113 réponses à ce sujet

[etm125]

Cyonan wrote...

etm125 wrote...

there is a difference. BC has a cooldown. RM is nade based. No one complains about vanguards because on gold/plat you BC once into a group you have to wait for cooldown. You get mowed down. Penalized for bad gameplay.

This actually isn't the case of the Volus, Krogan, and Batarian Vanguards on at least Gold.

How so? As far as I know the only other shield/repair/whatever that is not cooldown based is the stimpack. I also believed that was OP when introduced and still do (at least on the TGI. Poor Havoc). Shield boost lets you get shields back but then you must seek shelter. KV and Batguard again, although exceptionally tanky, must generally BC and seek shelter or kill the enemy quickly. Stop the damage or pay the price.

The other caveat is the kroguard and batguard must also keep a light loadout to keep BC spammable. EDI has no such restriction. Want a claymore? With infiltrator damage bonus? Go for it! Javelin? F*** it! Why not?

[etm125]

squidney2k1 wrote...

etm125 wrote...

I don't want to offer a snarky rebuttal but RM is the problem. Without it shes just another high dmg infiltrator with a shotgun niche. Fine.

The problem is the basic game mechanic of:

You get hit, you should probably stop firing and seek cover. If you do not, you will die.
Sexbot has no such restriction. Krolord, vanguard etc etc must do something to get shields back. Seek cover, biotic charge, etc. do something quickly to stop the damage or you will pay the penalty.

EDI can just stand there and keep on firing away. There is no penalty to be paid for bad gameplay. You just...keep firing. The worst that can happen? A brief animation. Nothing can kill her. Only briefly slow her down.

When you play her you are no longer playing a cover based shooter. Just keep firing.

You fail to mention the other Infiltrators that can do the same thing: Stand in the line of fire and instantly heal/increase survivability.

I assume you mean the TGI with stimpack. It was also overpowered when introduced and still is. It's just not on the level of repair matrix. You could still get overwhelmed and downed. Granted, it's exceptionally difficult to go down, but still possible. RM, on the other hand, yeesh. Immediate shields back? Yep. Regen too? Yep. Speed? Uh huh. Protection v downs? Yep.

RM makes stimpacks seem.....cute.

[Cyonan]

etm125 wrote...

How so? As far as I know the only other shield/repair/whatever that is not cooldown based is the stimpack. I also believed that was OP when introduced and still do (at least on the TGI. Poor Havoc). Shield boost lets you get shields back but then you must seek shelter. KV and Batguard again, although exceptionally tanky, must generally BC and seek shelter or kill the enemy quickly. Stop the damage or pay the price.

The other caveat is the kroguard and batguard must also keep a light loadout to keep BC spammable. EDI has no such restriction. Want a claymore? With infiltrator damage bonus? Go for it! Javelin? F*** it! Why not?

Batarian and Krogan Vanguards have so much effective barriers they just don't care about taking fire. The Batarian actually becomes immune to damage while in a heavy melee with the right spec of Blade Armour.

Kroguard usually brings the Reegar, which is unmatched for damage output in this game and he really shouldn't be dying to anything but a sync kill.

The Volus' cooldown is just so incredibly short with Biotic Orbs that it's basically almost as spammable as Stim Packs are if you're running with something light, and it's not like we don't have very powerful lightweight weapons these days.

[upinya slayin]

squidney2k1 wrote...

The problem is that, like all Infiltrators, the balance of Tactical Cloak makes this class overpowered. Many Infiltrators play with Shotguns, which requires a playstyle that puts you in harms way, and finally we have a glass specifically geared towards that playstyle.

Repair Matrix is just another facet that increases survivability. There's no big difference between taking 2000 pts of damage, going down, then getting back up, compared with being able to tank the same 2000 pts of damage and not go down in the first place.

• Krogan Warlod has massive health and can regenerate, which doesn't consume anything, and could withstand that 2000 pts of damage and not go down at all. Overpowered?
• Vorcha have bloodlust which can heal a crazy amount of damage in a fraction of time, making it possible to survive the same 2000 pts of damage and not go down. Overpowered?
• Krogan & Turians can spec to higher shields & health, making them survive that same 2000 pts of damage. Overpowered?
• Juggernaut can survive an INSANE amount of damage and repair it's shields without the cost of any powers or consumables. Overpowered?
• Turian Soldier & Infiltrator can use stim packs, instantly repairing AND boosting their shields, shrugging off 2000 pts of damage. Overpowered?
• Vanguards can charge and get back to full barriers, even when near the point of death. Overpowered?

Certain classes that have Energy Drain--a free non-consumable ability--can instantly repair their shields, and gain damage reduction in the process, and not go down. Overpowered?
Volus characters can shield boost (everyone), restoring shields, getting an insane damage reduction, and not go down. Overpowered????????

The point is that Repair Matrix isn't a crutch, just like any other power or ability that increases survivability isn't a crutch. It's just another way of maximizing the amount of damage you can sustain without technically dying (being forced to get revived or use a consumable). The bottom line is that the same 2000 pts of damage that would kill the AIU. It's all about being able to take a certain amount of damage and NOT die, which is an ability shared by nearly 1/4 of the characters in the game.


What pisses people off is the illusion of a self-revive, being that the AIU player is "reckless," "crappy" for going down in the first place, and "using a crutch".....well then every Vanguard, Krogan, Krolord, Vorcha, Turians, Sally Engineer, Sally Infiltrator, Paladin, N7 Shadow, ]Volus, Fury, Asari Sentinel, Geth w/ Turret, Juggernaut, and other other classes with an ability to restore health/shields/barriers is also "using a crutch."

your missing the ponit of why its OP. its not only the fact it revives you when you go down, it also restores shields, Gives you a DR i believe, and a movement speed bonus. Also you just set it and it last for 20+ seconds.

the warlord can't take cover, can't dodge, and you need to activate rage mode by killing somehting with a melee
The vorcha only have 250 shields and liek 750 health. 1 burst on gold can down them. also you need to have 3 kills eevyr 15 seconds to keep bloodlust up.

Krogan and turians can't dodge. its a trade off. They lack mobility in place of shields. Edi has mobility, shields regen, DR, and an amazing dodge. also a fast and pwoerful heavy melee.

Juggernuat is instanley tanky, but he lacks the damage output of edi. he's balanced by his damage output limits. he also can't run, can't dodge, is slow as hell, and draws a ton of aggro.

Stim packs require an animaiton and you have to sue them before being downed liek an ops pack which doens't always work. RM has no animation and stays active for 20+ seconds and if you die it instantly revives you. you don't need to try and get it in before dying

Vanguards can get their shield back but their limited to their cooldown. edi isn't limited to her cooldowns by any means. keep RM active all the time which is easy and clack, shoot, RC, shoot and repeat

[Zeke0]

etm125 wrote...
When you play her you are no longer playing a cover based shooter. Just keep firing.

This gamed ceased being a cover based shooter since the advent of Retaliation.

[Ledgend1221]

Put it this way.

Name a character and their weaknesses.
Now do the same for the AIU.

[Bolo Xia]

its none of that stuff at all, she is just too sexy looking with her phantom flips and stuff.

just admit it already, she is down right sexy looking and you guys can stand it!!
her curve's are OP as hell.

dont worry tho, i still wont kick my quarian out of bed for the sex bot, i will take them both.

[dimeonwu]

i tried RM once I got the AIU yesterday. Its fun, and I can see how people think its OP.

Problem is, RM must be running before you go down. In many cases on GOld and higher, a volley of shots can break shieldgate and bring down the player, esp without fitness evo. With latency and all, many players have reported tthe "RM is active but I don't autorevive" issue

Yes, some foresight is helpful. But on GOld and higher, running around a corner and being surprised by 2 Geth Hunters - WITHOUT RM on - can be fatal

Once revived, RM is gone and enemies around me immediately attacked and staggered me, Primes stunlock cannon and I went down again within about 1 second. ANd that consumes 2 charges

RM doesn't last forever. It only lasts 20s - IF one chooses the duration evo. One has to ration usage carefully. I've seen AIUs pop RM and then collapse after it wears out, requiring us to run into heavy enemy fire to revive them

I was lucky in that match the other 3 players were using non-Grenade kits (so no one fighting for nades with me on Glacier). I recall having to pop thermal packs to keep my supply of RM up because I was being KO'ed so often (often trying to save the melee character)

I admit I am not a good player and I am glad At least now there's a kit that allows me to help out on an extremely punishing difficulty. I definitely do not think its a crutch. It can be extremely powerful if used in skilled hands, but as many on BSN are keen to point out, most of us need to"L2P nub"

Peace out bros and sistas

Modifié par dimeonwu, 02 mars 2013 - 10:07 .

[dimeonwu]

upinya slayin wrote...
[snip]

Stim packs require an animaiton and you have to sue them before being downed liek an ops pack which doens't always work. RM has no animation and stays active for 20+ seconds and if you die it instantly revives you. you don't need to try and get it in before dying

I agree with most of the things you said boss Upinya-san, except RM has to be active before dying to cause auto revive. I tested this extensively 

But yes, RM has no animation delay whereas Stimpack has a short animation delay which can be fatal

[IrishDeath420]

So Bioware gives us an awsome character for a Co-Op game and people complain about it being too powerful.

Here is a little helpful advice. If you don't like the character, don't use it.

[noeschi]

Simba501 wrote...

etm125 wrote...

I don't want to offer a snarky rebuttal but RM is the problem. Without it shes just another high dmg infiltrator with a shotgun niche. Fine.

The problem is the basic game mechanic of:

You get hit, you should probably stop firing and seek cover. If you do not, you will die.
Sexbot has no such restriction. Krolord, vanguard etc etc must do something to get shields back. Seek cover, biotic charge, etc. do something quickly to stop the damage or you will pay the penalty.

EDI can just stand there and keep on firing away. There is no penalty to be paid for bad gameplay. You just...keep firing. The worst that can happen? A brief animation. Nothing can kill her. Only briefly slow her down.

When you play her you are no longer playing a cover based shooter. Just keep firing.

Biotic charge = targeting an enemy, pressing a button
RM = pressing a button

Not much of a difference if you're surrounded by enemies.  RM suffers the same biotic charge problems off host.

thats right. I died around 10 times yesterday, because RM simply doesn't work. i activate it, green screen, i go down and nothing happens. it's glitchy as hell off host

[etm125]

Cyonan wrote...

etm125 wrote...

How so? As far as I know the only other shield/repair/whatever that is not cooldown based is the stimpack. I also believed that was OP when introduced and still do (at least on the TGI. Poor Havoc). Shield boost lets you get shields back but then you must seek shelter. KV and Batguard again, although exceptionally tanky, must generally BC and seek shelter or kill the enemy quickly. Stop the damage or pay the price.

The other caveat is the kroguard and batguard must also keep a light loadout to keep BC spammable. EDI has no such restriction. Want a claymore? With infiltrator damage bonus? Go for it! Javelin? F*** it! Why not?

Batarian and Krogan Vanguards have so much effective barriers they just don't care about taking fire. The Batarian actually becomes immune to damage while in a heavy melee with the right spec of Blade Armour.

Kroguard usually brings the Reegar, which is unmatched for damage output in this game and he really shouldn't be dying to anything but a sync kill.

The Volus' cooldown is just so incredibly short with Biotic Orbs that it's basically almost as spammable as Stim Packs are if you're running with something light, and it's not like we don't have very powerful lightweight weapons these days.

You know, in days of arguing over this power, this is the first actual anti-nerf analysis that has any weight to it. Thank you, Cyonan.

My gut reaction is "Yeah but she gets all the damage of a shotgun infiltrator too" but we're discussing RM, specifically. The counter argument is yes, these other kits can take a pounding and get away with it but its generally thanks to some thinking and clever use of game mechanics to get there. There is also still the potential for death -- and you only get 6 "Whoops!" per game. There is no risk with EDI at all. There are durable kits down here......and then there's EDI.....up here. With 50-60, potentially unlimited, "Whoops!".

[Bolo Xia]

@Upinya

it just doesnt make sense, you guys want "newbies" to make more credits per game and trying to help them out.

but then turn around and want to nerf newb friendly characters.

there isnt an increase in credits per game yet, but this character is already here, so why not let them use it.

btw nobody is forcing, good player's to use this character, i only used it twice so far just to check it out. it was fun, but i prefer other characters.

seems to me the whole argument comes down to "only bad's will use it or over use it."
why does it even matter when most "bad's" are newbies that you guys wanted to help in the 1st place?

add:
so ya anyone that signed that "increase the credits for bronze and silver" thread, really should re-evaluate their stance on nerfing.

Modifié par Bolo Xia, 01 mars 2013 - 07:02 .

[BridgeBurner]

Another one of these threads?

Seriously, if bioware gave a f*ck about balance, they'd buff lots of guns and nerf lots of classes... and infiltrators in general would not be where they are right now.

Modifié par Annomander, 01 mars 2013 - 06:58 .

[TheGRITTY]

That's because there is no problem. It's a co-op game. Anything that reduces the number of times I have to revive someone else is good for the team as a whole.

QQ less about the AUI, plz

[Cyonan]

etm125 wrote...

You know, in days of arguing over this power, this is the first actual anti-nerf analysis that has any weight to it. Thank you, Cyonan.

My gut reaction is "Yeah but she gets all the damage of a shotgun infiltrator too" but we're discussing RM, specifically. The counter argument is yes, these other kits can take a pounding and get away with it but its generally thanks to some thinking and clever use of game mechanics to get there. There is also still the potential for death -- and you only get 6 "Whoops!" per game. There is no risk with EDI at all. There are durable kits down here......and then there's EDI.....up here. With 50-60, potentially unlimited, "Whoops!".

In terms of RM alone, I could see the 40% DR + Shield Regen + Medi-Gel being considered too much. In a game last night on Gold I didn't even need to use the medi-gel part since I didn't die, and I have 0 fitness. I do think that the combo of RM + TC is overpowered, though as I've been saying I don't think it's a big deal unless she's overused.

Annomander wrote...

Another one of these threads?

Seriously, if bioware gave a f*ck about balance, they'd buff lots of guns and nerf lots of classes... and infiltrators in general would not be where they are right now.

If BioWare cares about balance they'll do as one guy on the internet tells them they should do.

Seems legit.

[upinya slayin]

dimeonwu wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...
[snip]

Stim packs require an animaiton and you have to sue them before being downed liek an ops pack which doens't always work. RM has no animation and stays active for 20+ seconds and if you die it instantly revives you. you don't need to try and get it in before dying

I agree with most of the things you said boss Upinya-san, except RM has to be active before dying to cause auto revive. I tested this extensively 

But yes, RM has no animation delay whereas Stimpack has a short animation delay which can be fatal

With shck trooper gear i get 4 at a time. which is enough for 80 seconds of it. plus i can hit up grenade boxes for more of them. i ahve it active 100% of the time pretty much w/o suing thermal clips

and yes it'll help players move up to higher difficulties and i'm ok with it. It is OP but i don't want to see it nerfed.

[BridgeBurner]

Cyonan wrote...

etm125 wrote...

You know, in days of arguing over this power, this is the first actual anti-nerf analysis that has any weight to it. Thank you, Cyonan.

My gut reaction is "Yeah but she gets all the damage of a shotgun infiltrator too" but we're discussing RM, specifically. The counter argument is yes, these other kits can take a pounding and get away with it but its generally thanks to some thinking and clever use of game mechanics to get there. There is also still the potential for death -- and you only get 6 "Whoops!" per game. There is no risk with EDI at all. There are durable kits down here......and then there's EDI.....up here. With 50-60, potentially unlimited, "Whoops!".

In terms of RM alone, I could see the 40% DR + Shield Regen + Medi-Gel being considered too much. In a game last night on Gold I didn't even need to use the medi-gel part since I didn't die, and I have 0 fitness. I do think that the combo of RM + TC is overpowered, though as I've been saying I don't think it's a big deal unless she's overused.

Annomander wrote...

Another one of these threads?

Seriously, if bioware gave a f*ck about balance, they'd buff lots of guns and nerf lots of classes... and infiltrators in general would not be where they are right now.

If BioWare cares about balance they'll do as one guy on the internet tells them they should do.

Seems legit.

Balance means balance. Balance isn't subjective, it's objective when a GI has the same surviviability and much better damage than a GTS, simply because of lolcloak.

[Xeraphas]

Repair Matrix is not OP because it is not absolute. Since I have played several games where I went down despite having it ON and not reviving instantly. This means it either has only a chance to revive or it is bugged.

[upinya slayin]

IrishDeath420 wrote...

So Bioware gives us an awsome character for a Co-Op game and people complain about it being too powerful.

Here is a little helpful advice. If you don't like the character, don't use it.

its cause getting outscored hurts peoples e-peen

[upinya slayin]

Bolo Xia wrote...

@Upinya

it just doesnt make sense, you guys want "newbies" to make more credits per game and trying to help them out.

but then turn around and want to nerf newb friendly characters.

there isnt an increase in credits per game yet, but this character is already here, so why not let them use it.

btw nobody is forcing, good player's to use this character, i only used it twice so far just to check it out. it was fun, but i prefer other characters.

seems to me the whole argument comes down to "only bad's will use it or over use it."
why does it even matter when most "bad's" are newbies that you guys wanted to help in the 1st place?

add:
so ya anyone that signed that "increase the credits for bronze and silver" thread, really should re-evaluate their stance on nerfing.

It is OP but i don't want it nerfed. I'm just debunking the statement that its not OP. the character in itself is more broken then the TGI IMO, but i don't want it nerfed. If that 1 random we had in a 20 min gold PUg (well me and 1 friend) dind't have the sexbot it would have basically been a solo with me and my friend. instead he kept up pace and was only a few thousand behind me and my friend at the end while dying 3-4 times every wave. the 4th random didn't die much and was a good etammate but didn't kill anything either. i'm glad that random had that character cause otherwise he would have been dead all teh time and i would have been too busy reviving him to be able to kill enemies

[Cyonan]

Annomander wrote...

Balance means balance. Balance isn't subjective, it's objective when a GI has the same surviviability and much better damage than a GTS, simply because of lolcloak.

Balance is not objective for the most part. There is no set formula for weighting how powerful survivability or damage output or CC or debuffs make a character. There is no pre-determined power level that all characters should be at.

There is no set amount of survivability that TC grants a character, You cannot accurately say "TC gives you X amount of survivability" because that's not even a measurable thing.

[RavenousBear]

I am not even going to touch this character whatsoever. It would feel cheap for me to use this power. I think this character is OP with no weaknesses but BW had to intentionally made it OP so I do not see an immediate nerf unless this class becomes an epidemic in lobbies like the Krysae.

[Bolo Xia]

upinya slayin wrote...

Bolo Xia wrote...

@Upinya

it just doesnt make sense, you guys want "newbies" to make more credits per game and trying to help them out.

but then turn around and want to nerf newb friendly characters.

there isnt an increase in credits per game yet, but this character is already here, so why not let them use it.

btw nobody is forcing, good player's to use this character, i only used it twice so far just to check it out. it was fun, but i prefer other characters.

seems to me the whole argument comes down to "only bad's will use it or over use it."
why does it even matter when most "bad's" are newbies that you guys wanted to help in the 1st place?

add:
so ya anyone that signed that "increase the credits for bronze and silver" thread, really should re-evaluate their stance on nerfing.

It is OP but i don't want it nerfed. I'm just debunking the statement that its not OP. the character in itself is more broken then the TGI IMO, but i don't want it nerfed. If that 1 random we had in a 20 min gold PUg (well me and 1 friend) dind't have the sexbot it would have basically been a solo with me and my friend. instead he kept up pace and was only a few thousand behind me and my friend at the end while dying 3-4 times every wave. the 4th random didn't die much and was a good etammate but didn't kill anything either. i'm glad that random had that character cause otherwise he would have been dead all teh time and i would have been too busy reviving him to be able to kill enemies

ya thats cool man, i wasnt sure what side of the fence you were on at the time.

i was doing another "look at it this way" example.

thats the only reason i brought up the other thread, was for the example or "way of thinking" pointer sorta deal.

i mean 90% of my post like  and  so, sorry if it came across as a calling you out post.

[upinya slayin]

Cyonan wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Balance means balance. Balance isn't subjective, it's objective when a GI has the same surviviability and much better damage than a GTS, simply because of lolcloak.

Balance is not objective for the most part. There is no set formula for weighting how powerful survivability or damage output or CC or debuffs make a character. There is no pre-determined power level that all characters should be at.

There is no set amount of survivability that TC grants a character, You cannot accurately say "TC gives you X amount of survivability" because that's not even a measurable thing.

balance is interesting caus eyou can't balance for player skill. with that said each kit has to have a combination of damage output, Mobility, and Survivability.  The higher 1 goes up the others must go down to balance it IMO. 1 of those 3 things has to suffer to make the kit balanced. kits like the TGI and sexbot are high on all 3 of those which is why they are OP. i don't consider the GI OP cause in unskilled hands he lacks the ability to stay alive. these characters can be used by bad players on high difficulties hence unbalanced