347 réponses à ce sujet

[PwrdOff]

I never meant to say that the game itself is just militaristic propaganda, only that Shepard serves as a useful focal point for that kind of message within the game's own universe.  Just look at how being made into a Spectre made Shepard into a celebrity with the implication that this was symbolic of humanity's rise as a species.  You get the sense that in the Mass Effect universe, there's a real glitz and glamour associated with military service that you just don't really see in the modern world.

 

I get that this is a video game, and since the primary objective in most games is to solve problems by killing people, it would be quite hypocritical to push any kind of anti-war message.  Mass Effect does do a much better job than most of making peaceful dialogue a viable alternative without making it seem like a boring slog

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"Aren't meant to touch?" What is this, 2007?

 

Countless examples exist since ME2 & 3 where use/study of Reaper-tech results in benefits that outweighed the costs (if any costs):

 
(1) mass-relays: (a.) possibly saves humanity from overpopulation/extinction, as per Thane; (b.) still used long after revealed as "trap" by Reapers because of efficiency, perhaps more frequently in the war with them than at any point before it, which signifies that this "trap" of theirs helped us achieve our goals and ultimately ends in failure for them; (2) Keepers: aid and abet the Reapers until the Protheans rewrite them and turn them into benign and very helpful custodians of the Citadel (thank god they didn't have the Destroy/Refuse mentality and kill them for mere association with the enemy); (3) EDI: built from remains of Sovereign; (4) Thanix cannon: ditto EDI; (5) Reaper-IFF: worst case -- possible death of crew -- heavily outweighed by benefit of use: ability to jump through Omega-4 relay to stop Collectors... let's make this point clear: Reaper tech not used = Collectors not stopped; (6) Object Rho: warns against imminent Reaper invasion, spurning small task force to create The Project to stop it (loss of Project staff a negligible vs successful delay of Reapers' progress). (7) ME3 Geth: fight the Reapers through the length of the conflict; (8) Collector Base: added to Crucible regardless ME2 decision, but to save it benefits the player more than to destroy it (also note the War Assets terminal's play on words with Reaper Heart (destroy) vs. Reaper Brain (preserve)); (9) The Citadel: like 'relays, use only increases during war with Reapers (housing refugees, among other things), also employed by the Crucible to stop the Reapers.
 
Come ME3, there are side-quests, fetch-quests, and even MP objectives dedicated to recovering Reaper tech for your allies.

 

There's nothing tricky about studying Reaper tech safely, you just have to do it in a controlled environment and shield yourself from the signals as seen in Dr. Bryson's lab in Leviathan DLC. And what do you lose if things go wrong -- a group of researchers? Given how endlessly people insist that no cost is too great to stop the Reapers, it's funny to see how much fuss is made over the danger of losing relatively small and insignificant groups of people towards that end.

[Vigilant111]

Yes! Maybe we should fire Liara and hire you instead as our reaper expert!

 

None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with integrating reaper technology with the organic body... oh yes! the Lazarus Project! creating a body which is capable of numerous critical mission failures and unable to indoctrinate others!

[DoomsdayDevice]

Yeah, obviously the games makes a point about problems with studying Reaper tech because there are no problems with it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Yes! Maybe we should fire Liara and hire you instead as our reaper expert!

 

None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with integrating reaper technology with the organic body... oh yes! the Lazarus Project! creating a body which is capable of numerous critical mission failures and unable to indoctrinate others!

 

WTF? Your post was speaking to the dangers of Reaper-tech broadly, not merely limited to integrating it with organic bodies, and anyone can go back a page and see that in what you wrote. Don't move the goalposts ala David.

 

But if you want an example of that, I can give you one: Randall Ezno.

 

When did Liara become a Reaper expert, anyway?

[Vigilant111]

WTF? Your post was speaking to the dangers of Reaper-tech broadly, not merely limited to integrating it with organic bodies, and anyone can go back a page and see that in what you wrote. Don't move the goalposts ala David.

 

But if you want an example of that, I can give you one: Randall Ezno.

 

When did Liara become a Reaper expert, anyway?

 

Broadly? How many other varieties of reaper-tech are out there? There are the kinds which directly affecting organics and sometimes synthetics, and the rest do not. What really bothered people were the former, in which most things go wrong due to ignorance and inexperience, and everyone is well aware of the benefits of reaper technology, yes, everyone. Come on, why would anyone give you such an easy picking like that? Yes, I know my post is in on page 15, maybe you should read it again to get the context right

 

 

What's with Randall? he is not indoctrinated, he's got implants just like many others, your point?

 

Meh, just bit of an oversight, guessed my temper got the better of me and I uttered the name of the most notorious of scientists on the ship

[Ieldra]

So much this. It's really not that complicated.
 
Again, it's not that overcoming boundaries is bad, it's that we have to do it on our own terms. Build our own science. Reaper tech is designed in a way that brainwashes anyone who studies it. But we have to build our own future.
 
Using the Reaper tech seems the quick and easy path, but it is designed to doom us. Just look at the Geth. Set on achieving their own future, but as soon as they join the Reapers they suddenly abandon their previous ideals and admire the beauty of the 'growth' that is the Reaper code. Quick and easy path to enlightenment and individuality, "ascendance". All you need to do to achieve peace is allow the upload of the Reaper code. It's devious. Not peace on our terms, but peace on the Reapers' terms. Yeah, I'm sure that will end well.

You are aware, perhaps, that the belief that the "quick and easy" path is intrinsically bad in some way is delusional? Why reinvent the wheel if you can trade for it or steal it? Technology exchange, peacefully and violently both, has been with human civilization since it exists. Also, if there is some weapon used against me, *especially* if it's designed as a trap, I can only profit from knowing how it works. This idea that we're better off ignorant is - yet again - completely delusional. That this story sends a delusional thematic message is the main reason why I hate it so much, and that it sells it as morally superior is the last straw. Look at the real world and you can see it for yourself.

[Vigilant111]

You are aware, perhaps, that the belief that the "quick and easy" path is intrinsically bad in some way is delusional? Why reinvent the wheel if you can trade for it or steal it? Technology exchange, peacefully and violently both, has been with human civilization since it exists. Also, if there is some weapon used against me, *especially* if it's designed as a trap, I can only profit from knowing how it works. This idea that we're better off ignorant is - yet again - completely delusional. That this story sends a delusional thematic message is the main reason why I hate it so much, and that it sells it as morally superior is the last straw. Look at the real world and you can see it for yourself.

 

Well, I wouldn't say we are all better off being ignorant, because human beings are always curious about things. An ingrained prudence is the product of past experience, like the Trojan horse

 

Stealing and trading for technologies also prevents a society from being innovative

[Obadiah]

...

Stealing and trading for technologies also prevents a society from being innovative

 

That doesn't sound true. Our whole technological advancement is built on using and innovating from technology that came before, whether we gain what came be before by personal research, trading, or stealing.

[DoomsdayDevice]

You are aware, perhaps, that the belief that the "quick and easy" path is intrinsically bad in some way is delusional? Why reinvent the wheel if you can trade for it or steal it? Technology exchange, peacefully and violently both, has been with human civilization since it exists. Also, if there is some weapon used against me, *especially* if it's designed as a trap, I can only profit from knowing how it works. This idea that we're better off ignorant is - yet again - completely delusional. That this story sends a delusional thematic message is the main reason why I hate it so much, and that it sells it as morally superior is the last straw. Look at the real world and you can see it for yourself.

 

I'm not saying the quick and easy path is intrinsically bad. I'm saying Reaper tech is designed to be that way to lure us into the trap.

 

As for technology exchange, well yeah of course, but that would go for any other tech than Reaper tech, because again, it's designed to brainwash you.

 

The idea is not that we're better off ignorant, the idea is that we have to figure it out for ourselves. Not because that is somehow morally better, but for practical reasons. Surely the first civilization to ever pioneer and master mass effect technology didn't reverse engineer it.

 

The fact that Reaper tech indoctrinates is simply a practical obstacle. All we need to know is that within the contect of the MEU, studying it is not going to work.

 

The problem is that you take this simple theme and somehow attach more meaning to it than is intended. You take it to mean that overcoming boundaries in general is bad. You take it to mean that in general people are better off ignorant. That is not the point.

 

It's not a moral or philosophical message at all. IMO what it means to convey is a practical message how to solve the big problem in the MEU. Cycles of galactic extinction have been repeating themselves for a billion years because people keep making the same mistakes, they keep accepting the gifts of the old machines and so develop along the paths they desire. It is up to Shepard to break that pattern, otherwise we'll never be free from the Reapers.

 

All that the games do is to beat you over the head with examples of why it never worked. Yet you keep interpreting it as some kind of moral lesson about life in general, and at the same time you feel like that practical limitation shouldn't be there. But is not intended as such.

 

It's like disliking Star Wars because in your personal opinion the Jedi should be able to use the dark side for good. But that's simply not the way the creator(s) of the universe intended it to work. Things like that are always black and white in popular culture, and therefore absolutely not applicable to the real world.

[AlanC9]

Studying Reaper tech indoctrinates, yep. Except when it doesn't.

[Barquiel]

Like the case with the Salarian Dalatrass potentially holding back military resources, I think this another example of the Council not having absolute executive power over their respective species' governments. To some extent it appears they still have to answer to local governments and can even be stonewalled or kept in the dark by the them. The Salarian Councilor was unable to overrule the Dalatrass and the Asari Councilor (or Tevos at least) is only informed of the beacon shortly before Shepard. Also in gaining Turian support for the war effort the key figure Shepard needs is Palaven's Primarch rather than Councilor Sparatas or his replacement.

 

Indeed. Even Udina says he would have to answer to the alliance parliament if the reapers hadn't destroyed it.

[Obadiah]

@DoomsdayDevice

 

Yeah, but see where we did use "Reaper tech" here:

http://forum.bioware...iew/?p=16242224

[Vigilant111]

That doesn't sound true. Our whole technological advancement is built on using and innovating from technology that came before, whether we gain what came be before by personal research, trading, or stealing.

 

You are speaking of being adaptive, not innovative

 

Instead of developing own means of space travel, people are now heavily relying on the mass relays, and when the relays are destroyed or damaged, nobody knows what to do with it cos the technology did not originate from them

[Obadiah]

You are speaking of being adaptive, not innovative

 

Instead of developing own means of space travel, people are now heavily relying on the mass relays, and when the relays are destroyed or damaged, nobody knows what to do with it cos the technology did not originate from them

 

I was actually speaking of our current modern society that trades and steals technology, and does still innovate, even if the technology did not originate with the person, business, or country that innovates. I don't think trading or stealing technology and innovation are mutually exclusive at all.

 

Perhaps you're describing a situation where people become dependent on another's (the Reaper's) technology without ever understanding it, or attempting to understand it? I realize that idea is put forward early in Mass Effect with respect to the Council's use of the Citadel, but I would be very surprised if that was the actual state of the the Council's relationship with the Citadel tech, or the Relays. Not even TIM is trying to use Reaper tech without understanding it.

[AlanC9]

 
Instead of developing own means of space travel, people are now heavily relying on the mass relays, and when the relays are destroyed or damaged, nobody knows what to do with it cos the technology did not originate from them

Except that the Protheans tried to understand relays, of course. And succeeded.

[Vigilant111]

Except that the Protheans tried to understand relays, of course. And succeeded.

 

This was only a strategic move where the protheans were trying to undermine reaper plans, they did not invent anything new, but rather replicated something which they understood, to an extent

[AlanC9]

That's preposterous. The protheans were working on the conduit long before the Reaper attack. They weren't doing that to undermine Reaper plans since they didn't know the Reapers' plans yet.

 

Anyway, what's your point? First we've got " when the relays are destroyed or damaged, nobody knows what to do with it cos the technology did not originate from them," and then we've got "replicated something which they understood, to an extent." So working with alien technology is bad unless you succeed in figuring it out?

 

OK, then. What are you saying people should do with alien tech?

[Vigilant111]

That's preposterous. The protheans were working on the conduit long before the Reaper attack. They weren't doing that to undermine Reaper plans since they didn't know the Reapers' plans yet.

 

Anyway, what's your point? First we've got " when the relays are destroyed or damaged, nobody knows what to do with it cos the technology did not originate from them," and then we've got "replicated something which they understood, to an extent." So working with alien technology is bad unless you succeed in figuring it out?

 

OK, then. What are you saying people should do with alien tech?

 

After confirming the protheans indeed had an interest in how the relay works, I will yield

 

Well, If you do not understand it but use it nonetheless, wouldn't you expose yourself to risks? The reapers wanted people to use the relays credulously, and in the end, most civilizations could not escape their ultimate fate because they were too dependent on reaper technology, they were complacent about the nature of the relays, thinking that they are prothean creations and gifts for posterity 

 

Umm, study but don't rel(a)y on it? Like I said before in my previous posts, the problem isn't we shouldn't know something, but we shouldn't "touch" something which we don't know much, as I am not against studies on alien technology

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 ^ yet sometimes (actually, often times) "touching" is a prerequisite to studying/understanding, as was the case with most of the examples I listed.

[AlanC9]

I'd say the lesson is to investigate alien tech more, not less. Treating the relays and the Citadel as black boxes that shouldn't be pried into didn't make anyone safer.

[CosmicGnosis]

The Crucible also contradicts this idea of "building something original without outside intervention". The builders literally looked at blueprints. Though I guess you could refuse to use it, but I'm sure that BioWare considers that a bad ending. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm not saying the quick and easy path is intrinsically bad. I'm saying Reaper tech is designed to be that way to lure us into the trap.

 

As for technology exchange, well yeah of course, but that would go for any other tech than Reaper tech, because again, it's designed to brainwash you.

 

The idea is not that we're better off ignorant, the idea is that we have to figure it out for ourselves. Not because that is somehow morally better, but for practical reasons. Surely the first civilization to ever pioneer and master mass effect technology didn't reverse engineer it.

 

The fact that Reaper tech indoctrinates is simply a practical obstacle. All we need to know is that within the contect of the MEU, studying it is not going to work.

 

The problem is that you take this simple theme and somehow attach more meaning to it than is intended. You take it to mean that overcoming boundaries in general is bad. You take it to mean that in general people are better off ignorant. That is not the point.

 

It's not a moral or philosophical message at all. IMO what it means to convey is a practical message how to solve the big problem in the MEU. Cycles of galactic extinction have been repeating themselves for a billion years because people keep making the same mistakes, they keep accepting the gifts of the old machines and so develop along the paths they desire. It is up to Shepard to break that pattern, otherwise we'll never be free from the Reapers.

 

All that the games do is to beat you over the head with examples of why it never worked. Yet you keep interpreting it as some kind of moral lesson about life in general, and at the same time you feel like that practical limitation shouldn't be there. But is not intended as such.

 

It's like disliking Star Wars because in your personal opinion the Jedi should be able to use the dark side for good. But that's simply not the way the creator(s) of the universe intended it to work. Things like that are always black and white in popular culture, and therefore absolutely not applicable to the real world.

 

See this is the theme of the story with which I have a serious issue: technology indoctrinates. The story sets forth this premise that studying highly advanced technology "for which we're not ready" supposedly is wrong and evil. Therefore, the technology indoctrinates people and turns them into monsters.

 

And we can never have this technology and be free of the reapers. We have to accept the reapers to have it. If we reject the reapers, we not only reject this technology, but we reject our own highly advanced technology as well since the Crucible destroyed a lot of that. We have to figure out how to repair the Mass Relays and make them work again, because we can't learn that from reaper tech because reaper tech is evil and indoctrinates because we are not ready. Only one person in the entire galaxy is ready: Shepard. The reapers have a very difficult time indoctrinating Vorcha as well. I don't know if that's saying anything.

 

But this is about pushing forward the Idealistic Hero over the Pragmatic Hero. So Shepard has to choose to make everyone live with the Reapers and integrate everything with their technology in order for them to be able to move beyond it (synthesis); or maintain the status quo and not advance - sorry you cannot go beyond the reapers in Control otherwise there is no more Control; or reject the Reapers, destroy the tech, and a good portion of your own tech. 

 

This is why I hate the ending of this story so much. And the main plot preaches an idealism. I hate the way indoctrination was handled. It evolved from ME1 to what it was in ME3. By all accounts, just being exposed to reaper tech should have indoctrinated Dr. Chakwas since she was constantly in very close proximity to EDI's Blue Box which was made from parts of Sovereign.

[DoomsdayDevice]

See this is the theme of the story with which I have a serious issue: technology indoctrinates. The story sets forth this premise that studying highly advanced technology "for which we're not ready" supposedly is wrong and evil. Therefore, the technology indoctrinates people and turns them into monsters.

 

Of course there's a theme about uplifting cultures before they are ready. But that's a different issue. "Advancement before culture is ready, disastrous.", and this is well illustrated by the Salarians uplifting the Krogan, the 'giving nukes to cavemen' example. And it's undeniably true. For example, cultural studies show it's highly problematic, if not almost impossible to institute democracy in certain societies. If the cultural norms and values that support democracy (e.g. all people should have equal rights) are not sufficiently present in a given culture, the concept can never really succeed.

 

IMO the theme is absolutely not that it's wrong to study highly advanced technology. There's nothing wrong with that. The message is that it's dangerous to use tech that we do not understand, and it's true. The only problem in the MEU is that we cannot really come to understand Reaper tech, because it is designed to indoctrinate those who study it. It's just a practical obstacle for the sake of the story, and it helps explain why the cycles continue... civilizations keep making the mistakes of the previous cycles.

 

But it does not mean that studying alien tech is wrong in and of itself. That's just a simplified and wrong extrapolation IMHO.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The message is that it's dangerous to use tech that we do not understand, and it's true.

 
But when you shun certain types of things on account of them being dangerous, you're just perpetrating a vicious cycle:
 
It's dangerous because we don't understand it. We don't understand it because it's dangerous.
 

The only problem in the MEU is that we cannot really come to understand Reaper tech, because it is designed to indoctrinate those who study it.

 
Indoctrination can be prevented. It's there for all to see in Leviathan DLC. Bryson's lab has Reaper-tech and Leviathan orbs. Indoctrination is prevented by keeping them shielded. There's also that Cerberus base where Reaper artifacts are being studied. Again, the Reaper-tech is shielded.
 
Shepard also recovers those tech samples from Cerberus and gives them to Hackett. What do you think the Alliance is doing with them?
 
"Dangerous" and "indomitable" are two different things. Reaper-tech is not the latter.
 

But it does not mean that studying alien tech is wrong in and of itself. That's just a simplified and wrong extrapolation IMHO.

Yet that's all a theme is: the simplified (and possibly wrong) interpretations from the audience.

 

*I* can come up with plenty of examples where the study of Reaper-tech was beneficial, where the good outweighed the cost and was worthwhile overall, but the negative examples tend to be more prominent and in-your-face. As such, lots of people detest those themes also detest those aspects of the story -or- people who support those ideas will see those parts of the story as re-affirmation of what they believe to be true. To avoid this, keeping things more grey, the writers can balance out the bad examples by making the good ones more prominent.

 

They didn't, though. Hence the sentiments.