631 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

David7204 wrote...
That's exactly what we're talking about. No, you see, any clown can write a video game story with a 'super-badass' self insert. Any clown can write a story with an 'avatar.' And believe it or not, that doesn't instantly make characters instantly popular and emotionally compelling! Clearly, something else is at work here. Something you've decided to simply ignore. And sometimes that applies just as equally in-universe as out of it.

It's the possibility of customization and the recognizing every second step as noteworthy and special that endears the player to Shepard.

Many players feel a comparable level of attachment to their main avatars in MMORPGs.

You're wrong.

The reason that both players and characters in-universe respect and love Shepard is incredibly simple.

S/he's a hero. That's all there is to it.

S/he's a hero because s/he's the protagonist (no matter what they do).
And s/he's the protagonist because s/he's the hero (no matter what they do).

[David7204]

You're completely right on the second part. You're completely wrong on the first.

[iamthedave3]

David7204 wrote...

You're completely right on the second part. You're completely wrong on the first.

My, that's a compelling argument.

[Nightdragon8]

David7204 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

David7204 wrote...
That's exactly what we're talking about. No, you see, any clown can write a video game story with a 'super-badass' self insert. Any clown can write a story with an 'avatar.' And believe it or not, that doesn't instantly make characters instantly popular and emotionally compelling! Clearly, something else is at work here. Something you've decided to simply ignore. And sometimes that applies just as equally in-universe as out of it.

It's the possibility of customization and the recognizing every second step as noteworthy and special that endears the player to Shepard.

Many players feel a comparable level of attachment to their main avatars in MMORPGs.

You're wrong.

The reason that both players and characters in-universe respect and love Shepard is incredibly simple.

S/he's a hero. That's all there is to it.

all Main Protagansts are "Heros" thats like Story telling 101. No one really wants to hear about number 2. Look at StarTrek.

Captain Kirk. he is a big hero he pulls off the impossible. Even beating an "unbeatable" simulation. Just because he feels the idea of a situation as being unwinable as impossible.
Then ST:TNG Captain Picard. I mean most of the time in TNG whenever Riker gets put in charge everything goes to hell. 
Then DS9 Sisco and the series ended with his death or ascension.
Then you have Voyager, pretty much it was Voyager that was the main hero, but it was Janeway at the end that was the big hero.

So yea in every game out there you play "as the Hero" so its just the norm. Thats why no one says anything about it.

Honestly I bet there is only like 1 game where you don't play the Hero. And thats possibly Metal Gear: Solid Snake 3

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 01 mars 2013 - 11:12 .

[Indy_S]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

all Main Protagansts are "Heros" thats like Story telling 101. No one really wants to hear about number 2. Look at StarTrek.

Captain Kirk. he is a big hero he pulls off the impossible. Even beating an "unbeatable" simulation. Just because he feels the idea of a situation as being unwinable as impossible.
Then ST:TNG Captain Picard. I mean most of the time in TNG whenever Riker gets put in charge everything goes to hell. 
Then DS9 Sisco and the series ended with his death or ascension.
Then you have Voyager, pretty much it was Voyager that was the main hero, but it was Janeway at the end that was the big hero.

So yea in every game out there you play "as the Hero" so its just the norm. Thats why no one says anything about it.

Heavy Rain has four protagonists, none of which are heroes. I'm not sure a definitive link exists between protagonist and hero.

[Nightdragon8]

Indy_S wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

all Main Protagansts are "Heros" thats like Story telling 101. No one really wants to hear about number 2. Look at StarTrek.

Captain Kirk. he is a big hero he pulls off the impossible. Even beating an "unbeatable" simulation. Just because he feels the idea of a situation as being unwinable as impossible.
Then ST:TNG Captain Picard. I mean most of the time in TNG whenever Riker gets put in charge everything goes to hell. 
Then DS9 Sisco and the series ended with his death or ascension.
Then you have Voyager, pretty much it was Voyager that was the main hero, but it was Janeway at the end that was the big hero.

So yea in every game out there you play "as the Hero" so its just the norm. Thats why no one says anything about it.

Heavy Rain has four protagonists, none of which are heroes. I'm not sure a definitive link exists between protagonist and hero.

I will disagree with you about Heavy Rain... all of them end up doing some pretty "Heroic" things to get out of the situations they are in.

There aren't that may games out there where you play the "Bad guy" Overlord is about the only one that comes to mind, and maybe dungeon builder.

Oh and that new game "Towns" i think where you are a city planer that tries to bring in heros to be able to get tehre loot from a nearby dungeon. But even then you are the one in control and building the economy.

[ioannisdenton]

Joke thread?? what?
No mass effect is NOT overrated at all.
Crysis - halo - god of war are overated.

[AllThatJazz]

Nah, in my opinion the whole ME series is fantastic fun, and definitely one of my all time favourite series of games (along with most Fallouts, and Deus Ex 1 & HR). That all of the games have flaws doesn't mean they aren't great or even that they are overrated. I think that the wonderful things about the games outweigh the flaws by a considerable margin, at least they do for me - and if I based the greatness or otherwise of games based purely on whether or not they are perfect, well there would be no great games at all. Planescape Torment had horrible combat, the second Fallout an uninspired main storyline, Knights of the Old Republic 2 a stupid non-ending and rushed final planet, Bioshock one of the easiest and most anti-climactic final boss fights ever. All still great games.

[nos_astra]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
I will disagree with you about Heavy Rain... all of them end up doing some pretty "Heroic" things to get out of the situations they are in.

There is a difference between doing heroic things and being a recognized hero whom everyone respects and loves (unless blatantly wrong or evil).

The former category is about normal people who find themselves in a situation that requires them to rise above what they thought they were able to do. If there is recognition afterwards it's often short-lived ... just like in the real world. The focus is on the character, how they feel, how they cope, how they go on, how they can fail and basically how they're human.

Shepard (as many game protagonists) is firmly planted in the latter category. The focus is on all the awesome things he does and how these things pile up and create an image larger than life that the protagonist will, of course, no doubt about that, live up to. It's basically comic book style.

The latter has the advantage that it requires less brain. People who play the game for gameplay are happy. People who do not are used to it and are thrown a few bones with side characters and side missions. They also begin to write fanfiction. Fanfiction (if well-written) usually tries to go for the former category.

Now, if only games in general would mature enough to do away with the comic book heros.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 mars 2013 - 11:46 .

[iamthedave3]

Indy_S wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

all Main Protagansts are "Heros" thats like Story telling 101. No one really wants to hear about number 2. Look at StarTrek.

Captain Kirk. he is a big hero he pulls off the impossible. Even beating an "unbeatable" simulation. Just because he feels the idea of a situation as being unwinable as impossible.
Then ST:TNG Captain Picard. I mean most of the time in TNG whenever Riker gets put in charge everything goes to hell. 
Then DS9 Sisco and the series ended with his death or ascension.
Then you have Voyager, pretty much it was Voyager that was the main hero, but it was Janeway at the end that was the big hero.

So yea in every game out there you play "as the Hero" so its just the norm. Thats why no one says anything about it.

Heavy Rain has four protagonists, none of which are heroes. I'm not sure a definitive link exists between protagonist and hero.

Three of them aren't, but I think the central man tips the scale maybe a little. The rooftop scene - assuming you pull it off - certainly tips it for me. It's a good example, though.

If you want a defining line, in a literary sense, it's about seeking for heroic qualities, defined as things that are beyond the norm or approaching unbelievable. The heroic flaw is traditional but not required. The characters in the ME universe have the usual heroic qualities of skill and power, they are vastly superior yet vastly outnumbered, and can slaughter hundreds (if not thousands) of the endless enemy so they stand alone against blah de blah.

Heavy Rain mostly shirks that. The characters are mortal, and not greatly above their environment, they're not even the best at what they do ™. But the central figure's search for his son approaches heroism in the lengths he has to go to (and succeeds in going to) in order to find and rescue him.

Or it can be like my girlfriend's playthrough where he was a complete loser who lolfailed at everything and got arrested at the earliest point possible in the narrative, leaving only Madison and... Nolan is it? The FBI guy? To complete the rescue.

I am shame. I love Heavy Rain to bits and should know the protagonists' names by now. Can't wait for Beyond.

Modifié par iamthedave3, 01 mars 2013 - 11:44 .

[nos_astra]

iamthedave3 wrote...
Or it can be like my girlfriend's playthrough where he was a complete loser who lolfailed at everything and got arrested at the earliest point possible in the narrative, leaving only Madison and... Nolan is it? The FBI guy? To complete the rescue. 

Does the game still treat the guy like a hero?

[Indy_S]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Or it can be like my girlfriend's playthrough where he was a complete loser who lolfailed at everything and got arrested at the earliest point possible in the narrative, leaving only Madison and... Nolan is it? The FBI guy? To complete the rescue.

The best possible outcome is to get all the 'good' guys killed and let the serial killer get away without any issue at all.

[Darth_Trethon]

The OP is more than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% correct. And he is beyond extremely generous with the franchise flaw list by kindly choosing to leave out a lot of flaws including all the worst ones.

[o Ventus]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The OP is more than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% correct. And he is beyond extremely generous with the franchise flaw list by kindly choosing to leave out a lot of flaws including all the worst ones.

Not sure if srs

[MECavScout01]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The OP is more than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% correct. And he is beyond extremely generous with the franchise flaw list by kindly choosing to leave out a lot of flaws including all the worst ones.

He is not correct. You can't be correct on an opinion. You may strongly agree with his opinion, but don't call it a fact.

I believe ME2 and ME1 (in that order) are two of my top three games (with KotOR coming in at number 3), and I certainly agree with all the praise they both get. But I also know that they (ME2) in particular may have alienated many fans of BW, just as BW has alienated me with TOR and ME3, along with their general attitude towards the community.

[iamthedave3]

klarabella wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...
Or it can be like my girlfriend's playthrough where he was a complete loser who lolfailed at everything and got arrested at the earliest point possible in the narrative, leaving only Madison and... Nolan is it? The FBI guy? To complete the rescue. 

Does the game still treat the guy like a hero?

Oh I know what you're getting at, and no. It doesn't ever really treat him like one. Most of the time it treats him as someone who's on the very edge of going completely stark raving bonkers and up until the halfway point I was still edging around a theory that there was a twist coming where it would indeed turn out he's the killer.

But he does display heroic qualities that raise him somewhat above the ordinary person, and thus you could argue he's a heroic character. It's much harder to make that argument for the rest of the cast.

[iamthedave3]

Indy_S wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Or it can be like my girlfriend's playthrough where he was a complete loser who lolfailed at everything and got arrested at the earliest point possible in the narrative, leaving only Madison and... Nolan is it? The FBI guy? To complete the rescue.

The best possible outcome is to get all the 'good' guys killed and let the serial killer get away without any issue at all.

Interesting statement. Why would you say that?

[nos_astra]

iamthedave3 wrote...
Oh I know what you're getting at, and no. It doesn't ever really treat him like one. Most of the time it treats him as someone who's on the very edge of going completely stark raving bonkers and up until the halfway point I was still edging around a theory that there was a twist coming where it would indeed turn out he's the killer. 

But he does display heroic qualities that raise him somewhat above the ordinary person, and thus you could argue he's a heroic character. It's much harder to make that argument for the rest of the cast.

But there is your difference.

Shepard's actions are supposed to be unsusual and often controversial.

The universe, however, doesn't acknowledge what you've actually done. Or how you've done it. Other characters aren't allowed to have any other opinion than "whatever you did Shepard, it was for the best and no one else could have done it any other way" ... even when it's pretty obvious that other options would have led to a better outcome or Shepard didn't even care about the outcome and instead just felt like killing someone.

Shepard is a hero not because of what he does.
Shepard is not even a hero despite of what he does.

Shepard is a hero just because.

And I really don't like this sort of character.

[2Shepards]

McFlurry598 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Think about all the problems you've had with each of the games. Just think about it. Are these games really amongst the greatest of all time? Was there really a legacy to keep? Is it really worth it to get worked up over them?

ME1

- Poor shooting mechanics

- Poorly designed and repeatdley used buildings for side quests.

- Redundant, time consuming side quests. Find the writings, collect minerals, etc.

- "Illusion of choice" speech options. You're character would say the same thing no matter what you chose.

- Buggy at certain moments and in certain situations. The infinite falling motion comes to mind.

- Characters that were predictable, mainly looking at Garrus, Ashley and Kaidan.

ME2

- Didn't advance the main plot in any significant way.

- The death at the beginning really felt like an excuse to introduce new characters. I know it was the purpose, but it was extremely obvious.

- Getting upgrades involved tedious planet scanning.

- Higher difficulty = Slap armor on everything.

- Extremely predictable combat. Run into a room, take place behind the obvious cover. Level design felt uninspired.

- Paragon/Renegade speech system limited players very much.


ME3

- A lot of scripted interactions with your squad mates. Having choice in your reaction is half the interest.

- Many of the things that were important or good in ME1 and ME2 were really made irrelevant. Almost seemed like the team did it on purpose. A lot of squad mates were cut, decisions were completely disregarded or made irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and romantic relationships were actively destroyed.

- War assets in the place of a seen difference.

- Side quests that combined the tediousness of ME1 fetching with ME2 scanning. They improved the scanning, but removed the exploration involved with fetching.

- Horrible journal system.

- Uninspired characters, such as Kai Leng, being of major importance in the game.



Now I'm not saying the series was bad. I'm just saying that I'm not quite sure it deserves the title of one of the best ever, given it's flaws. I'm also saying that when considering the flaws, ME3 isn't really that bad when compared to the first two.

Ok dude, I think thats enough ME bashing for you. First you  bash on Admiral Hackett, now ALL the Mass Effects? Wtf is your problem? Stop bashing on ME and spamming the forums

OH GOD!  Not an opinion that differs from your own.  Which is entirely based in fact.  Holy**** call the police!

[o Ventus]

2Shepards wrote...

OH GOD!  Not an opinion that differs from your own.  Which is entirely based in fact.  Holy**** call the police!

"opinion", "based in fact". Lolno.

[ioannisdenton]

My favorite game series are:
Mass effect
Deus ex (except IW)
Dragon age series
Uncharted (FANTASTIC underrated games which rarely one discuss about except the pretty graphics,it has terrific characters - fantastic voice acting - actors that bioware ALSO has utilised Flyn is AListair, Cloe is Morrigan, in Uncharted 3you can hear Fenris as a generic agent voice).
everything else comes long after.
These are the games i keep comong back for multiple playthroughs

[The Heretic of Time]

ioannisdenton wrote...

Joke thread?? what?
No mass effect is NOT overrated at all.
Crysis - halo - god of war are overated.

Mass Effect is more over-rated AND over-hyped than any of those games you just listed.

[ioannisdenton]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

ioannisdenton wrote...

Joke thread?? what?
No mass effect is NOT overrated at all.
Crysis - halo - god of war are overated.

Mass Effect is more over-rated AND over-hyped than any of those games you just listed.

Correct me if i am wrong but i think that Me3 was overhyped by EA and Bioware but only after Me2 became a success. All these docs and interviews and lies...
Personally i ve played halo1 halo 3 all of god of war games and crysis 2 which i got bored after 10 hours. The fact that Mass effect series pulled me to play them again and again and these games did not confirms my personal preference

Modifié par ioannisdenton, 01 mars 2013 - 01:56 .

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


@Klarabela

There's also the borderline sycophantic tendency for almost all sympathetic characters to praise the player Shepard on how great/awesome the Commander is, and to be appropriately conciliatory and submissive to Shepard's will, while the single most common characteristic of Bad People is that they're rude to Shepard and disrespectful.

That is simply not true at all.

Yes, characters praise Shepard after completeing missions successfully, but it's not blind praise. Fail any loyalty mission in ME 2 and the character in question becomes bitter and resentful. Make a choice that a squadmate disagrees with, and they voice their concerns pretty often. There are dozens of instances through the series where squadmates confront Shepard over major or minor issues.

Ow come on, lets be honest here, the entire Mass Effect series is a complete juvenile power-trip, right until the last 5 minutes of the trilogy, where the power-trip ends and the harsh reality (that you can't always have it your way and that sometimes compromises have to be made) hits in. It's one of the major reasons why people hate the ending, or why they desperately believe in the Indoctrination Theory. They can't believe that their Jesus Shepard isn't allowed to just kick the reapers in the daddybags, go home and have many blue babies with his/her waifu.

But until the end of Mass Effect 3, the entire series really is just a juvenile power-trip, where the player can talk-jutsu the main antagonist into comitting suicide, TWICE, where the player can go on a suicide misson, and get out of there with not single man lost, where the player can drop loads on the faces of his/her superiors and get away with it, where the player can use the council of the galaxy as his/her verbal punching bags and get away with it.
In short, the player can basically do whatever the f*ck he wants, and get away with it, without any serious compromises and without any serious repercussions. Oh, and lets not forget about how all the Normandy squad members are all "shepardsexual". And whenever the characters isn't shepardsexual, the fanbase is dissapointed and/or angry about it.

And worst of all, is that BioWare only strengthed this childish juvenile power-trip by turning all the characters that were generally disliked by the fanbase into shallow badguys just so the player can drop his virtual loads on them so the player can feel good about himself. Just take a look at Udina. He was a good man, but the fanbase hated him and wanted to drop their loads on him, so BioWare turned him into a baddy without much of a real explanation, simply so the kids could shoot him in the brain and feel good about themselves. Pathetic...

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 mars 2013 - 02:11 .