-characters' names, the setting, and so on connect them, but not the story (or lack thereof).

I certainly appreciated these endings when they were attached to the stories they were ripped from, but in ME3 they have nothing to do with the main ME idea.  The uniting of the galaxy-Shepard is alone and makes a solo decision.  Choices along the way would define the outcome-no, the choice at the end defines the outcome and that is merely determined by EMS, most of which doesn't even have to be earned within the story.  Strength through diversity-nope, it's really about ridding the galaxy of diversity.  Organics, whether they like it or not will be homogenized-either with synthetics that become a part of them or through the control of synthetics over their lives, or by the very lack of synthetics.  Organics learn the lesson that there is no diversity that can exist that accepts synthetics-because organics and synthetics cannot live together on an equal footing.  One must be subservient or one or the other must be destroyed-destroy kills synthetics and synthesis destroys organics.  Redemption-there is none.  The galaxy must surrender and must obey a choice that exists and is given by someone-the kid or the crucible's original creators or just someone.  People have no apparent right to their own destiny-they cannot win it and cannot work toward it-a choice created by an unknown entity and then enacted by Shepard will decide their destiny.  What a wise thing.  And oh, I am so benefitting by learning this.

The OP has some nerve talking about how much he has learned from this game.  He has constantly told people they need to understand real life.  Well, get a clue.  We all have real lives.  We can see the news or read or watch or experience real life.  Yet, when I (an older woman) tried to explain some of what has happened in my real life-the OP called me a liar.  I think he needs to learn what hatred is and what contempt is, for he has shown both in equal measure.  So much for learning some decent lessons from this tripe.

I don't need a video game to try and tell me about real life.  I am alive and I live it every day.

[BirdsallSa]

tevix wrote...

@BirdsallSa

This is the third time I have directly questioned you on very specific things in a polite fashion and you have failed to respond by trying to slide past my post.

1) I didn't slander you or your team. I repeated your own words.
2) I didn't insult Seival, I took a stance on his tendencies and moved on, until you jumped in. I didn't name call or act durogatory in any way.
3) If you or he does not need my (or anyones support) or endorsement then explain why you jump in to defend him and pick fights then run away when politely questioned everytime someone disagrees?

Result: You are unreasonable. I approached you politely, specifically, repeatedly and was ignored. If you cannot discuss in this fashion why discuss at all?

I discuss because for every great poster out there, there are 100 who will fight tooth and nail to make sure that justice and honor doesn't exist on this forum. You question my allegiance to Bioware, why Priority Earth feels better with the difficulty turned up, my integrity as a poster and then call me unreasonable. I don't need to respond to this kind of attempted character assasination.

[Mooner911]

For those who were initially or eventually moved by the trilogy, I believe it was a fluke. Some gamers had fun, played all three games, and moved on unaffected. They got exactly what BW intended. Others, whether they violently raged or shed a few tears received something from the series that BW had not expected.
I hope BW isn't frantically distilling all their creations and the subsequent reactions in search of the perfect recipe because both the good and bad reactions triggered by the outcome of ME were completely unforeseen. That's art.

[BirdsallSa]

3DandBeyond wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Seival wrote...

Some stories are told to teach some vital lessons, or share thoughts on some very important matters. These stories are truely deep and instructive, and they cannot have happy endings. They are all bittersweet. Just like the real life.

Mass Effect Trilogy is that kind of story... To think about important things, and make your own conclusions. To test you own morality in the crucible of dire and inevitable events. To learn a lesson and find comfort in important things you understood.

To like such story is to accept and understand its main idea. You don't have to be happy after reading. But you will certainly become a little wiser.



Once again, I want to say thanks to BioWare, and especially the writers. I hope you will keep creating stories like Mass Effect Trilogy in the future no matter what some disappointed people say. The Trilogy was golden. The Ending was brilliant. You will be remembered as one of the best sci-fi storytellers.

I don't see how bad writing can make anyone wiser.

I guess it lets you know what not to buy-saves money.

Considering that real honest actual sf storytellers panned this bunch of garbage and that literary people have thoroughly deconstructed it and explained how the endings in no way thematically fit the stories that came before, and that actual people who read realize the endings are atrocious, I think the OP is misguided at best.  This is a person that thinks in games you should have concentration camps.  And that thinks dictators are just great, that there are no heroes and that good does not really exist.  He believes there's no such thing as a hero.  He thinks there should be no free will.  So, I think the lessons learned are ones people have fought to rid the world of as often as is humanly possible.

The endings are bitter and demented, the sweet that the OP believes exists has no basis in rational thought, but exists in slides and cutscenes that only exist to promote the idea the relays did not destroy the galaxy.  It's because BW considered fans stupid for not understanding that in the original endings, even though they showed and said and all but hit us over the head with content that said the relays should have destroyed the galaxy when they exploded. 

There's no corollary at all with real life here.  Synthesis alone makes that idea laughable.  The idea that anyone would choose some shackled form of life when they've just begun to fight a foe they have been trying to get at and join the galaxy together to fight is ridiculous.

And the main idea of this story does not exist at the end-it's been replaced just as surely as has most of the poignant, bittersweet, coherent, rational, and contextual matter that made up the stories.  Sure, there are things that are wrong with the rest of the game, but it falls apart at the end.  The endings are not connected to the rest of the story except by superficial means-characters' names, the setting, and so on connect them, but not the story (or lack thereof).

I certainly appreciated these endings when they were attached to the stories they were ripped from, but in ME3 they have nothing to do with the main ME idea.  The uniting of the galaxy-Shepard is alone and makes a solo decision.  Choices along the way would define the outcome-no, the choice at the end defines the outcome and that is merely determined by EMS, most of which doesn't even have to be earned within the story.  Strength through diversity-nope, it's really about ridding the galaxy of diversity.  Organics, whether they like it or not will be homogenized-either with synthetics that become a part of them or through the control of synthetics over their lives, or by the very lack of synthetics.  Organics learn the lesson that there is no diversity that can exist that accepts synthetics-because organics and synthetics cannot live together on an equal footing.  One must be subservient or one or the other must be destroyed-destroy kills synthetics and synthesis destroys organics.  Redemption-there is none.  The galaxy must surrender and must obey a choice that exists and is given by someone-the kid or the crucible's original creators or just someone.  People have no apparent right to their own destiny-they cannot win it and cannot work toward it-a choice created by an unknown entity and then enacted by Shepard will decide their destiny.  What a wise thing.  And oh, I am so benefitting by learning this.

The OP has some nerve talking about how much he has learned from this game.  He has constantly told people they need to understand real life.  Well, get a clue.  We all have real lives.  We can see the news or read or watch or experience real life.  Yet, when I (an older woman) tried to explain some of what has happened in my real life-the OP called me a liar.  I think he needs to learn what hatred is and what contempt is, for he has shown both in equal measure.  So much for learning some decent lessons from this tripe.

I don't need a video game to try and tell me about real life.  I am alive and I live it every day.

The OP has no nerve whatsoever. You know, when I first started posting on this forum I saw things differently than I do now. But people like Seival, Auld Wulf, pretty much all of the ending supporters have it right. You never see them personally attacking people and when they give their word on something they stand by it. Take ending haters on the other hand and all they do is flip flop. We may not be able to trust people but we can trust Bioware and they delivered with the ending. I believe in that.

[tevix]

So now you're accusing me of trying to dispose of "honor and justice"?

Talk about slander...I never said such things about you. If you can't take it upon yourself to explain/defend your own posts why bother posting? There have been many times people I have disagreed with have changed my point of view because they took the time to explain their point of view...sort of the point.

You seem to only want to consider people who agree with you...a fan club as it were. That's fine and all but, not the purpose of a forum. It's to discuss and exchange ideas, consider one another and see where it leads. That's all I've been trying to do with you but each reply of yours sidesteps mine and then makes very harsh, rude, and unnecessary accusations.

Please, if you are willing to discuss your points of view...prove me wrong.

[Mooner911]

I believe this thread topic is: "Not all stories are happiness-generating machines."

[BirdsallSa]

tevix wrote...

So now you're accusing me of trying to dispose of "honor and justice"?

Talk about slander...I never said such things about you. If you can't take it upon yourself to explain/defend your own posts why bother posting? There have been many times people I have disagreed with have changed my point of view because they took the time to explain their point of view...sort of the point.

You seem to only want to consider people who agree with you...a fan club as it were. That's fine and all but, not the purpose of a forum. It's to discuss and exchange ideas, consider one another and see where it leads. That's all I've been trying to do with you but each reply of yours sidesteps mine and then makes very harsh, rude, and unnecessary accusations.

Please, if you are willing to discuss your points of view...prove me wrong.

As I've said, I have no interest in spoonfeeding the answers to anyone, especially not someone who can only toss out insults as the pillars of his argument. I've laid all my points on the table yet you seem incapable of looking at them objectively. You put your own spin on things or have blinders on. I've got bigger fish to fry.

[BirdsallSa]

I'm taking off but lets get the thread back on topic shall we?

Not all stories are happiness generating machines. Mass Effect 3 was a bitter sweet ending and it promoted victory through sacrifice. Don't judge your enemy before you know your enemy as he may not be your enemy at all. And more than anything Believe In The Team.

[tevix]

@BirdsallSa

Spoonfeeding? Discussing points of view with another person is "Spoonfeeding" and not worth the time? Isn't that what you do anytime you respond to ANYONE on here?

What insults have I tossed out? Good lord, man what does it take to get you to sit down and have a friendly exchange of ideas? I actually WANT to get to know you and what you think about different things in the game but you're just...attacking me and shoving me away.

That's not very nice.