631 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

The emotional response they got from me is not the kind that encourages repeat business, though

The emotional response from many people that hated the endings on this board were that it was one of the best games they'd ever played besides the ending. That does encourage repeat business, unless for some bizarre reason you think BioWare is going to try another ending like ME3's OEs.

I've pre-ordered every bioWare game since KOTOR.  I pre-ordered all 3 ME games and both DA games.  I'm not pre-ordering DAI.  

After it comes out and I find out what they decided to do with the ending, I'll decide whehter or not to buy it.   The cost of vidoe games is way too much to puchase a game I'm not positive I'm going to enjoy.  I used to be positve.  ME3 killed that.  

So, no, this kind of emotional response is not the kind that encourages repeat business.  at least not from me.

Modifié par mopotter, 29 juillet 2013 - 11:40 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You have the games with the crap plots like Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights, and ME2.

You sure you don't want to put BG2 on that list? It's got the same plot structure as ME2 -- a minimal skeleton upon which various wholly unrelated sidequests are hung. BG2 gets less grief for it, though, possibly because BG2 had a compelling villain while ME2 did not. (sorry, liggy)

That is fair.

[o Ventus]

AlanC9 wrote...

I got his version too. Although I don't think there are comments from every squadmate after  every mission -- I'd say the average is more like 80%.

Is this the part where we dig up Let's Plays?

There might be comments, but those comments are NOT about the mission that was just played.

Finish Tuchanka --> Javik is talking about the Metacon War.

Finish Sanctuary --> James talks about how much Tuchanka reminds him of his home near the Pacific.

[AlanC9]

o Ventus wrote...

There might be comments, but those comments are NOT about the mission that was just played.

Finish Tuchanka --> Javik is talking about the Metacon War.

Finish Sanctuary --> James talks about how much Tuchanka reminds him of his home near the Pacific.

On PC comments go on a stack. They hold until the next time Shepard talks to the squadmate. James' comment would have come up far earlier if you'd been talking to him. (Don't know about Javik; never bought him.)

Maybe that's bugged on consoles and you're getting them randomly?

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:53 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You have the games with the crap plots like Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights, and ME2.

You sure you don't want to put BG2 on that list? It's got the same plot structure as ME2 -- a minimal skeleton upon which various wholly unrelated sidequests are hung. BG2 gets less grief for it, though, possibly because BG2 had a compelling villain while ME2 did not. (sorry, liggy)

Not to mention BG2 was simply a far more massive game.  One you could spend weeks playing and never see all the content.  While ME2 can be finished with a few days of planet-hopping

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

You have the games with the crap plots like Baldur's Gate 1, Neverwinter Nights, and ME2.

You sure you don't want to put BG2 on that list? It's got the same plot structure as ME2 -- a minimal skeleton upon which various wholly unrelated sidequests are hung. BG2 gets less grief for it, though, possibly because BG2 had a compelling villain while ME2 did not. (sorry, liggy)

Not to mention BG2 was simply a far more massive game.  One you could spend weeks playing and never see all the content.  While ME2 can be finished with a few days of planet-hopping

I'm not sure that's a plus when Bioware keeps using filler plot devices in substitute of an actually developed main plot. Gathering gold to reach Irenicus is nice and all, but it does about as much to develop the story as obtaining the four Star Maps, which is to say it doesn't. It certainly doesn't show Bioware as master story-tellers.

I still maintain that Jade Empire was Bioware's most developed main narrative.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 30 juillet 2013 - 01:12 .

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I'm not sure that's a plus when Bioware keeps using filler plot devices in substitute of an actually developed main plot. Gathering gold to reach Irenicus is nice and all, but it does about as much to develop the story as obtaining the four Star Maps, which is to say it doesn't. It certainly doesn't show Bioware as master story-tellers.

I still maintain that Jade Empire was Bioware's most developed main narrative.

But it does make for side-stories that are detailed, interesting, and immersive.  

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I'm not sure that's a plus when Bioware keeps using filler plot devices in substitute of an actually developed main plot. Gathering gold to reach Irenicus is nice and all, but it does about as much to develop the story as obtaining the four Star Maps, which is to say it doesn't. It certainly doesn't show Bioware as master story-tellers.

I still maintain that Jade Empire was Bioware's most developed main narrative.

But it does make for side-stories that are detailed, interesting, and immersive.  

Which is all well and good, until your subplots begin to override the central story being told, which is what virtually every Bioware game does, via filler content.

People like to point at ME2 as being this interesting exception, to what has essentially been Bioware's modus operandi since day 1. Whether your spend 35 hours finding a crew to battle the Collectors, find 4 Star Maps, or build an army, your central story is on hold for about 70-80% of the game, at least.

If Bioware is composed of good story-tellers, they're certainly not good main quest story-tellers. And as that's the central premise of the game, it should be the most compelling aspect.

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

People like to point at ME2 as being this interesting exception, to what has essentially been Bioware's modus operandi since day 1. Whether your spend 35 hours finding a crew to battle the Collectors, find 4 Star Maps, or build an army, your central story is on hold for about 70-80% of the game, at least.

Not sure I get what you mean.

Dragon Age:  Origins is about building an army after the debacle at ostagar.  .  That's the point of the treaties.  Dealing with Loghain is a big part of it also, but first you gotta replace the army he broke.

The Star Maps, too, were part of the mystery.  If you could just fly straight to the Star Forge there wouldn't be much of a story now would there.

Now, there are side quests at all these hubs as well, but you can pretty much ignore them if you're not interested.


 In ME2, most of these side quests were "required but not" for the main story.  The companions were people Shepard was actively seeking out for the mission, because Reason.  In previous games, the companions were people along the way who offer to help, or who have a vested reason to see you succeed.

In say, BG2, if I don't want to help Nalia regain her family keep, I could just blow her off.  I don't have to help Korgan either.  I could sit back and watch Viconia burn at the stake, leave Trademeet to its fate, etc.  There's a mountain of stuff to do, but I'm not obligated to do any of it.

In ME2, you're all but forced to do so.  Because if you don't Bad Things at the end.  They tried to make the side missions the main story.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

People like to point at ME2 as being this interesting exception, to what has essentially been Bioware's modus operandi since day 1. Whether your spend 35 hours finding a crew to battle the Collectors, find 4 Star Maps, or build an army, your central story is on hold for about 70-80% of the game, at least.

Not sure I get what you mean.

Dragon Age:  Origins is about building an army after the debacle at ostagar.  .  That's the point of the treaties.  Dealing with Loghain is a big part of it also, but first you gotta replace the army he broke.

The Star Maps, too, were part of the mystery.  If you could just fly straight to the Star Forge there wouldn't be much of a story now would there.

Now, there are side quests at all these hubs as well, but you can pretty much ignore them if you're not interested.


 In ME2, most of these side quests were "required but not" for the main story.  The companions were people Shepard was actively seeking out for the mission, because Reason.  In previous games, the companions were people along the way who offer to help, or who have a vested reason to see you succeed.

In say, BG2, if I don't want to help Nalia regain her family keep, I could just blow her off.  I don't have to help Korgan either.  I could sit back and watch Viconia burn at the stake, leave Trademeet to its fate, etc.  There's a mountain of stuff to do, but I'm not obligated to do any of it.

In ME2, you're all but forced to do so.  Because if you don't Bad Things at the end.  They tried to make the side missions the main story.

The implication is that people would be comfortable with engaging in what is essentially filler content, if ME2 did a slightly better job at providing a context to why you gather these random specialists.

At its core, ME2 still isn't any different than either DA:O or KotOR. What the player spends the vast majority of the main quest doing is essentially an elongated side quest, no matter how they choose to justify it. When KotOR threw four Star Maps at the player to acquire on the four different planets, none of those planets had anything to do with the central narrative. Not in the way that Dantooine or the Leviathan move the story forward. The game could have thrown five or twenty Star Maps at the player, and each planet is just as irrelevant to the main story.

What I'm saying is: Bioware games get by on claims of good storytelling, but players spend the vast majority of time engaging in filler arcs, in comparison to other narratives out there. That's not an ME2 issue, that's a Bioware issue. ME2 wouldn't be a substantially better main plot, if TIM had a slightly less ridiculous reason of sending Shepard out for recruitment.

[o Ventus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The implication is that people would be comfortable with engaging in what is essentially filler content, if ME2 did a slightly better job at providing a context to why you gather these random specialists.

At its core, ME2 still isn't any different than either DA:O or KotOR. What the player spends the vast majority of the main quest doing is essentially an elongated side quest, no matter how they choose to justify it. When KotOR threw four Star Maps at the player to acquire on the four different planets, none of those planets had anything to do with the central narrative. Not in the way that Dantooine or the Leviathan move the story forward. The game could have thrown five or twenty Star Maps at the player, and each planet is just as irrelevant to the main story.

What I'm saying is: Bioware games get by on claims of good storytelling, but players spend the vast majority of time engaging in filler arcs, in comparison to other narratives out there. That's not an ME2 issue, that's a Bioware issue. ME2 wouldn't be a substantially better main plot, if TIM had a slightly less ridiculous reason of sending Shepard out for recruitment.

Unless you planned on fighting the Archdemon and its army of darkspawn by yourself, gathering an army was pretty necessary. Same goes for the star maps. Nobody even knew where the Star Forge was. Hell, most people thought it to be a myth (or had never heard of it).

[AlanC9]

o Ventus wrote...

Unless you planned on fighting the Archdemon and its army of darkspawn by yourself, gathering an army was pretty necessary. Same goes for the star maps. Nobody even knew where the Star Forge was. Hell, most people thought it to be a myth (or had never heard of it).

The point, I think, is that what you have to actually do to get the map or the army is wholly unrelated to the main quest. A bunch of essentially arbitrary obstacles are in the PCs path and must be cleared.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

o Ventus wrote...

Unless you planned on fighting the Archdemon and its army of darkspawn by yourself, gathering an army was pretty necessary. Same goes for the star maps. Nobody even knew where the Star Forge was. Hell, most people thought it to be a myth (or had never heard of it).

Alan pretty much gets it.

Whether gathering an army or Star Maps is necessary isn't my point.

Nothing you do in Ferelden or on any of KotOR's planets has even the slightest bit of relevance to your overall goal.

What Bioware did was set up an arbitrary number of subplots for the player to engage in, while the main quest is put on hold for about  75% of the time.

Again, think about KotOR, you needed to collect 4 Star Maps to find the Star Forge. Okay. So why not 5 maps? Or 10? Or 2? If Bioware were to cut out finding the Star Maps, how much time does the player actually spend dealing with the main quest? They're filler content, during which nothing plot critical occurs. It exists simply to extend the length of the game.

While I hate using it as an example because everyone loves it so much, the Witcher 2 is much better in this regard. From the prologue through the epilogue, Geralt spends most of the time dealing with the central premise of the adventure: who are the Assassins of Kings? The game doesn't start with the prologue, then send the player out on 4 different locations pointlessly, before bringing the narrative together.

In short: it's an issue of focus. In a typical Bioware game, the central premise exists to justify the filler content the player engages in.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 30 juillet 2013 - 10:15 .

[Arppis]

Mr.House wrote...

ME series is overrated imo. ME and ME3 where ok but nothing mind blowing. ME2 is one of the most overated piece of trash ever chucked out in the video game industry.

Decent games, but there are better stuff out there, and Bioware has also created better games then ME1,2 and 3.

It all comes down to what you are looking for.

I didn't get hooked up for Fallout 1 or 2 (yes not done by Bioware, I know, but it's an example), even when people say they are the glorious ****** of god down from the heavens and everyone should drink it. Good games, with multiple choices affecting everything. But just couldn't get exited for it. Maybe it's the world, maybe it's the aged interfaces and such? But just couldn't get into it. Same with Baldur's Gate. I play it now and then, but don't get really excited over it.

Mass Effect however pulled me in. Even with those crappy shooting mechanics of the first game. Now the series has it's flaws and it kinda sucks that they seemingly had to simplify the coversation system even more to get more supa action in the 3rd game. But I still consider these games to be great.

They could be better, mind you. But they are already one of my top game franchises. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

Arppis wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ME series is overrated imo. ME and ME3 where ok but nothing mind blowing. ME2 is one of the most overated piece of trash ever chucked out in the video game industry.

Decent games, but there are better stuff out there, and Bioware has also created better games then ME1,2 and 3.

It all comes down to what you are looking for.

I didn't get hooked up for Fallout 1 or 2 (yes not done by Bioware, I know, but it's an example), even when people say they are the glorious ****** of god down from the heavens and everyone should drink it. Good games, with multiple choices affecting everything. But just couldn't get exited for it. Maybe it's the world, maybe it's the aged interfaces and such? But just couldn't get into it. Same with Baldur's Gate. I play it now and then, but don't get really excited over it.

Mass Effect however pulled me in. Even with those crappy shooting mechanics of the first game. Now the series has it's flaws and it kinda sucks that they seemingly had to simplify the coversation system even more to get more supa action in the 3rd game. But I still consider these games to be great.

They could be better, mind you. But they are already one of my top game franchises. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But it's still overrated.It doesn't matter whether you enjoy it or not.They could've given it fair reviews.It doesn't need a 94 metascore for you to enjoy it.Black Ops 2 has 83 metascore on console.Still,it has sold more than all mass effect  games combined

[chemiclord]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Alan pretty much gets it.

Whether gathering an army or Star Maps is necessary isn't my point.

Nothing you do in Ferelden or on any of KotOR's planets has even the slightest bit of relevance to your overall goal.

What Bioware did was set up an arbitrary number of subplots for the player to engage in, while the main quest is put on hold for about  75% of the time.

Again, think about KotOR, you needed to collect 4 Star Maps to find the Star Forge. Okay. So why not 5 maps? Or 10? Or 2? If Bioware were to cut out finding the Star Maps, how much time does the player actually spend dealing with the main quest? They're filler content, during which nothing plot critical occurs. It exists simply to extend the length of the game.

While I hate using it as an example because everyone loves it so much, the Witcher 2 is much better in this regard. From the prologue through the epilogue, Geralt spends most of the time dealing with the central premise of the adventure: who are the Assassins of Kings? The game doesn't start with the prologue, then send the player out on 4 different locations pointlessly, before bringing the narrative together.

In short: it's an issue of focus. In a typical Bioware game, the central premise exists to justify the filler content the player engages in.

Much truth in this post.

Many of the things that Bioware games have you do are largely arbitrary; very little (if nothing) in the "main campaign" quests, especially in the beginning of the game, provide much relevance at all to the main plot itself.

It's fairly easy to see why they do it though.  At some point in CRPG gaming, a stigma was attached that "longer=better."  How long the game was became a sign of how quality that game was... and CRPG developers have jumped all over that by adding sidequest content that is nearly as large as the main storyline itself (if not larger).

I suspect the Witcher series does it better because it was in prose form initially, and novelists really can't get away with such filler material the way game developers can (well, unless your name was Robert Jordan, I suppose).

Modifié par chemiclord, 30 juillet 2013 - 02:27 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

Much truth in this post.

Many of the things that Bioware games have you do are largely arbitrary; very little (if nothing) in the "main campaign" quests, especially in the beginning of the game, provide much relevance at all to the main plot itself.

It's fairly easy to see why they do it though.  At some point in CRPG gaming, a stigma was attached that "longer=better."  How long the game was became a sign of how quality that game was... and CRPG developers have jumped all over that by adding sidequest content that is nearly as large as the main storyline itself (if not larger).

I suspect the Witcher series does it better because it was in prose form initially, and novelists really can't get away with such filler material the way game developers can (well, unless your name was Robert Jordan, I suppose).

I think just the opposite is happening:  games are getting shorter

Gone are the days of the fifty hour playthrus.  Now developers seem to be afraid of straining their players' attention span if it's more than thirty hours. 

I don't see why a game developer can't get away with side quests just as easily as a novelist can get away with "filler" content.  More so, really, since side quests aren't (or shouldn't be) required material.  Much like DLC.

[CronoDragoon]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
In short: it's an issue of focus. In a typical Bioware game, the central premise exists to justify the filler content the player engages in.

True, but I think that's because they are self-aware of how much better they do "filler" content than main quests. Even Mass Effect 3, ostensibly a war against the Reapers, uses them more as a backdrop and impetus for action than as a focus for what you are doing. Tuchanka, Cerberus, Rannoch, sidequests, it's all the same structure as Dragon Age Origins, in which you spend the game building enough forces to take back Earth and, later, to build the Crucible.

[DarthLaxian]

mopotter wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

The emotional response they got from me is not the kind that encourages repeat business, though

The emotional response from many people that hated the endings on this board were that it was one of the best games they'd ever played besides the ending. That does encourage repeat business, unless for some bizarre reason you think BioWare is going to try another ending like ME3's OEs.

I've pre-ordered every bioWare game since KOTOR.  I pre-ordered all 3 ME games and both DA games.  I'm not pre-ordering DAI.  

After it comes out and I find out what they decided to do with the ending, I'll decide whehter or not to buy it.   The cost of vidoe games is way too much to puchase a game I'm not positive I'm going to enjoy.  I used to be positve.  ME3 killed that.  

So, no, this kind of emotional response is not the kind that encourages repeat business.  at least not from me.

hm...

i didn't pre-order those games (i do have them though and i am glad i do (well at least KOTOR, ME1 and 2, DA:O and Awakenings (also the later was not that well done either IMHO...it was the beginning of that downward spiral we are on now) - with the exception of:

- DA2

and:

- ME3

The result is:

That I felt duped (cheated/lied/taken advantage of etc.) each time and I am re-evaluating further pre-orders (even more as I only pre-order (normally) if there are pre-order-bonuses (i hate that they do that by the way, as i feel cheated if i don't pre-order and then only get parts of a game (like say Mass Effect 3 without "From Ashes") and not the full game) and good postings from the developers (i watch all pre-launch-trailers normally, watch inteviews etc.) without such ploys i would probably have not pre-ordered either game (even if i do love both franchises and see those games as highlights in a year (at least if they are done right, which neither game is!) - but i don't pick up bad games, no matter how much i like the surrounding franchise...but if no one tells you how bad a game is, how shall you decide? - well, i am still thinking about all of that!)

greetings LAX
ps: I don't know yet if i will pre-order DA:I - but i am contemplating not pre-ordering...all in all, DA:I might be my last pre-order (if they **** with me again in the way they did with DA2 and ME3 - with the marketing-lies (yes, marketing can't say negative things, i understand that, but if marketing tells me that a scooter is an Aston Martin (for me that is a valid comparison between what they said about endings, meaningfull decisions etc. and what we got in the end!) then something is WRONG and IMHO i am right to feel betrayed!)

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 30 juillet 2013 - 05:41 .

[nevar00]

Oh I agree completely with just about everything you said. Thing is that ME 1 and 2's flaws were, for me at least, far easier to forgive and look ahead of.

For example a huge flaw in ME 1 was the really bad checkpoints, confusing maps, and dull level design. This made my first playthrough borderline miserable. After giving the game a second go though I enjoyed it much more as I wasn't getting lost nearly as much and knew to save very often. The gameplay, while clunky, also felt almost freer than in 2 and 3 where, as you said, you just enter a room, take cover, and shoot. ME 1 gave you many more options in combat.

ME 2's flaws are mostly to do with the overall story but as a stand-alone game it's still great.

ME 3 neutered what was so great about the first two games - the characters, story, etc - by introducing plot devices and poor/lazy writing such as Cerberus suddenly having a huge army and going through more or less the same discussions with TIM from ME 2 as well as decisions having almost no payoff. Overall the flaws in this game made it far, far less fun to play whereas despite the flaws in ME 2 it was still fun and the flaws in ME 1 could be forgiven after the first playthrough.

[ioannisdenton]

I would lock this thread. i do sound like an idiot but this how i feel after reading the title.
Let me mention overated games this gen:
Uncharted 3 which was so NOT to 2's level, god of war all pf them, Halos all of them, all of assassin's creed games, CoD, gears of wars, Grand theft auto .
Wanna know what all these overated games have in common? Once you ve played them once you will not play them again, you ve seen everything there is. Once you ve played one part of the series you need not to play the next installemnt, it will be the same.
Unlike Mass effect games which gave me reasons to play the HELL out of them again again and made me fit into shepards shoes (do not know the exact expression but i ll use it anyway for the goofy part).
With mass effect i had a reason why to shoot people or why i had to care about characters.

[o Ventus]

ioannisdenton wrote...

I would lock this thread. i do sound like an idiot but this how i feel after reading the title.
Let me mention overated games this gen:
Uncharted 3 which was so NOT to 2's level, god of war all pf them, Halos all of them, all of assassin's creed games, CoD, gears of wars, Grand theft auto .

Have you actually played any of these games?

[SNascimento]

Mass Effect is the single greatest series this gen. Simple as that.