180 réponses à ce sujet

[Devoidparanoia]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

4 URs, 3 are garbage.

this, bpp is terrabad:crying:

[joker_jack]

double post. stupid droid

[BridgeBurner]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Flambrose wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

According to our balance testing, without reload canceling the BPP does about 23% less sustained damage than the Hurricane on non-armored targets, but about 29% more sustained damage than the Hurricane on armored targets. Like any fast firing weapon, you should put a penetration mod on the weapon if you want good damage against armor. The BPP, like the Hurricane, is balanced around being a close range SMG. If you use it at long distances, you will no doubt miss with a lot of your bullets and your damage will drop significantly.

Comparing weapons between single player and multiplayer is not very useful since those 2 games are balanced very differently. It's true that many of the new weapons do significantly less damage in MP than their counterparts in single player, but those weapons in my opinion are way too powerful in single player but we don't have a live system for changing them.

I haven't done the numbers, but I'm fairly sure Hurricane would win out in reload cancelled DPS even against armor. Hurricane and BPP have the same reload times while BPP has effectively twice the clip size. Hurricane benefits much more from reload cancelling.

It's also more accurate, of course.

The Hurricane does get closer with reload canceling but the BPP should still do about 20% more to armor, with both weapons at level X.

My hurricane is X, my BPP is IX. According to you, a BPP should still kill an armoured target.... I'll test on scion and record.

The BPP is a pretty awesome gun, however it really only shines on geth / marksman characters.

Modifié par Annomander, 06 mars 2013 - 08:19 .

[Scam_poo]

How is it official without proof?

I can just as well say, uhm, I just ran some some tests. The Mantis is better than the Widow. Things drop more quickly.

[Eric Fagnan]

january42 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

According to our balance testing, without reload canceling the BPP does about 23% less sustained damage than the Hurricane on non-armored targets, but about 29% more sustained damage than the Hurricane on armored targets. Like any fast firing weapon, you should put a penetration mod on the weapon if you want good damage against armor. The BPP, like the Hurricane, is balanced around being a close range SMG. If you use it at long distances, you will no doubt miss with a lot of your bullets and your damage will drop significantly.

How do you figure that.  I used the stats from here.  As far as I've seem, the way the BPP works is, every 8th bullet does 5X damage with a 2.5 multiplier vs armor.   We just compare per 8 bullets as the clip size and ROF are the same forth both guns(600).


A Hurricane X does
nonarmor=   128.1 * 8 = 1024.8
vs armor:  (128.1-50) * 8 = 624.8
with ap barrel = (128.1-5) * 8 = 984.8

I wasn't sure about this, so we will give the BPP the benfit of the doubte and assume that the ap bullet comes out in addiiton to a normal bullet. (so it's actually firing 9 bullets here, 8 normal and 1 ap.)
BPP X does:
non armor = 47.75 * 8 + 5 * 47.75 = 620.75
vs armor =  5 * 8 + (5 * 47.75) * 2.5 -50 = 586.875  (minimum damage is 5 IIRC)
with ap barrel = (47.75-5)*8 +  (5*47.75) * 2.5  - 5 = 933.875

With the AP barrel the Punisher comes close to hurricane but doesn't seem to beat it.  And it's significantly worse in every other case.  What did I do wrong there?

Those numbers get even worse if there isn't a normal bullet fired at the same time as the AP bullet.

Does it always fire the ap bullent when you start firing so you supposed to rapidly press the trigger instead of holding it down or something?

On top of the x5 damage multiplier for the AP round, that bullet also gets a x2.5 damage multiplier to armor resistances, which is multiplicative on the final damage of the bullet.

[Shezo]

Problem with BBP is it reliance on AP round.
If you miss some rounds with hurricane, you will lose proportional amount of damage.
If you miss your AP round (and it's easy to do considering the accuracy), you lose a ton of damage, especially if it's armored target.
So you can't quite compare hurricane and BBP.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

On top of the x5 damage multiplier for the AP round, that bullet also gets a x2.5 damage multiplier to armor resistances, which is multiplicative on the final damage of the bullet.

So that bullet is 5x against everything, and 12.5x against armor?  If I'm understanding that right.  And it can score headshots, so Boss headshots would be at least a 17.5x bonus (without passive HS bonus).

[BlackDahlia424]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

On top of the x5 damage multiplier for the AP round, that bullet also gets a x2.5 damage multiplier to armor resistances, which is multiplicative on the final damage of the bullet.

So that bullet is 5x against everything, and 12.5x against armor?  If I'm understanding that right.  And it can score headshots, so Boss headshots would be at least a 17.5x bonus (without passive HS bonus).

What I took out of it is that the AP round has an additive bonus of 500% to everything. But to armored targets, it has an additional 2.5 multiplicative bonus to the total damage of the round - meaning that it benefits more when applying more additive bonuses.

[BjornDaDwarf]

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

On top of the x5 damage multiplier for the AP round, that bullet also gets a x2.5 damage multiplier to armor resistances, which is multiplicative on the final damage of the bullet.

So that bullet is 5x against everything, and 12.5x against armor?  If I'm understanding that right.  And it can score headshots, so Boss headshots would be at least a 17.5x bonus (without passive HS bonus).

What I took out of it is that the AP round has an additive bonus of 500% to everything. But to armored targets, it has an additional 2.5 multiplicative bonus to the total damage of the round - meaning that it benefits more when applying more additive bonuses.

He said multiplier, so I take the 5x to be purely multipicative against everything.  And the 2.5x is multiplicative against armor (on top of 5x).  Boss headshots are 1.4x multiplicative.  Hence the 17.5x bonus on that one round. 

[Flambrose]

Taking my data from: https://docs.google....tput=html&gid=8

Here's how I go about estimating the armor DPS of the BPP..

Every 8 shots, it fires one AP round (assuming 7 normal shots + 1 AP shot). I'm assuming Cyonan's sheet is correct in taking into account the AP round's 5x modifier.

Against armor, that shot will have a 2.5x modifier. Because DPS is a multiplicative function, we can create a proportional coefficient for the armor damage to the DPS.

The damage per 8 bullets is: 7*47.75 + 47.75*(5) = 334.25 + 238.75 = 573
The damage per 8 bullets to armor is: 7*47.75 + 47.75*(5)*(2.5) = 334.25 + 596.875 = 931.125

We divide the armor damage volley's value by the normal damage volley's value (say that 5 times fast), and we get 1.625

BPPX (non-armor)
Burst DPS: 716.25
Sustained DPS: 520.91
RC Sustained DPS: 593.17

BPPX (to armor)
Burst DPS: 1,163.90
Sustained DPS: 846.48
RC Sustained DPS: 963.90

Hurricane X
Burst DPS: 1281.00
Sustained DPS: 732.00
RC Sustained DPS: 905.30

According to my method and Cyonan's numbers, this leaves the BPP with a 6% increase over Hurricane's reload cancelled DPS. This is without factoring in armor deductions.

I'd like to see what that recording says about the issue, myself. Even if BPP had a 20% DPS advantage over Hurricane, it loses completely to Hurricane against everything else, and is less accurate. I just don't see the point.

Modifié par Flambrose, 06 mars 2013 - 08:49 .

[BlackDahlia424]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

He said multiplier, so I take the 5x to be purely multipicative against everything.  And the 2.5x is multiplicative against armor (on top of 5x).  Boss headshots are 1.4x multiplicative.  Hence the 17.5x bonus on that one round. 

You could be right about that, but it would be nice to get some clarification on that. And multiplicative bonuses add together I believe, not multiply. I think the typical formula is:
(Base * (1 + Additive Bonuses)) * (Multplicative 1 + Multiplicative 2 .... Multiplicative N)

I could be wrong though.

[BjornDaDwarf]

BlackDahlia424 wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

He said multiplier, so I take the 5x to be purely multipicative against everything.  And the 2.5x is multiplicative against armor (on top of 5x).  Boss headshots are 1.4x multiplicative.  Hence the 17.5x bonus on that one round. 

You could be right about that, but it would be nice to get some clarification on that. And multiplicative bonuses add together I believe, not multiply. I think the typical formula is:
(Base * (1 + Additive Bonuses)) * (Multplicative 1 + Multiplicative 2 .... Multiplicative N)

I could be wrong though.

Nope, multiplicative bonuses multiply times eachother.  There are several powers that can have 2-3 multipliers, which can end up with a final multiplier far larger than the two/three added together (all this has been tested).  However, there are very, very few guns that have more than one multiplier (maybe none except the BPP?), so this is kind of unique.  

[Flambrose]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Nope, multiplicative bonuses multiply times eachother.  There are several powers that can have 2-3 multipliers, which can end up with a final multiplier far larger than the two/three added together (all this has been tested).  However, there are very, very few guns that have more than one multiplier (maybe none except the BPP?), so this is kind of unique.  

I'm nearly 100% sure you're correct, but keep in mind that without these special multipliers the BPP loses to Hurricane handily.

[CYB3RFR34K]

Tempest IS OP.

for me the best smg in the game~

Modifié par CYB3RFR34K, 06 mars 2013 - 09:20 .

[BridgeBurner]

Ok, played gold glacier collectors. Wave 2 scion test using hurricane / BPP.

Scion scion sustained 0 prior damage to engaging it, was unpossessed.

Played at 60 FPS, recorded at 30 FPS using fraps.

For the BPP IX:
heat sink
extended magazine
AP ammo III
SMG rail amp II
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage


For the hurricane:
heat sink,
magazine
AP ammo II
targetting VI III
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage



Judging by the frame by frame analysis of the recording, it took me 271 frames to kill a scion with no sac burst, and 0 headshots using the BPP; ergo, @30 frames per second, it took slightly over 9 seconds to kill a scion using only bodyshots. no reload required.

Using the hurricane, it took 295 frames (almost 10% longer; nearly 10 seconds) to kill the scion with 20% less damage, and 10% less ammo power damage, and less armour penetration (65% instead of 75%), with one reload cancel; no headshots and no sac bursting.

The higher base damage of the hurricane means it scales MUCH better with equipment than the Punisher does, and even without having to reload, the gun does not outdo the hurricane.

The numbers are also VERY misleading, as I could have headshotted the scion, in which case I would inevitably fail a few headshots, resulting in body shots. This "RNG" element thanks to bullet spread would work in favour of the hurricane, as it's damage isn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon. Miss your headshot with the AP round on the punisher and the damage plummets, miss your headshot with the hurricane and its only a small drop.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that the hurricane destroys everything, the BPP is "comparable" against armour; but not better; despite having the test heavily stacked in its favour.



My suggestion, for balance changes would be to nerf the AP shot's 500% damage modifier to 250%, halve the +bonus recoil (controlling hurricane recoil, with every 8th being a saber recoil jerk is just brutal on your mouse hand) and compensate by giving the BPP more base damage per shot. I'm no mathematician, but you guys should keep its current DPS versus armour the same and boost its DPS vesus everything else.

Headshots with the hurricane make a mockery of anything, headshots with the BPP tickle... and if you happen to miss the AP round....


TL:DR: The weapon would be really worth using if it wasn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon.

Modifié par Annomander, 06 mars 2013 - 09:28 .

[Stardusk]

Annomander wrote...

Ok, played gold glacier collectors. Wave 2 scion test using hurricane / BPP.

Scion scion sustained 0 prior damage to engaging it, was unpossessed.

Played at 60 FPS, recorded at 30 FPS using fraps.

For the BPP IX:
heat sink
extended magazine
AP ammo III
SMG rail amp II
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage


For the hurricane:
heat sink,
magazine
AP ammo II
targetting VI III
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage



Judging by the frame by frame analysis of the recording, it took me 271 frames to kill a scion with no sac burst, and 0 headshots using the BPP; ergo, @30 frames per second, it took slightly over 9 seconds to kill a scion using only bodyshots. no reload required.

Using the hurricane, it took 295 frames (almost 10% longer; nearly 10 seconds) to kill the scion with 20% less damage, and 10% less ammo power damage, and less armour penetration (65% instead of 75%), with one reload cancel; no headshots and no sac bursting.

The higher base damage of the hurricane means it scales MUCH better with equipment than the Punisher does, and even without having to reload, the gun does not outdo the hurricane.

The numbers are also VERY misleading, as I could have headshotted the scion, in which case I would inevitably fail a few headshots, resulting in body shots. This "RNG" element thanks to bullet spread would work in favour of the hurricane, as it's damage isn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon. Miss your headshot with the AP round on the punisher and the damage plummets, miss your headshot with the hurricane and its only a small drop.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that the hurricane destroys everything, the BPP is "comparable" against armour; but not better; despite having the test heavily stacked in its favour.



My suggestion, for balance changes would be to nerf the AP shot's 500% damage modifier to 250%, halve the +bonus recoil (controlling hurricane recoil, with every 8th being a saber recoil jerk is just brutal on your mouse hand) and compensate by giving the BPP more base damage per shot. I'm no mathematician, but you guys should keep its current DPS versus armour the same and boost its DPS vesus everything else.

Headshots with the hurricane make a mockery of anything, headshots with the BPP tickle... and if you happen to miss the AP round....


TL:DR: The weapon would be really worth using if it wasn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon.

[TeamLexana]

It's pretty bad. I'm finding it pretty horrible to level for the Reckoning Challenge. I'm not sure about numbers but the Hurricane far outpreforms the bpp by longshot.

[BridgeBurner]

Stardusk wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Ok, played gold glacier collectors. Wave 2 scion test using hurricane / BPP.

Scion scion sustained 0 prior damage to engaging it, was unpossessed.

Played at 60 FPS, recorded at 30 FPS using fraps.

For the BPP IX:
heat sink
extended magazine
AP ammo III
SMG rail amp II
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage


For the hurricane:
heat sink,
magazine
AP ammo II
targetting VI III
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage



Judging by the frame by frame analysis of the recording, it took me 271 frames to kill a scion with no sac burst, and 0 headshots using the BPP; ergo, @30 frames per second, it took slightly over 9 seconds to kill a scion using only bodyshots. no reload required.

Using the hurricane, it took 295 frames (almost 10% longer; nearly 10 seconds) to kill the scion with 20% less damage, and 10% less ammo power damage, and less armour penetration (65% instead of 75%), with one reload cancel; no headshots and no sac bursting.

The higher base damage of the hurricane means it scales MUCH better with equipment than the Punisher does, and even without having to reload, the gun does not outdo the hurricane.

The numbers are also VERY misleading, as I could have headshotted the scion, in which case I would inevitably fail a few headshots, resulting in body shots. This "RNG" element thanks to bullet spread would work in favour of the hurricane, as it's damage isn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon. Miss your headshot with the AP round on the punisher and the damage plummets, miss your headshot with the hurricane and its only a small drop.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that the hurricane destroys everything, the BPP is "comparable" against armour; but not better; despite having the test heavily stacked in its favour.



My suggestion, for balance changes would be to nerf the AP shot's 500% damage modifier to 250%, halve the +bonus recoil (controlling hurricane recoil, with every 8th being a saber recoil jerk is just brutal on your mouse hand) and compensate by giving the BPP more base damage per shot. I'm no mathematician, but you guys should keep its current DPS versus armour the same and boost its DPS vesus everything else.

Headshots with the hurricane make a mockery of anything, headshots with the BPP tickle... and if you happen to miss the AP round....


TL:DR: The weapon would be really worth using if it wasn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon.

Truth be told Stardusk I fail to see how else they can buff it's effectiveness... it's still going to be great on characters with marksman and hunter / devastator mode, and its going to be a vanguard SMG.... but the hurricane does everything the BPP does and isn't "all your eggs in one basket".

I think the weapon is good versus armour, however, your declaration that the tempest is better is untrue.

[aaronisbla]

Guess its true, you should be careful what you wish for. You will run the chance of being disappointed when you get what you asked for lol

[upinya slayin]

Annomander wrote...

Ok, played gold glacier collectors. Wave 2 scion test using hurricane / BPP.

Scion scion sustained 0 prior damage to engaging it, was unpossessed.

Played at 60 FPS, recorded at 30 FPS using fraps.

For the BPP IX:
heat sink
extended magazine
AP ammo III
SMG rail amp II
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage


For the hurricane:
heat sink,
magazine
AP ammo II
targetting VI III
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage



Judging by the frame by frame analysis of the recording, it took me 271 frames to kill a scion with no sac burst, and 0 headshots using the BPP; ergo, @30 frames per second, it took slightly over 9 seconds to kill a scion using only bodyshots. no reload required.

Using the hurricane, it took 295 frames (almost 10% longer; nearly 10 seconds) to kill the scion with 20% less damage, and 10% less ammo power damage, and less armour penetration (65% instead of 75%), with one reload cancel; no headshots and no sac bursting.

The higher base damage of the hurricane means it scales MUCH better with equipment than the Punisher does, and even without having to reload, the gun does not outdo the hurricane.

The numbers are also VERY misleading, as I could have headshotted the scion, in which case I would inevitably fail a few headshots, resulting in body shots. This "RNG" element thanks to bullet spread would work in favour of the hurricane, as it's damage isn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon. Miss your headshot with the AP round on the punisher and the damage plummets, miss your headshot with the hurricane and its only a small drop.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that the hurricane destroys everything, the BPP is "comparable" against armour; but not better; despite having the test heavily stacked in its favour.



My suggestion, for balance changes would be to nerf the AP shot's 500% damage modifier to 250%, halve the +bonus recoil (controlling hurricane recoil, with every 8th being a saber recoil jerk is just brutal on your mouse hand) and compensate by giving the BPP more base damage per shot. I'm no mathematician, but you guys should keep its current DPS versus armour the same and boost its DPS vesus everything else.

Headshots with the hurricane make a mockery of anything, headshots with the BPP tickle... and if you happen to miss the AP round....


TL:DR: The weapon would be really worth using if it wasn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon.

nice analysis. But i don't know wht eveyrone compares eveyr SMG to the huricane when we all know the hurricne is one of the most unbalanced and OP weapons in the game. It hits like a harrier with more ammo and the ability to use stability mod and thermal clip plus it weighs nothing. I'd sya compare it to the CSMg and the GPSMH and Horent. it should be better then the 2 rares i mentioned (which it is) and comparable with teh UR (CSMG) if anything i'd say the BPP means teh CSMG needs a buff IMO

[peddroelm]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

So that bullet is 5x against everything, and 12.5x against armor?  If I'm understanding that right.  And it can score headshots, so Boss headshots would be at least a 17.5x bonus (without passive HS bonus).

 

Correct .. Also old news ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 06 mars 2013 - 09:46 .

[Stardusk]

Annomander wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Ok, played gold glacier collectors. Wave 2 scion test using hurricane / BPP.

Scion scion sustained 0 prior damage to engaging it, was unpossessed.

Played at 60 FPS, recorded at 30 FPS using fraps.

For the BPP IX:
heat sink
extended magazine
AP ammo III
SMG rail amp II
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage


For the hurricane:
heat sink,
magazine
AP ammo II
targetting VI III
SMG amp gear V
on a geth trooper specced for weapon damage



Judging by the frame by frame analysis of the recording, it took me 271 frames to kill a scion with no sac burst, and 0 headshots using the BPP; ergo, @30 frames per second, it took slightly over 9 seconds to kill a scion using only bodyshots. no reload required.

Using the hurricane, it took 295 frames (almost 10% longer; nearly 10 seconds) to kill the scion with 20% less damage, and 10% less ammo power damage, and less armour penetration (65% instead of 75%), with one reload cancel; no headshots and no sac bursting.

The higher base damage of the hurricane means it scales MUCH better with equipment than the Punisher does, and even without having to reload, the gun does not outdo the hurricane.

The numbers are also VERY misleading, as I could have headshotted the scion, in which case I would inevitably fail a few headshots, resulting in body shots. This "RNG" element thanks to bullet spread would work in favour of the hurricane, as it's damage isn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon. Miss your headshot with the AP round on the punisher and the damage plummets, miss your headshot with the hurricane and its only a small drop.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that the hurricane destroys everything, the BPP is "comparable" against armour; but not better; despite having the test heavily stacked in its favour.



My suggestion, for balance changes would be to nerf the AP shot's 500% damage modifier to 250%, halve the +bonus recoil (controlling hurricane recoil, with every 8th being a saber recoil jerk is just brutal on your mouse hand) and compensate by giving the BPP more base damage per shot. I'm no mathematician, but you guys should keep its current DPS versus armour the same and boost its DPS vesus everything else.

Headshots with the hurricane make a mockery of anything, headshots with the BPP tickle... and if you happen to miss the AP round....


TL:DR: The weapon would be really worth using if it wasn't an "all your eggs in one basket" type weapon.

Truth be told Stardusk I fail to see how else they can buff it's effectiveness... it's still going to be great on characters with marksman and hunter / devastator mode, and its going to be a vanguard SMG.... but the hurricane does everything the BPP does and isn't "all your eggs in one basket".

I think the weapon is good versus armour, however, your declaration that the tempest is better is untrue.

It's not even good on Vanguards, try it. I tried it on a Drell, Batarian and Kroguard, you need ROF bonuses to take advantage of the AP shot, otherwise it is too slow. It's basically a T.Soldier/Geth/Destroyer weapon.

[Sulaco_7]

It would be nice if one of you PC guys could do one of those tests that spits out a huge wall of numbers just to see if its actual damage matches its theoretical damage. It would be much appreciated!

[Flambrose]

^^^^ CSMG is better than BPP.

I said it.

Modifié par Flambrose, 06 mars 2013 - 09:41 .

[stromguard555]

The Tempest is one of the best multi-purpose weapons in the game.