180 réponses à ce sujet

[peddroelm]

Comparing armor piercing capable weapons vs Scion, Ravager or atlas is a bad idea .. They suffer from double/triple hit bugs which will make results inconstant ....

Safest bet would be maybe pretorian ? Should test it first to see if no funny business...

[BridgeBurner]

upinya slayin wrote...
nice analysis. But i don't know wht eveyrone compares eveyr SMG to the huricane when we all know the hurricne is one of the most unbalanced and OP weapons in the game.

Trust me, you haven't seen overpowered until you've seen a GI using EM+Heat sink and AP IV shooting a hurricane X...

And hey, it's noy my fault that bioware think high recoil is a balancing factor for a weapon....

upinya slayin wrote...
 It hits like a harrier with more ammo and the ability to use stability mod and thermal clip

Stability mod? Mouse control is my stability mod...

peddroelmz wrote...

Comparing armor piercing capable
weapons vs Scion, Ravager or atlas is a bad idea .. They suffer from
double/triple hit bugs which will make results inconstant ....

Safest bet would be maybe pretorian ? Should test it first to see if no funny business...

I only targetted the belly of the scion; and did not shoot any bullets at the sac or head...

Modifié par Annomander, 06 mars 2013 - 09:47 .

[Stardusk]

Well. it was a nice run...goodbye BPP, I used to love you but the time has come to move on.

[Stardusk]

Annomander wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...
nice analysis. But i don't know wht eveyrone compares eveyr SMG to the huricane when we all know the hurricne is one of the most unbalanced and OP weapons in the game.

Trust me, you haven't seen overpowered until you've seen a GI using EM+Heat sink and AP IV shooting a hurricane X...

And hey, it's noy my fault that bioware think high recoil is a balancing factor for a weapon....

upinya slayin wrote...
 It hits like a harrier with more ammo and the ability to use stability mod and thermal clip

Stability mod? Mouse control is my stability mod...

Why did you complain about the BPP's recoil then?

[Flambrose]

peddroelmz wrote...

Comparing armor piercing capable weapons vs Scion, Ravager or atlas is a bad idea .. They suffer from double/triple hit bugs which will make results inconstant ....

Safest bet would be maybe pretorian ? Should test it first to see if no funny business...

Scion too, huh? I was noticing earlier when headshotting a Scion with PPR that it would break its hump from the right angle, and it would go down extremely fast.

Modifié par Flambrose, 06 mars 2013 - 09:48 .

[upinya slayin]

[quote]Annomander wrote...

[quote]upinya slayin wrote...
nice analysis. But i don't know wht eveyrone compares eveyr SMG to the huricane when we all know the hurricne is one of the most unbalanced and OP weapons in the game.[/quote]


Trust me, you haven't seen overpowered until you've seen a GI using EM+Heat sink and AP IV shooting a hurricane X...

And hey, it's noy my fault that bioware think high recoil is a balancing factor for a weapon....[/quote]

Lol i've done taht layout before (i use stabilit mod for armor and have a hurricane 6 but even when i was doing speed runs with my hurricane 4 on platinum it still wipes eveyrhitng out. its my wepaon of shoice for sure on teh GI.


[quote]upinya slayin wrote...
 It hits like a harrier with more ammo and the ability to use stability mod and thermal clip
[/quote]

Stability mod? Mouse control is my stability mod...
[/quote]

Lol if only it was that easy to counter with a controller
PC players have a huge advantage with sniping and high recoil wepaons IMO becuase of the controls and becuase of teh no aim assist

[BridgeBurner]

Stardusk wrote...

Annomander wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...
nice analysis. But i don't know wht eveyrone compares eveyr SMG to the huricane when we all know the hurricne is one of the most unbalanced and OP weapons in the game.

Trust me, you haven't seen overpowered until you've seen a GI using EM+Heat sink and AP IV shooting a hurricane X...

And hey, it's noy my fault that bioware think high recoil is a balancing factor for a weapon....

upinya slayin wrote...
 It hits like a harrier with more ammo and the ability to use stability mod and thermal clip

Stability mod? Mouse control is my stability mod...

Why did you complain about the BPP's recoil then?

Well, controlling recoil which is a flat number is easy, it takes a lot more effort to have to control 7 hurricane shot's worth of recoil followed by a saber "jerk" upwards, then 7 more. With practice, it was pretty easy, however not everyone has my mouse control... and some of BSN don't even play with mouse + keyboard...

Mixing 2 types of recoil, with different values takes a bit of getting used to, but on the plus side I can now count my BPP shots in my head... Plus, it makes the BPP much shorter range a weapon than the hurricane.

[tatski]

I have my BPP at 1 and I thought its terrible for a UR. I still have faith that it would become the badass weapon everyone is excited about but after skimming through this thread it looks like I was right afterall.. If the AP multiplier is a huge factor for the its dps it should be atleast accurate or stable enough to consistently connect with most of its bullets at a certain distance...

[january42]

On top of the x5 damage multiplier for the AP round, that bullet also gets a x2.5 damage multiplier to armor resistances, which is multiplicative on the final damage of the bullet.

Ah, that's right.  Assume x is the passive bonus. Basicly, the sum of linear bonuses(barrel, passive skils, etc They are all linear I think)

Hurricane does
armor:  (128.1 x - 50 )* 8  = 1024.8x - 400
ap vs armor:  (128.1x - 5 ) * 8 = 1024.8x-40

Punisher does
armor:  (47.75x - 50)*8  + 47.75*x*5*2.5 - 50= 382x-400 +596.875x -50 = 978.875x - 450
ap vs armor: (47.75x - 5)*8  + 47.75*x*5*2.5 - 5=978.875x - 45

That doesn't actually change anything, hurricane still does more damage vs armor. And that is two thing in the punisher favor that I'm not sure about  (1) that a regular round is fired along side the AP round and the armor penalty kicks in AFTER the 2.5 armor multiplier.

Even after that, no matter what x is, the hurricane will do better.   1024.8 > 978.75 & 400 < 450.

Flambrose didn't include the armor deduction, which is why he got different numbers I think.

I wonder if something is not working correctly. If you want to keep the gun wth the same form, what they should do is buff the armor multiplier.   For no ap mod the BPP does 20% more than the hurricane vs armor when the armor multiplier is 3.45.  If you include a piercing barrel, then it does 20% more than the hurricane vs armor when the multiplier is 3.54    So  a 3.5 multiplier sounds like it would work.

I'm not sure if a gun that is 20% better than the hurricane vs armor and vastly worse vs everything else is useful, but that is a diffent problem.  As is the CSMG.

I would give the other regular bullest some modifier vs shields/barriers, which at least makes some sense from a gun design perspective. 1.5 or something maybe?

Modifié par january42, 06 mars 2013 - 10:44 .

[Tybo]

Flambrose wrote...

Taking my data from: https://docs.google....tput=html&gid=8

Here's how I go about estimating the armor DPS of the BPP..

Every 8 shots, it fires one AP round (assuming 7 normal shots + 1 AP shot). I'm assuming Cyonan's sheet is correct in taking into account the AP round's 5x modifier.

Against armor, that shot will have a 2.5x modifier. Because DPS is a multiplicative function, we can create a proportional coefficient for the armor damage to the DPS.

The damage per 8 bullets is: 7*47.75 + 47.75*(5) = 334.25 + 238.75 = 573
The damage per 8 bullets to armor is: 7*47.75 + 47.75*(5)*(2.5) = 334.25 + 596.875 = 931.125

We divide the armor damage volley's value by the normal damage volley's value (say that 5 times fast), and we get 1.625

BPPX (non-armor)
Burst DPS: 716.25
Sustained DPS: 520.91
RC Sustained DPS: 593.17

BPPX (to armor)
Burst DPS: 1,163.90
Sustained DPS: 846.48
RC Sustained DPS: 963.90

Hurricane X
Burst DPS: 1281.00
Sustained DPS: 732.00
RC Sustained DPS: 905.30

According to my method and Cyonan's numbers, this leaves the BPP with a 6% increase over Hurricane's reload cancelled DPS. This is without factoring in armor deductions.

I'd like to see what that recording says about the issue, myself. Even if BPP had a 20% DPS advantage over Hurricane, it loses completely to Hurricane against everything else, and is less accurate. I just don't see the point.

I'd also like to point out that, for the Hurricane, Burst DPS is much more important than Sustained DPS, since with both clip mods it can kill pretty much any boss or a spawn of mooks in one clip.  So even against bosses, the BPP is likely only winning in DPS on paper numbers.

Although the BPP's larger clip may allow it to take an extended barrel instead of the extended mag and still one clip bosses.  With AP IV, this means that the BPP will do more DPS if your total additive weapon bonuses are less than .97.  Math:

1163*(.25+1+x)+1163*.5=1280*(1+x)+1280*.5

x=.97

Modifié par tyhw, 06 mars 2013 - 10:36 .

[Flambrose]

At the rate this topic is going, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Hurricane nerfed

[january42]

Flambrose wrote...

At the rate this topic is going, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Hurricane nerfed

I suppose making everthing suck is a form of balance.

Modifié par january42, 06 mars 2013 - 10:47 .

[Krazy_Kirby]

icecoldkilla78 wrote...

when i first used the BPP i wasnt too impressed but i havent used the tempest in ages so i cant compare them. i would hope that an UR weapon at III or IV would outclass an uncommon at X tho

The mantis X can do more than the valiant III

[BridgeBurner]

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

icecoldkilla78 wrote...

when i first used the BPP i wasnt too impressed but i havent used the tempest in ages so i cant compare them. i would hope that an UR weapon at III or IV would outclass an uncommon at X tho

The mantis X can do more than the valiant III

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

[Krazy_Kirby]

joker_jack wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

Kalas321 wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

4 URs, 3 are garbage.

Well that is confusing because the venom is maybe not great but it's good and the spitfire is great. The lancer however is another of those stupid overheat weapons. Give me ammo anyday over those types.(yes i play plat and no I don't have ammo problems)

No. no its not

the lancer is the one worthy of being in the ur category

having "infinite" ammo doesn't make up for its low damage.
Also spitfire+jugg =win, even more so once they buff it's damage.

your trolling efforts fail to amuse. lancer in many reguards out performs the harrier. math for the other 3 ur gives us a look at how toilet worthy they are.

You have to wait longer for the lancer to get ammo than for the harrier (didn't even mention that gun) That wait means less time shooting.

[BridgeBurner]

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

joker_jack wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

Kalas321 wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

4 URs, 3 are garbage.

Well that is confusing because the venom is maybe not great but it's good and the spitfire is great. The lancer however is another of those stupid overheat weapons. Give me ammo anyday over those types.(yes i play plat and no I don't have ammo problems)

No. no its not

the lancer is the one worthy of being in the ur category

having "infinite" ammo doesn't make up for its low damage.
Also spitfire+jugg =win, even more so once they buff it's damage.

your trolling efforts fail to amuse. lancer in many reguards out performs the harrier. math for the other 3 ur gives us a look at how toilet worthy they are.

You have to wait longer for the lancer to get ammo than for the harrier (didn't even mention that gun) That wait means less time shooting.

The lancer is a light caster AR... the whole point is you fire it in spurts inbetween powers and combos, just like you would the CSMG. Never having to reload works pretty well, especially when you're a caster.

[Krazy_Kirby]

[quote]upinya slayin wrote...

[quote]Annomander wrote...

[quote]upinya slayin wrote...
nice analysis. But i don't know wht eveyrone compares eveyr SMG to the huricane when we all know the hurricne is one of the most unbalanced and OP weapons in the game.[/quote]


Trust me, you haven't seen overpowered until you've seen a GI using EM+Heat sink and AP IV shooting a hurricane X...

And hey, it's noy my fault that bioware think high recoil is a balancing factor for a weapon....[/quote]

Lol i've done taht layout before (i use stabilit mod for armor and have a hurricane 6 but even when i was doing speed runs with my hurricane 4 on platinum it still wipes eveyrhitng out. its my wepaon of shoice for sure on teh GI.


[quote]upinya slayin wrote...
 It hits like a harrier with more ammo and the ability to use stability mod and thermal clip
[/quote]

Stability mod? Mouse control is my stability mod...
[/quote]

Lol if only it was that easy to counter with a controller
PC players have a huge advantage with sniping and high recoil wepaons IMO becuase of the controls and becuase of teh no aim assist

[/quote]

The aim assist part yes but I can use a controller perfectly well for the recoil it isn't hard at all.

[Krazy_Kirby]

Annomander wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

joker_jack wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

Kalas321 wrote...

Krazy_Kirby wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

4 URs, 3 are garbage.

Well that is confusing because the venom is maybe not great but it's good and the spitfire is great. The lancer however is another of those stupid overheat weapons. Give me ammo anyday over those types.(yes i play plat and no I don't have ammo problems)

No. no its not

the lancer is the one worthy of being in the ur category

having "infinite" ammo doesn't make up for its low damage.
Also spitfire+jugg =win, even more so once they buff it's damage.

your trolling efforts fail to amuse. lancer in many reguards out performs the harrier. math for the other 3 ur gives us a look at how toilet worthy they are.

You have to wait longer for the lancer to get ammo than for the harrier (didn't even mention that gun) That wait means less time shooting.

The lancer is a light caster AR... the whole point is you fire it in spurts inbetween powers and combos, just like you would the CSMG. Never having to reload works pretty well, especially when you're a caster.

If your a caster take a smg or pistol, gives you faster power recharge and the 30%power mod.

[MetalDeggial]

I have it at X and it does a crapton of damage vs armor when the AP bullet lands and is also very efficient at taking out minions.

However, that's when you use it with a character that has both RoF and accuracy bonuses. I prefer it to the Hurricane on my Turian Soldier because it just feels good. If you don't have that though, you are better served taking a Hurricane, and if you have neither, then yeah, the Tempest is a good replacement on Marksman characters and the like.

I find the Tempest comparison to be fairly unfair tho, due the AP bullet mechanic shredding armor like nothing. But sure, buff it so it can be even better!

[Mr McKillAlot]

agreed the bpp needs some seriose help asap i hate when they try and keep the complainers happy and they absolutly destroy things that are so good ahhh such a shame the bpp has so much potential

[BridgeBurner]

Mr McKillAlot wrote...

agreed the bpp needs some seriose help asap i hate when they try and keep the complainers happy and they absolutly destroy things that are so good ahhh such a shame the bpp has so much potential

Here's why the BPP won't get the buff you are after.

The BPP is incredible on certain classes, it just won't perform well on anything without accuracy bonuses that's not a vanguard due to the spread killing off the high damage AP shot.

[himegoto]

Annomander wrote...

Mr McKillAlot wrote...

agreed the bpp needs some seriose help asap i hate when they try and keep the complainers happy and they absolutly destroy things that are so good ahhh such a shame the bpp has so much potential

Here's why the BPP won't get the buff you are after.

The BPP is incredible on certain classes, it just won't perform well on anything without accuracy bonuses that's not a vanguard due to the spread killing off the high damage AP shot.

That was the first thing I did, with any new SMGs.
BPP X on my tsol or qsol.

That vid is only showcasing you the best parts at the best possible enemy engagments at the best possible distance. (close - mid range against enemies with big heads, like pretorians, atlas.)
It is good on the tsol or qsol with marksman, not amazing. Marksman is also wonky by itself locking you out of other powers unlike cloak.

This gun needs a stability and accuracy boost to make it slightly usable on other classes and not have it as a watered down hurricane.

At the end of the day, my hurricane V is still much better on marksman classes than the BPP X. I'm sure Feneckus can compile an even more amazing clip using a hurricane on the tsol. The parts you dont see running for ammos.
Ammo reservation is the only thing good about this gun so far because of heat sink. But when you look at it another way, it's trading DPS with more shots and more time spent in the open doing shots.

[Stardusk]

Annomander wrote...

Mr McKillAlot wrote...

agreed the bpp needs some seriose help asap i hate when they try and keep the complainers happy and they absolutly destroy things that are so good ahhh such a shame the bpp has so much potential

Here's why the BPP won't get the buff you are after.

The BPP is incredible on certain classes, it just won't perform well on anything without accuracy bonuses that's not a vanguard due to the spread killing off the high damage AP shot.

This is inaccurate, the BPP is, I repeat, NOT good on Vanguards. You need ROF bonuses to make it work well, otherwise it takes a century to kill things, no Vanguard has ROF bonuses.

[Feneckus]

Stardusk wrote...

This is inaccurate, the BPP is, I repeat, NOT good on Vanguards. You need ROF bonuses to make it work well, otherwise it takes a century to kill things, no Vanguard has ROF bonuses.

When multiple people tell you you're wrong, that usually means there's a good chance you actually are.

[xSNPx ZoDiaC]

Feneckus wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

This is inaccurate, the BPP is, I repeat, NOT good on Vanguards. You need ROF bonuses to make it work well, otherwise it takes a century to kill things, no Vanguard has ROF bonuses.

When multiple people tell you you're wrong, that usually means there's a good chance you actually are.

That's fallacious reasoning.