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The one-year-after replay: a mission-by-mission review


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#151
wright1978

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Ieldra2 wrote...


[u]Citadel: Shore Leave (mission part)
So after I get out of the sushi place, I make my way along the Citadel's skylanes - did I say I like the locations - armed only with a suppressor pistol and low on health. This sequence is interesting, but I have no idea how a non-power-oriented Shepard can get through this with just the pistol. [b]Also, Liara's voice sounds off when I meet her.


I found the Liara stuff really off at that point in the citadel mission. I've only just realised that she is filling in because my LI is Miranda and if your LI is on the squad they appear instead which may be the reason. If it is that frustrates me.

#152
ruggly

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Obadiah wrote...

At the Interlude: Reaper Base Strategic Meeting, pretty much all of my Shepards tell Legion that the Reaper code are "just upgrades", because the Geth are sentient, and to me that's value enough to be alive. Of course, by Admiral Raan's response, the game makes it seem like Shep told Legion it wasn't alive... sigh.... role-playing immersion bubble popped.


I just finished Rannoch earlier today, and that part when Legion wants to upload the code:

"We would be alive, and we could help you"

YOU ALREADY ARE ALIVE, GAH!

#153
hot_heart

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What no mention of how stupid everyone appears on Mahavid in Leviathan? Not realising something is up with every single person in the facility or able to question it. :P

#154
Ieldra

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hot_heart wrote...
What no mention of how stupid everyone appears on Mahavid in Leviathan? Not realising something is up with every single person in the facility or able to question it. :P

Ah....I guess I've gotten so used to it that I forgot. I'll add that in the next update. That I did forget may be an indication that it's not a critical flaw.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 mars 2013 - 10:24 .


#155
Ieldra

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Added to the second review post:

*Interlude: Citadel Visit #6
*Priority: Horizon
*N7: Communication Hub

Also, while it doesn't belong in a review since it's purely a matter of taste, I can't end this part without mentioning how much I hate Miranda's death scene. Not because she dies, but because of the "all I ever wanted was to be normal" vibe that comes across. Among other things, I value Miranda for being exceptional and doing great things with her gifts, and as I see it, she learned to appreciate herself in that way in ME2 if you romanced her. If she threw that away, she wouldn't be the person this Shepard had come to love. For that reason, I also hate her LotSB dossier and I'm hair-triggered against the "normal life" theme coming up in Miranda's dialogue in the Citadel DLC. Thankfully, I can play the latter so that she comes across as taking a well-deserved day off from being a "trouble-shooting space diva" rather than not wanting to be that anymore, so I can appreciate her otherwise very beautiful scenes (I'll get to that in the next part of my mission-by-mission review). Fortunately, the vibe of the death scene is absent if she survives, but I still resent it's present at all. I wish I could scrub the knowledge of its existence from my brain.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mars 2013 - 10:09 .


#156
Obadiah

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People have secret desires. Sometimes they put up a facade just so they can deal with them. The Miranda I remember from ME2 always seemed to resent the "gifts" she was given because it undermined her accomplishments. Shepard may have convinced her to appreciate what she had, but she probably never let go of wanting to be "normal" and have had a "normal" life, without the expectations that came with the "fancy genetics."

#157
WarGriffin

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The problem with Miranda is she was clearly set up to be TIM's right hand -Leng would be the Mailed Fist and Oleg the ace up the sleave- who is pretty promiment in the Cerberus command chain.

However the decesion to make Cerberus completely Cobra command and evil, They went with Miranda wasn't that important in the structure, "She says the only thing she was ever in charge of was Project Lazurus"

Essential the moment Cerberus was slanted to go from Morally questionable to outright evil

Miranda couldn't possibly be 2nd in command and be as sympathetic as she is -Even though with Jack and various Cerberus projects she doesn't act all that surprised and seems to know more then she's letting on"
With Jacob it was easy, he'd just signed on.

So what we get is a Miranda who hates all her former Cerberus staff, apparently was just Naive and manipulated by TIM into working for him cause she has a weakness to domineering men and is more wrapped up in her sister, when a few months ago was content to stay in the shadows least Orianna be dragged into it.

#158
Ieldra

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Added to the second review post:

*Citadel: Shore Leave (R&R part)
*Priority: Cerberus HQ

The Citadel:Shore leave part is more of a personal account of how it affected this Shepard's story, since I cannot account for all the conditional content. Not all characters were alive for this playthrough, and of course I didn't see any romance content but Miranda's. I won't review parts I haven't personally seen while playing, since that can feel drastically different.

@WarGriffin:
It was always clear that Miranda can't be part of ME3's "space n*zi" Cerberus and of course I wouldn't have wanted that. What I would've wanted is something like this dialogue for Cronos Station I wrote after the script was leaked.

Now forward to Priority: Earth...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 mars 2013 - 01:48 .


#159
Wulfram

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One criticism I'd make of both Horizon and Cerberus HQ is that they seem to rely way too much on video logs for exposition, which I find very clunky. I actually prefer the audio logs, because at least you can more or less get on with things as they play, while the videos bring everything to a halt while you watch them - and both of these missions seem like they should be played with a sense of pace.

#160
Ieldra

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Wulfram wrote...
One criticism I'd make of both Horizon and Cerberus HQ is that they seem to rely way too much on video logs for exposition, which I find very clunky. I actually prefer the audio logs, because at least you can more or less get on with things as they play, while the videos bring everything to a halt while you watch them - and both of these missions seem like they should be played with a sense of pace.

Hmm...did the logs really bother you? I can see why the three-part logs on Cronos Station might be considered too long but the ones at Sanctuary were good. Also, at this point I wouldn't want to miss exposition. I still watch them all in every playthrough because if I don't, the Shepard of that playthrough doesn't get to know what's in them.

#161
CronoDragoon

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Small nitpick: in your original post, you title the geth consensus review as Rannoch: Admiral Koris.

#162
Ieldra

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CronoDragoon wrote...
Small nitpick: in your original post, you title the geth consensus review as Rannoch: Admiral Koris.

Thanks. Corrected.

#163
Ieldra

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Sorry for waiting so long until finishing this, but I needed more distance to write about the final mission. So here is it, then, my mission review of "Priority Earth" and "The Return", with a little more personal touch this time.

Before I speak of the mission, I thought I'd mention how impressive ME3 looks, particularly the characters. The difference is really striking after coming from DA2. Also, yet again the gameplay/cutscene integration is nothing less than exemplary. ME3 knows how to tell a story through its medium. If only it hadn't sacrificed so much player freedom for it. 
 
Priority: Earth
[visuals o, sound +, combat gameplay ++, gameplay/story integration ++, story o, dialogue o, roleplaying o]
The final sequence starts with Hackett's visit and speech. I've always liked Hackett, and his speech is decent. Then the relay jump and the "fleet ready" messages. The quarian fleet looks particularly impressive, but I miss seeing the geth fleet which should be almost the largest. The following space battle...well, a large number of ships alone don't make for a great space battle scene. Spaceships strewn about space like so much litter, the guns sounding and looking like (naval) battle ships of WWI, and it would've been nice had anyone remembered how movement and physics work in space when designing that scene. The gunnery chief on the Citadel in ME2 would've given the designers of this battle a good dressing-down. I found Omega's space battle more convincing.

Before we land to take out the Hades cannon, there is the goodbye with Joker, which is a very good moment. Not too personal but touching nonetheless, exactly as I would imagine it with this Shepard. The following run to the cannon site features...more Reaper minions than I've ever seen at the same time. Very appropriate. But then....the Hades Cannon is clearly a Reaper, and It appears unlikely that you'd be able to destroy it with a good old Cain. The first of a few items of tactical nonsense in this mission. After I take it out, there is the first of three survival type battles in this mission while I wait for the shuttle, which is rather difficult at Hardcore and up. It frustrated me a few times in the past but I don't mind. Things are as they should be. The meeting with Anderson, then the "Hammer forces landing" cutscene that reminds me - not accidentally I guess - of footage from D-Day, only with shuttles instead of landing boats. 

At the FOB the music reminds me how much the tone of several scenes in ME3 makes it appear as if Shepard is inexorably marching to his doom. This is not necessarily bad, but in this case the already known ending casts its shadow backwards, and it comes across as very depressing. I speak with my team, and yet again it is depressing that I can't speak with the most important NPC in this Shepard's story - Miranda - in person after the token farewell at Sanctuary. I've talked about the sidelining of the ME2 team in other posts, and I won't repeat the whole stuff here, but even after a dozen replays, it hasn't lost its sting. Grunt's scene is very touching, though, and the goodbye scenes with the ME3 team are very good. Garrus' and Liara's are particulary well done. They've never been my favorite characters, but they've become more a lot more real in ME3. EDI's scene makes me wonder how the writers originally intended Synthesis to come across, given that her lines appear to invalidate its necessity, and Shepard's possible responses to her question are both nonsense. I like Javik's scene, too, but it is unfortunately indicative of how much of a mystical vibe the ME trilogy has acquired since the end of ME2. More of that when I get to the ending, and again this isn't necessarily bad, but I feel that that starting with the Collector Base in ME2, the universe has drifted into a direction where it isn't a universe into which I want to project myself any more.

Then off to the final fighting sequence of this mission - and the trilogy. I have to ask: who the hell wrote Shepard here? First that "hooyah" I can't opt out of, then the cheesiest speech of the trilogy. Why couldn't he have said something striking and to the point, like Bakara did on Tuchanka. Shepard's speeches were always bad, but in the past, at least I had a "no speeches" option to avoid them. Not so this time. Need I say "character-derailing autodialogue is undesirable" for about the 1000the time? It bears repeating. Also, who the hell designed the tactical side of this mission? There is a Destroyer parked at the beam. A few missions before this one, it took a whole fleet to take one out, and here we are trying to do the same with field artillery. I really like the "stab deep into enemy territory" aspect of this mission, which comes across nicely, but that inconsistency is staggering. Throwing magic words like "Thanix missile" around is insufficient to make it believable if there is no grounding in lore. All that is not exactly ruining the mission, but I think a little more thought should've gone into the tactical side of the final mission of the trilogy. The attack cutscene is nice, though, and the fighting sequence gives a good "is there no end to them" impression, even though it gets a little tedious in the Nth replay. 

As I reach the missile battery, may I mention how useless it is to shoot at Reapers with handheld firearms as they do in the cutscene? The following three battles - securing and defending the battery, holding out against the counterattack and defending it a second time - are the hardest battles in the game, which is as it should be, and playing on higher difficulties nicely brings home what you're facing here. Some say the "horde mode" gets boring, but I like how this battle forces me to use everything at my disposal - every piece of cover, every power, every weapon, and select my companions carefully when playing on Insanity. It works very well as an alternative to a standard video game boss battle with its usual gameplay contrivances (DA2 Legacy's Corypheus battle being one of the most annoying ones I played recently). Otherwise, there's not much to say about this. I get on with the fighting, which is very intense even after many replays, until the Reaper is taken out, I'm treated to a scene with the Crucible approaching and the beam run starts. Oh, and while I'm at it, this must be the only time in video game history that a telephone cell provided adequate cover against a starship's main beam attack. As an aside: why do those telephone cells still exist in the London of 2186?

The beam run....well, I rather like it as a story element, though I have to ask if it is believable that a Reaper like Harbinger doesn't have an AOE attack to kill everything in the area. Also, the scene the EC added is...sorry to say it, I know many people like it - complete nonsense. Yes, how the team members made it back was important to show, but it would've been better to leave Shepard's POV to show them getting up and away after Shepard has gone up the beam, and it would've been better to leave Harbinger out of the scene in the first place. Otherwise, as Shepard is taken out and wakes up heavily wounded, this is a clear indication the next part of the mission will be resolved without fighting. I like that a great deal, in spite of problems with the implementation (see below). As Shepard steps into the beam, there's another scene of the Crucible approaching and Shepard wakes up on the Citadel.

The Return:
[visuals +, sound +, combat gameplay n/a, gameplay/story integration n/a, story -, dialogue +(TIM)/-(everything else), roleplaying o(TIM)/--]
The imagery of the landing area... for the last time, I'm wondering what inspired it. If the writers wanted to leave some ambiguity to the Reapers, as indicated at various points in the story, things like this - and the often-bemoaned "abomination aesthetic" of the Reaper minions - didn't help. It is as if there had been two conflicting visions of the Reapers among the writers, and they tried to unify them but in the process coherence got lot.

I'm making my way to the control chamber, where I meet the Illusive Man. This important encounter might have been an opportunity to express this Shepard's philosophy in some way, but the dialogue leaves me only the most generic two choices. This only isn't as disappointing as it could be because I'm resigned to the fact at this point. IMO this conversation would've needed at least two more options for every hub, but then it appears to me that roleplaying ranked rather low in the priority of features for Mass Effect 3. Anyway, at least I have a sequence of options that work for me, unlike in the first encounter with this man on Mars. I challenge him to control the Reapers, and when he can't, I tell him not to let them control him, and he kills himself. I regret how it has come to this. Knowing what I know now, I may decry his methods but I can't but respect the way he held out against the Reaper influence in his mind for decades. Since this Shepard believes that at least some ends justify extreme means, and that there is no more important end than the survival of civilization, it strikes me that had things only be a little different, this Shepard might have ended up like TIM. I still believe he had a point with everything he said and that pushing him as an antagonist with no choice about it was undesirable, but in spite of the lack of options, this is a really good encounter, and in spite of what he's done, the Illusive Man comes across as an antagonist I can respect.

Unfortunately, what follows is not as good. First the talk with Anderson. I would've liked a choice about how much of a father figure he is to Shepard, and his incredibly cheesy lines - I don't know how anyone can bear to write such stuff. It sounds like out of a 1950s movie. Then Shepard's collapse at the control panel, at which point the story reinforces the mystical vibe it has acquired since ME2. Between the collapse and the imagery of what follows, the message is clear: Shepard can't end the Reaper threat on his own terms, he needs the help of a "higher power", and so we're going to meet this universe's god-analogue.

While this is bad enough on its own, what makes it worse is that this god-analogue has been our opponent, known or not, since the start of ME1, and now we're forced to use its exposition to find our solution against the threat it itself poses. I don't know how this was intended to come across, but no, dear writers, at this point the Catalyst cannot be made to come across as a neutral force any more. The line "The Cruclble changed me" exists clearly to deal with this problem, but it is suspect because it's said by the Catalyst itself. The organic/synthetic scenario it describes is ok for me. I can easily suspend my disbelief for it even though it doesn't give me nearly enough data. However, the story which came before repeatedly makes the opposite point, i.e. that we are not doomed to enmity because of what we are, even between organics and synthetics, and I can't believe that Shepard doesn't get a chance to mention the irony that the Catayst itself is a synthetic who rebelled against its creators. Nor can I believe that I can't mention that I made peace on Rannoch, not even in the Extended Cut version. I can't imagine that any Shepard who made pace on Rannoch wouldn't mention this here.

The choices the Catalyst explains to me, on their own, are all interesting enough to consider even if you don't believe in the scenario. Or rather, they would be if they came from a neutral force, but as it is, if you really roleplay, they're all suspect because of who presents them. Enough has been said of this in countless posts, so let's just say that while the scenario and the final choice options pose no logical contradictions, the narrative dissonance is so staggering that you question if you're in the same story any more, and even more importantly, this creates the feeling that Shepard goes to his doom for nothing, that it ultimately wasn't worth it. I believe this is the main reason the ending still comes across as depressing to many players.
Of course you, as the player, are aware at this point that all those endings are meant to be good endings. You know that you're supposed to trust the Catalyst because otherwise you'd have no information at all about how to proceed. You know that because you know how stories work, and because you believe this story won't betray you in that, but the way the information is given to you is so much more hindrance than help that this only becomes clear in the meta-perspective. In the case of Synthesis, I'm also confronted with an extra dose of the abovementioned mysticism, with "Shepard's essence" powering this solution and with an implementation that defies all rationalization in terms of in-world logic.

So I make my way through this conversation - at least since the EC there is *some* meaningful exposition - all the while having to split my mind between the in-world and meta perspectives in order to encompass the information I've given. This Shepard finds the outcome of Synthesis a very desirable one, but at the same time I, the player, am aware that this ending doesn't fit the story I've just played through, even though it's clear it's meant to fit somehow, or it wouldn't exist. I must've played this sequence about 20-30 times, and it never ceased to be confusing. In the end, I decide to choose for the outcome and disregard all the narrative inconsistencies and thematic incompatibilities that come with the Catalyst encounter. This means that essentially, I have to treat the Catalyst encounter as a black box which mysteriously and inexplicably places information about the final choice and its possible outcomes in my mind.

That means this Shepard makes the jump, but I am unwilling to accept the mysticism in the exposition as pointing to anything real. I cannot accept the necessity that Shepard basically has to sacrifice his soul to power the Synthesis. There's just too much fantasy and above all too much religion in it, and Mass Effect has never been that kind of story. Above, I said I felt that the universe has shifted since the story started, acquiring a mystical vibe starting with the end of ME2. While I've always been able to rationalize my way around that, I feel that ME3's ending finally betrayed ME1's promise of a reasonably grounded science fiction story in a way I can't ignore, and I find I cannot go along with the change. Thus, the black box. At least the Extended Cut epilogue, while not free of the dissonances that plague the whole ending scenario, gives me nearly everything I could hope for. The imagery is regrettably drastic, with the "green eyes effect" dreadfully overdone, but I like the "joining with the other" theme expressed through it, and I recall how much of a relief it was when playing with the EC for the first time, to see the results of my choices, the fate of the characters and the retcon (don't tell me it isn't one) of the depressing dark age scenario of the original ending. The final image, in spite of everything, points to a future that triggers my imagination in a good way. 
 
Afterword:
So...what's left? What's left after almost five years of playing the story of several versions of Commander Shepard? All in all, it has been a great if bumpy ride. Even with the ending as it is, I wouldn't have wanted to miss it, and I don't regret having spent so many hours with it. There were many great moments, and I hope I haven't failed to mention those along with the equally great flaws. There were major and minor story arcs which were engrossing both in themselves as well as in the characters who brought them home to me as a player, and there were compelling characters all the way. There was also gameplay evolving noticeably throughout the trilogy, with ME3 featuring the best mix of what came before, and an equal evolution in visual art even though the style of some elements was not to my liking. 

However, when it comes to what I may have taken away from it, the most prominent point is this: don't get invested. While disappointments about how things go in a story are nothing new to me, such disappointments have a special sting if you've been active in shaping your own experience with it as a player. There's also one thing I would like to tell the writers: there is nothing wrong with strongly defined protagonists. There are games which use them to good effect, and it's easier on the writers for storytelling. However, if you start a story with reasonable freedom to express your character, and then the final chapter is full of lines put into my protagonist's mouth I would have avoided like the plague if I only had the choice, then this comes across as a betrayal. If a story starts out as a reasonably grounded science fiction story (in spite of things like the asari) and later veers off into mysticism, then this comes across as a betrayal to those who don't like the latter. If a character is introduced with controversial traits in a way that suggests I'm free to make up my mind about her, and I come to like her because of those traits, and the next chapter of the story implies they're all worthless, then this comes across as a betrayal. So, in spite of the many great moments, I feel betrayed by Mass Effect 3 on three promises made by its predecessors, and that's why I most likely won't return to this universe after ME3. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 septembre 2013 - 08:52 .

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#164
mupp3tz

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Oh god.. no. Why did you have to update this thread?! Now I'm tempted to go back and read your thoughts on all the missions haha

I just wanted to say that it's sad, but I also had the same take away. "Don't get invested." I mean saying that sounds so dramatic and cheesy.. though it's honestly how I will approach future titles from Bioware and other promising games. I have never been as into the characters and story as I was with Mass Effect and bought into all the promises and optimism.

I hyped it so hard to anyone I knew who played video games.. and, in the end, it was just ugh. I don't know if I felt betrayed like you said, but it certainly was upsetting. I'm over it, but I still can't help and wonder "what if" sometimes. For a good long time there, I honestly felt like "Hey, this is my story. I can shape it how I want." but, realistically, it's Bioware's game at the end of the day. And it caught me off guard when I lost sight of that.

Anyway, thanks for sharing while I now go peruse this thread.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 15 septembre 2013 - 09:33 .


#165
JasonShepard

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Hey, you finished it. Well done. :) After this much time, I wasn't sure that you were going to, but I appreciated reading your thoughts on the earlier missions, and welcome the chance to see your view of the finale (even if I already knew some of it).

I think I agree with just about every criticism you level at the ending. I like the space battle scene, but I wish more effort had been put into it. I am one of those that likes the Normandy evac scene, but I can't argue that it isn't a ridiculous premise. (Why am I the one that is left to justify why Harbinger isn't firing?!)

As for the investment... yeah. Me too. Finishing the first time left me feeling... empty. Not depressed, not angry, just: "Oh. It's over. Huh." I finally filled that hole with by carving a headcanon ending out of Control, and I can enjoy the rest of the ride, but the ending is still the worst of the three games. I don't dread it, it just completely fails to move me.

Lets round this off by seconding M U P P 3 T Z and saying 'Thanks for sharing.' It was a good read.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 15 septembre 2013 - 10:48 .


#166
ruggly

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Glad to see you managed your way through what looks like the last playthrough for you. It was a very interesting read, and I agree with a lot of your criticisms. There was a lot that they did right, and just so much that they did wrong in my opinion.

I managed to make it through ME3 three times, and I'm not sure I can play the trilogy again, or at least noy for a very long time. At this point, I'm over the endings (have been for a while, really), though I still enjoy talking about the universe. I'm also interested to see what they do for the next ME game, though I won't be buying until I read reviews.

#167
Ieldra

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Here's an additional observation:

I recently played a lot of DAO/DA2, and I find it remarkable how dramatically DA2 contrasts with ME3. In DA2, the combat gameplay and presentation of the world were shoddy at best, while the roleplaying was mostly really good and there were very few instances of groan-worthy writing, while in ME3 the presentation and the combat gameplay was perfect, but roleplaying ceased to exist at times and the writing, while very good here and there, was generally full of cheese and groan-worthy traditionalism.

It's also remarkable how both games feature protagonists which are more defined than for instance DAO's Warden, but DA2 gave me a reasonable level of freedom to express my character which ME3 failed to do.

@M U P P 3 T Z
*rubs hands* Good.....good. :lol:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2013 - 09:01 .


#168
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Yeah, it was cheesy. Shepard wasn't all there a lot of the time. It seems like writers will have a "pet" they'll throw at you, and no matter who it is they'll be disliked by a certain group. What got to me in a recent play through when I got the Citadel DLC was the dialogue in the original game.

I was doing my own "little" rewrite and one of my own strong points seems to be characters, and the dialogue seemed just asinine in most of the game. There were bright spots here and there, but I just couldn't get over how bad it was most of the time. I hate writing endings. I still have to come up with something stupid. It'll be a parody of something.

Contrast it with what I remember from DA:O and even DA:2. I loved playing the sarcastic Hawke every so often in DA2. And I'd just finished TW2 EE. Looking forward to DA:I. DA2's downfall was the overused caves and dungeons and gameplay, but the roleplay was good.

#169
wright1978

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Very interesting concluding post, a lot of which i completely agree with. Though reading about someone else's experience of the trainwreck ending is as close as i can come nowadays. The excellent work of modders means i've cut out that cancer & found a more fitting if limited singular end that leaves me in a place where re-playing is both possible & appealing.

Wholeheartedly agree that there's little worse than taking a largely player characterised protaganist & in the final chapter shoving boatloads of forced characterising dialogue etc.

I sadly equally walk away with the burnt fingers and the cynical part of my brain telling me not to get so invested.

#170
KaiserShep

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Ieldra2 wrote...
That means this Shepard makes the jump, but I am unwilling to accept the mysticism in the exposition as pointing to anything real. I cannot accept the necessity that Shepard basically has to sacrifice his soul to power the Synthesis. There's just too much fantasy and above all too much religion in it, and Mass Effect has never been that kind of story.


First, I just wanna say that your entire review is pretty spot on.

The quote here is precisely what drove me to the choose Destroy in the first place. I was instantly hostile to the religious overtones of what was being presented, aside from some other things I found unpalatable, and so I had to go with the one option that allowed me to dispense with it, without having the entire MEU die a fiery reaping.

#171
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Well, I'm finally awake enough to have read through your final installment. The "march toward doom" really fit. I felt it really depressing. The entire storyline was going through a downward spiral from the end of Rannoch toward the ending.

And regarding Liara and Miranda. I don't find it so bad that Liara took over Miranda's spot on the ship, as much as they made Miranda's role in the story so puny. Without either of these characters Shepard would not have existed in ME2. Did we really need a complete redesign of the Normandy SR2 for ME3? No. Not really. We didn't need the "War Room" okay and put that War Room thing in Mordin's old lab area. The Conference Room would have worked just fine. Miranda being ex-Cerberus? Well, the Alliance was having ex-Cerberus scientists working on a "Top Secret" weapons project, or were they under constant armed guard? So perhaps Miranda could have stayed aboard, and Liara could have moved into Jacob's old quarters and sealed off the entrance to the Conference room. They moved the Armory to the Shuttle Bay, and Jacob maintained the armory so move him down there in the interest of fairness so he doesn't go off cheating on femShep. But then there's Jack. Okay Jack's at Grissom. Fine. I've not played a Shepard who romanced Jack or Miranda. I've played Shepards who romanced Jacob and Thane, so cry me a river.

Anyway I'm getting side-tracked. There were a lot of places they could have made little improvements that would have had little impact on the story, but would have had big impact on the players.

I think a fundamental flaw in the story was the idea that reaper tech could indoctrinate. IMO that should have been left to the reapers themselves. It set an idea that technology = evil. It set my own Shepard at odds with the story line in many places. Yet it was this very technology that brought Shepard back to life. I gave the Collector Base to TIM because of what we might be able to learn from it. But technology is evil and his lust for power turned him from a morally gray character into a cardboard villain. And in my one year later play, I picked one and it turned out Tali had died on the SM. Interesting because Legion now isn't so cuddly and sweet either. We'd destroyed the Heretics -- we had a job to do. Geth aren't like us. We shouldn't apply our moral values to them. Legion says "The organics are unreliable. We could help you take back Earth. Let us upload the code." No interest in peace. Raan was gangsta. Again the message "Technology = evil".

The reapers... What they did to worlds, harvesting people, killing people outright, dumping them both living and dead into machines to turn them into a paste to make more reapers was horrifying. Then these new reapers did the same thing the next cycle. The hideous creatures they made out of the populations was overkill, but we have to have our zombies to shoot at, because how effective are our guns against the big ships? And if people started becoming indoctrinated by the reapers and picking up guns and shooting at their own non-indoctrinated armies, that would have been much more gritty and more depressing. The person you were friends with yesterday is now indoctrinated and shooting at you. Remember that conversation in the lounge? Except that never happens. They're monsters. Yet you hear Javik talk about "In my cycle they used our own children against us."

Then the disconnect at the end. It's really a disconnect. Shepard hates the reapers and wants them dead. Shepard wants the technology. Julia chooses destroy and turns off the XBox before the tube gets shot.



Ieldra2, we may disagree on the actions in places, but I think your review of the game is spot on. We play different types of characters on the sci-fi side of things, but it seems we have more in common on the Dragon Age side of the map. And for what it's worth, I have nothing against the idea of synthesis. It's the way it was handled in ME3. It was handled absolutely horribly when it should have been about technology instead of these stupid space magic and religious overtones. The ending of ME3 got way too much into fantasy and a leap of faith and sacrifice. Even Control. The only way to sell them was to taint "destroy the reapers" by making technology evil. That gets my back up. That's not what Mass Effect was supposed to be about to me.

#172
Ieldra

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I think people who read my Synthesis posts weren't necessarily aware that I've always been interpreting and writing about Synthesis in spite of and against the mystical and religious implications in the Catalyst scene, as well as against the suggestion that Reaper technology is evil which resulted in a dissonance when combined with the "join with the Other" theme in the Synthesis ending. I've always realized the story suggests all that, but since it's never made explicit, I did my best to interpret my way around all that. Why all that effort? Well, the alternative was to throw my hands up in disgust and leave ME behind, leaving the stories of my Shepards unfinished in my mind. I wasn't ready to do that after I spent so much time with them in ME1 and ME2. 

As for playing different kinds of characters in sci-fi than in fantasy, there is actually a common theme in the characters I like to play: I'm drawn towards the exotic, the weird, the alien, the Other, the things that push the boundaries of what's considered human, and I always play against those who would retreat from the unknown and let themselves be caged by the traditional boundaries of the human condition. In DA' that puts me on the side of the mages, and I think my philosophy is very apparent in the mage manifesto I've written for DA, in expressions like "It is not for us to cower in fear before the dream world as the templars would have us do". Rather accidentally, that also puts me on the side of freedom, which is a relief after ME.

For you said it yourself: Ever since ME2, Mass Effect has carried the theme "advancement is evil". This was carried by the Reapers and their indoctrination of course, but also by the only human group working for radical advancement, pushing the boundaries of what's considered human: Cerberus. You can see the position that put me in. In so many different words and images, ME told me my desires are evil. The abomination aesthetic, Cerberus' atrocities, Miranda's desire to be normal, and last but not least the religious implications of the ending and the original epilogue with its "back to nature" Garden Eden symbolism. Synthesis most definitely does not fit there, and I really can't blame those who thought the outcome would be bad before the EC. Since I rejected all those messages I could make it my ending nonetheless, but in the end it turned out Mass Effect is exactly the kind of traditionalist story which would see humanity caged by the traditional boundaries of the human condition. I've always seen that tendency, there were signs of that even in ME1, but I expected that in the end, the story would let me make up my mind about this. Instead, with ME3 it tried to force its philosophy on me.

So...that's why the autodialogue and Miranda's character development are so particularly galling to me, that's the deeper reason why after ME3, the MEU isn't my universe any more, and that's why my main Shepard would inevitably come to be associated with evil, regardless of how much tangible good may have resulted from his decisions. I hope DAI will not go the same way.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 septembre 2013 - 11:56 .


#173
cap and gown

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While I disagree on some points, I find many of your critiques spot-on. Most of all, however, I just want to thank you for your excellent review. Gave me some things to think about. Great work.

#174
CosmicGnosis

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I just finished another playthrough of Jade Empire after many years, and I found myself somewhat uncomfortable with the story's message. It seems to condemn anyone who wishes to move beyond their station because it will disrupt the natural order of things. The Way of the Open Palm is all about harmony with the natural order, and the Way of the Closed Fist is all about discord and chaos. Open Palm often involves helping everyone no matter what, and Closed Fist is supposed to be about standing up for yourself no matter what. The game has some issues with Closed Fist, however, and the ending throws it off a cliff. The Closed Fist ending is clearly evil and tyrannical; you really do become the villain. And it's unfortunate, because I think it taints the whole concept of the Closed Fist.

Maybe that wasn't really the intended message, but I suspect that Ieldra's head would still explode. :P

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 septembre 2013 - 06:07 .


#175
Iakus

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Ieldra2 wrote...

For you said it yourself: Ever since ME2, Mass Effect has carried the theme "advancement is evil". This was carried by the Reapers and their indoctrination of course, but also by the only human group working for radical advancement, pushing the boundaries of what's considered human: Cerberus. You can see the position that put me in. In so many different words and images, ME told me my desires are evil. The abomination aesthetic, Cerberus' atrocities, Miranda's desire to be normal, and last but not least the religious implications of the ending and the original epilogue with its "back to nature" Garden Eden symbolism. Synthesis most definitely does not fit there, and I really can't blame those who thought the outcome would be bad before the EC. Since I rejected all those messages I could make it my ending nonetheless, but in the end it turned out Mass Effect is exactly the kind of traditionalist story which would see humanity caged by the traditional boundaries of the human condition. I've always seen that tendency, there were signs of that even in ME1, but I expected that in the end, the story would let me make up my mind about this. Instead, with ME3 it tried to force its philosophy on me.


I think the theme was reckless advancement is ultimately destructive.  It was about the dangers of reach exceeding grasp.  Cerberus' methods were not inly unethical (which was bad enough) but they tended to charge blindly ahead without assessing risks.  The result inevitably led to  experiments with a high body count.

And then of course, in the third game we are given no choice but to blindly charge ahead with a Crucible device we know nothing about, have no idea what it does.  Heck the most brilliant minds in the galaxy can barely comprehend the blueprints.  And simply trust that somehow it will stop the Reapers.  This flies in the face of the previous games' message of understanding what you are getting into.