55 réponses à ce sujet

[peddroelm]

read Eric's tips before to understand the basic mechanics

Before everything - his bow powers -are projectile based - subject to lag ... Play him on host before passing final judgement ... Also because its a power - much less "right hand advantage" exploit potential ... (exacerbates squishiness)

Light melee fires arrows in a cone ..This is bad because you usually want all arrows to hit the same target hence ...
Need to use heavy melee to tighten the firing cone - and make all arrows hit the same target ...

Another thing to note after firing the charged bow shot your WEAPON (shotgun) will be AUTO aimed towards the enemy (press the fire button).. ...Synergy with slow firing accurate shotguns like claymore, wraith ... Works with charge up guns also (gps, graal, venom - can hold charge while firing//activating bow powers)

Bow attacks can have 2 components melee + enchantment (2 separate hits per arrow fired)...
Weapon melee add-on bonuses are multiplicative towards both components (melee and enchantment) ... Which means the best weapons for our bow specialist are shotguns .. (*50 melee damage add-on ) ...

Melee_component_damage_per_arrow = 100 * (1 + sum_ominbow_mastery_bonuses + sum_melee bonuses ) * melee_add_on_bonus

Maxed this should look like 100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5 = 450 .. Given you can fire at most 5 arrows at once this could mean 450 * 5 = 2250 damage from the melee component alone when firing enchanted arrows .. (can only get 5 arrow attacks when using enchanted attacks) ... Without enchantment you get 3 arrows ( max 1350 can finish off injured foes) ...


Enchanted_component_damage_per_arrow = Base * (1+ sum_enchantment_skill_damage + sum_power_bonuses) * melee_add_on_bonus * DefenceMultiplier for impact... They can also have DOT components that are % of impact damage applied over 5 seconds (also subject to defence multipliers) ...

Base is 25 for concussive arrows ... 100 for AP arrows ... AP arrows have * 1.5 DefenceMultiplier vs armor ... Can get an extra *1.35 vs armor from skill..

Concussive arrow dot component Shock 5a has *1.5 DefenceMultiplier vs shields (and probably barriers) ..This DOT component can be boosted by sabotage tech vulnerability ... Conccusive arrow debuff is applied per arrow ..


Maximal (approximate -its late might edit later) damage per AP arrow vs armor 100 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 * 1.35 * 1.5 = 757.85625
..

So it is possible for the elemental component to do more damage than the melee one ... Total damage  vs armor(5 AP arrows) 5 * (450 + 757.85625) = 6039.28125 probably lower (must chose between power and melee bonuses ) ...

Phantom will probably casually block arrows with her power immunity (ironically I have not actually played the class (many of the new classes) yet) ...


Damage examples

Normal 3 arrows
-----------------

+5529 ms |damage 318.000000 // 100 * (1 + 1 + 0.12) * 1.5 = 318
+30 ms |damage 318.000000
+33 ms |damage 318.000000


Conccusive with shock dot vs armor (5 arrows)
----------------------------------------------

+14520 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000 // 25 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 = 60
+26 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000
+37 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000
+1 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000
+37 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 60.000000

+257 ms |damage 6.000000 // 25 * (1+0.1+0.2+0.3) * 1.5 /10
+24 ms |damage 6.000000
+56 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+35 ms |damage 6.000000

+328 ms |damage 6.000000
+29 ms |damage 6.000000
+52 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+38 ms |damage 6.000000

+340 ms |damage 6.000000
+29 ms |damage 6.000000
+24 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+49 ms |damage 6.000000

+334 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000
+50 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+32 ms |damage 6.000000

+337 ms |damage 6.000000
+28 ms |damage 6.000000
+51 ms |damage 6.000000
+0 ms |damage 6.000000
+43 ms |damage 6.000000

+341 ms |damage 6.000000
+35 ms |damage 6.000000
+24 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000

+346 ms |damage 6.000000
+31 ms |damage 6.000000
+33 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+36 ms |damage 6.000000

+329 ms |damage 6.000000
+27 ms |damage 6.000000
+57 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000

+346 ms |damage 6.000000
+26 ms |damage 6.000000
+54 ms |damage 6.000000
+1 ms |damage 6.000000
+38 ms |damage 6.000000

+327 ms |damage 6.000000
+25 ms |damage 6.000000
+50 ms |damage 6.000000
+2 ms |damage 6.000000
+18 ms |damage 6.000000

AP arrows vs armor (5)
-------------------

+9151 ms |damage 318.000000 // 100 * (1 + 1 + 0.12) * 1.5 = 318
+1 ms |damage 486.000000
+26 ms |damage 318.000000
+0 ms |damage 486.000000
+31 ms |damage 318.000000
+1 ms |damage 486.000000
+36 ms |damage 318.000000
+2 ms |damage 486.000000
+1 ms |damage 318.000000
+0 ms |damage 486.000000 // 100 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.35 * 1.5


//////////////////////
///////////////////////

Edit concussive arrow chill (debuff is applied per arrow) example

20 30 100% damage 5 sec

chill 5 % debuff stacks 3 times

chill arrowcount

25 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.3 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.25 = 59.375

+463962 ms |Health Damage 265.000000
+1 ms |Health Damage 59.375000
+2 ms |Health Damage 278.250000 // 265 * 1.05 = 278.25
+1 ms |Health Damage 62.343750 // 25 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.3 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.25 * 1.05 = 62.34375
+93 ms |Health Damage 291.500000
+0 ms |Health Damage 65.312500
+94 ms |Health Damage 304.750000
+1 ms |Health Damage 68.281250
+0 ms |Health Damage 304.750000
+1 ms |Health Damage 68.281250

/////////////////////////////////////
//////////////////////////////////////

cain trip mine vs armor with armor evo

+243977 ms |damage 4320.000000
+59035 ms |damage 4320.000000
1200 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 4320

Switched to power pistol (+30% PD)
1200 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 5130
+74129 ms |damage 5130.000000

Working as expected .. A true nuke vs armor with the extra *1.5 vs armor evolution and huge base damage  (had 5 points in it in this test and 10% from passive)... Damage potential is massive ..

1200 * (1 + 0.375 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 8086.5 (although if you want to use arrows will need to drop the 30% PD from pistol/smg)

Has great spawn clearing potential ...Especially if paired with an area debuff like recon mine ...

////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////

Updated maximal damage calculation for talon Bow after last balance changes (12.03.2013)

Un-enchanted pure melee arrows (5 per attack)
100 * (1 + (0.15 + 0.25 + 0.35 + 0.5 + 0.25) + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5 = 450 // 1 arrow
100 * (1 + (0.15 + 0.25 + 0.35 + 0.5 + 0.25) + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5 * 5 = 2250 // can 1 shot unshielded gold mooks like geth trooper, cannibal, cerberus trooper , husk

Max Damage per arrow is same as before but you get 5 arrows instead of 3 per attack ..

----------------------------
AP arrows damage per arrow

AP arrow damage vs armor
75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 * 1.35 * 1.5 = 568.3922 //Even nerfed AP arrow component can out-damage melee component vs armored targets

AP arrow damage vs non-armor
75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5 + 0.12) * 1.5 = 280.6875 // when not hitting armor however melee component superior


---------------------------------

Maximal damage for AP arrows attack (6 melee arrows + 6 AP arrows )

5b (armor damage)

vs non-armor

6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5) * 1.5)) = 4303.125

vs armor

6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5)*1.5*1.35 * 1.5)) = 5946.3282 // ~ same value as before AP arrow nerf

and 5a (shred)
5a is also multiplicative (but has a DOT component)

and will work vs all targets ..

vs non armored
6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5) * 1.5 * 1.5)) = 5104.6875

vs armored
6 * ((100 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 1.5) + (75 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.375 + 0.5) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 6307.03125

Modifié par peddroelmz, 13 mars 2013 - 11:15 .

[Alijah Green]

(vs Armor) are the numbers showing a bugged AP arrow, because from my exprience the second shot doesn't do the same damage as the first.

[peddroelm]

morning bump

[ErrorTagUnknown]

Nice numbers. I think this bow is a little more potent than people give it credit for

[ErrorTagUnknown]

Also, way more legible than previous walls of numbers. The minutia was nicely grouped so I could figure out what was going on behind the scenes

[Koenig888]

Good work, as always. If the key bindings weren't bugged, I might use the Talon more often.

[Colonel Sheppard]

ErrorTagUnknown wrote...

Nice numbers. I think this bow is a little more potent than people give it credit for

No, it's not that.  I did a lot of games with this guy.  When I wasn't host, the AP Arrows mostly did 1 bar of health off a Brute on gold.  When I hosted, it did massive damage... most of the time.  It's not only the damage that is the problem.  By the time you enable AP arrows and then do the heavy melee, it takes so long and sometimes the arrow won't fly.  It just keeps tracking the enemy.  On top of that, he is a very buggy character and to give so much health and shields over to melee when his melee exposes him is not a good trade off. He's ok on gold.  Would not play him on platinum with an all melee and power build.

[eddieoctane]

ErrorTagUnknown wrote...

Nice numbers. I think this bow is a little more potent than people give it credit for

Without a 50% melee mod and a specific build, the arrows are nearly worthless on silver. And considering you cant even use it around the left edge of cover, I think you're giving it more credit than the power is due.

[peddroelm]

bump

[jaydubs67]

Great info as always.

[Deerber]

Thanks as always man

[ChaseSanchez]

Love the maths. Thanks for this.

I am sold on this kit. Its most likely the most tactical kit in the game. Just remember melee mod on your weapon and strength enhancer.

Yes, it is platinum ready

[KalilKareem]

Hmm. I am not very up to speed with the numbers in this game. How does the bow dps compare to a reload cancelled claymore if we take the animation time into account?

[peddroelm]

KalilKareem wrote...

Hmm. I am not very up to speed with the numbers in this game. How does the bow dps compare to a reload cancelled claymore if we take the animation time into account?

 

Probably less (cannot headshot).. But nothing is stopping you to unload the claymore every time you fire the bow (will be already be AUTO aimed at the enemy)...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 02 mars 2013 - 01:20 .

[UnknownMercenary]

Bah, another host only character.

[KalilKareem]

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Hmm. I am not very up to speed with the numbers in this game. How does the bow dps compare to a reload cancelled claymore if we take the animation time into account?

 

Probably less (cannot headshot).. But nothing is stopping you to unload the claymore every time you fire the bow (will be already be AUTO aimed at the enemy)...

You can? I thought that trick only worked with charged weapons? Thats quite interestying, since i am terribad at hitting moving targets

[peddroelm]

KalilKareem wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Hmm. I am not very up to speed with the numbers in this game. How does the bow dps compare to a reload cancelled claymore if we take the animation time into account?

 

Probably less (cannot headshot).. But nothing is stopping you to unload the claymore every time you fire the bow (will be already be AUTO aimed at the enemy)...

You can? I thought that trick only worked with charged weapons? Thats quite interestying, since i am terribad at hitting moving targets

didn't read eric's link suggested in op

..
5) Locking onto targets

The bow has a lock-on mechanic that uses the same targeting as powers to determine who it will hit. To hit targets, ensure that you have them highlighted (just like you would if you fired a power like Incinerate). Once you have a target highlighted and hold the melee button, your camera will lock on to that target and your arrows should seek to him when you release the bow. Enemies can dodge your arrows just like any other power.
...

[kipac]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

Bah, another host only character.

Trip mine works fine off-host though.
And many people seem to abandoned bow altoghter. 
'tis a tragedy...!

[ChaseSanchez]

@unknown merc
I actually only play it off host (I would rather play the slayer if I'm hosting). I've had the generic off host problems with it but what kit doesn't have lag related problems? I carry a heavy dps weapon and a side arm (something that can help get me or my squad out of trouble). I've had off host, scoreboard topping (if that matters), platinum success carrying a heavy sniper rifle and geth shotty. An assualt rifle and shotty, scorpion, or acolyte works as well.

[dreenor]

Koenig888 wrote...

Good work, as always. If the key bindings weren't bugged, I might use the Talon more often.

I'm sure it's a great character, but because of this bug i don't want to use it at all.
I know it's free but i think it's unacceptable to realease a DLC, even free,  with such huge bugs.
So no Talon for me until Bioware fix it.

[sandboxgod]

Another great post from you peddro.

[Silverblade-T-E]

You can waste time using heavy melee to "lock on" so all arrows hit and..meh  
OR
you can just shoot the target, which works much better!

So *why bother*?
needs to be made a normal power like any other
have concussive arrow hit multiple targets like "overload" at higher evolutions (ie the arrows auto seek varying targets)
and the armour piercing arrow just hits ONE target but for tons of anti armor damage

so you have mook and boss attacks as you preffer.

Modifié par Silverblade-T-E, 02 mars 2013 - 02:07 .

[KalilKareem]

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Hmm. I am not very up to speed with the numbers in this game. How does the bow dps compare to a reload cancelled claymore if we take the animation time into account?

 

Probably less (cannot headshot).. But nothing is stopping you to unload the claymore every time you fire the bow (will be already be AUTO aimed at the enemy)...

You can? I thought that trick only worked with charged weapons? Thats quite interestying, since i am terribad at hitting moving targets

didn't read eric's link suggested in op

..
5) Locking onto targets

The bow has a lock-on mechanic that uses the same targeting as powers to determine who it will hit. To hit targets, ensure that you have them highlighted (just like you would if you fired a power like Incinerate). Once you have a target highlighted and hold the melee button, your camera will lock on to that target and your arrows should seek to him when you release the bow. Enemies can dodge your arrows just like any other power.
...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

[peddroelm]

KalilKareem wrote...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

 

not during .. After you release the arrows fire gun... 

Nothing stops the talon to also carry the claymore .. And do  arrow dps + claymore DPS ..

Modifié par peddroelmz, 02 mars 2013 - 02:30 .

[KalilKareem]

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

 

not during .. After you release the arrows fire gun...

But then there is no overlap in terms of dps. All the time spent shooting bow is time not spent fireing or reloading the claymore and vice versa. Hence, if the full equipped bow deals less damage than the claymore (with no special talents or gear beyond what is on the claymore itself (presumably heavy barrel and smart choke)) then this is conclusive evidence that the ability is entirely redundant.