55 réponses à ce sujet

[KalilKareem]

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

 

not during .. After you release the arrows fire gun... 

Nothing stops the talon to also carry the claymore .. And do  arrow dps + claymore DPS ..

You are a talented man. Surely you realize that since you cannot fire the claymore during the bow animation you are absolutely and positively not able to add the dps figures. You do them in sequence, not in parallell.

[BjornDaDwarf]

KalilKareem wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

 

not during .. After you release the arrows fire gun...

But then there is no overlap in terms of dps. All the time spent shooting bow is time not spent fireing or reloading the claymore and vice versa. Hence, if the full equipped bow deals less damage than the claymore (with no special talents or gear beyond what is on the claymore itself (presumably heavy barrel and smart choke)) then this is conclusive evidence that the ability is entirely redundant.

The bow works best at range, not up close.  You snipe with it while enemies approach, and then switch to mines/weapon once they've closed to CQC range.  Just think of it as giving you the ability to carry both a weightless Widow and a Claymore on the same build.  The Bow will be able to one-shot most second tier enemies at lock-on range (most of the way across most maps), which is something the Claymore cannot do.  Your assumption is that you are always in Claymore one-shot range.  

I think the bow has some issues, but damage isn't the problem.  

Thanks Peddro for clarifying the numbers of the bow!

[KalilKareem]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

 

not during .. After you release the arrows fire gun...

But then there is no overlap in terms of dps. All the time spent shooting bow is time not spent fireing or reloading the claymore and vice versa. Hence, if the full equipped bow deals less damage than the claymore (with no special talents or gear beyond what is on the claymore itself (presumably heavy barrel and smart choke)) then this is conclusive evidence that the ability is entirely redundant.

The bow works best at range, not up close.  You snipe with it while enemies approach, and then switch to mines/weapon once they've closed to CQC range.  Just think of it as giving you the ability to carry both a weightless Widow and a Claymore on the same build.  The Bow will be able to one-shot most second tier enemies at lock-on range (most of the way across most maps), which is something the Claymore cannot do.  Your assumption is that you are always in Claymore one-shot range.  

I think the bow has some issues, but damage isn't the problem. 

Thanks Peddro for clarifying the numbers of the bow!

The talon only has grenade power, so you can carry a claymore and a regular widow without problem.

[Kalas Magnus]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

Bah, another host only character.

[mrcanada]

Having to host to make a character even remotely effective is a failed character. Great concept, but once again, terrible execution.

[BjornDaDwarf]

KalilKareem wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

Yes I did. But, it doesnt work. You cannot fire your gun during the bow animation, I just tried it im game. So basically, any level 1 chacater with a claymore out-dps:es a full melee speced level 20 talon with full equipment.

 

not during .. After you release the arrows fire gun...

But then there is no overlap in terms of dps. All the time spent shooting bow is time not spent fireing or reloading the claymore and vice versa. Hence, if the full equipped bow deals less damage than the claymore (with no special talents or gear beyond what is on the claymore itself (presumably heavy barrel and smart choke)) then this is conclusive evidence that the ability is entirely redundant.

The bow works best at range, not up close.  You snipe with it while enemies approach, and then switch to mines/weapon once they've closed to CQC range.  Just think of it as giving you the ability to carry both a weightless Widow and a Claymore on the same build.  The Bow will be able to one-shot most second tier enemies at lock-on range (most of the way across most maps), which is something the Claymore cannot do.  Your assumption is that you are always in Claymore one-shot range.  

I think the bow has some issues, but damage isn't the problem. 

Thanks Peddro for clarifying the numbers of the bow!

The talon only has grenade power, so you can carry a claymore and a regular widow without problem.

Except that you'll be giving up 20-40+ free grenades per match by doing that.  His auto-regeneration does depend on weight.  Keeping regeneration high keeps you stocked on grenade poor maps, when you have other grenade users in the party and gives you the option of taking something other than Grenade Capacity.  

And you would constantly be switching between weapons, wasting time (where as with the bow, if you have no near targets, you just aim and shoot).  You complained about the inneficient use of time with the Claymore vs the bow, carrying both a Widow and a Claymore is a worse use of time.

And if you want to run a class with the Widow and the Claymore, there are better classes.  Why stick the Claymore on everything when there are far more interesting ways to build a class?  And what is the logic in comparing every power the Claymore?  It's a silly argument.  

As I said, I think the bow has problems.  But your arguments are poor, ill conceived and use the traditionally faulty BSN logic of trying to compare every weapon and power to the Claymore, a tragically overhyped weapon of limited utility. 

[FMultimedia]

peddroelmz wrote...



So it is possible for the elemental component to do more damage than the melee one ... Total damage  vs armor(5 AP arrows) 5 * (375 + 757.85625) = 5664.28125 probably lower (must chose between power and melee bonuses ) ...

So the locked on 5 AP arrows deal around 5k dmg to armored targets (someone correct me if I'm wrong)? Are you even counting the 50% extra dmg fitness 5 gives after the first ko? That alone seems like a good reason to use arrows alongside a Claymore. And yes, the Claymore can be used that split second after a heavy melee is dealt, no skill involved 100% certain hit. You can just "highlight" a target, like with other powers, let the game mechanics lock, fire arrow, shoot claymore. Hopefully hitting a debuffed enemy. Has been working fine for me, thought I confess I make a point of hosting - never even tried playing off host.

[BjornDaDwarf]

FMultimedia wrote...

So the locked on 5 AP arrows deal around 5k dmg to armored targets (someone correct me if I'm wrong)? Are you even counting the 50% extra dmg fitness 5 gives after the first ko? 

That only lasts for 8 seconds, much shorter than the standard 30 on other kits, which makes it much harder to depend on.  It would also only affect the melee portion of the arrows (not enchanted damge), so 75 points per arrow times 5 (375 more damage), if you had an omni-blade.  It's arguable one of the places that a buff would make a lot of sense for damage.  Extend duration out to at least 20 seconds, and maybe make the bonus 75 percent.  It would make the non-enchanted arrows more useful.  It only boosts a non-enchanted shot by 225 as it is now.

I'm not sure if his calculation had the Armor damage evo, or the bleed evo.  Bleed would result in more total damage, but the armor evolution would all be upfront.  

[FMultimedia]

I'm with you - duration should be longer, bonus higher. Still, it's not too difficult to kill enemies with your melee (despite EVERYTHING EVERYONE is saying, I know, but that's my real experience), most of the time I manage to keep the buff up - yes, it is distinctively noticeble somehow... May be because of the multiplicative bonuses mentioned in that first post?

Modifié par FMultimedia, 02 mars 2013 - 03:33 .

[peddroelm]

FMultimedia wrote...

So the locked on 5 AP arrows deal around 5k dmg to armored targets (someone correct me if I'm wrong)? Are you even counting the 50% extra dmg fitness 5 gives after the first ko? That alone seems like a good reason to use arrows alongside a Claymore. ..

Was tired .. Did not add that 50% temp bonus for the melee component ... 100 * 0.5 * 1.5 * 5 = 375 extra damage to that maximal hit ...

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

banshees, preatorians, and phantoms can use their power blocking bubble to stop damage from concussive or armour piercing arrows. pretty damn annoying

[Lamiaaa]

KalilKareem wrote...

But then there is no overlap in terms of dps. All the time spent shooting bow is time not spent fireing or reloading the claymore and vice versa. Hence, if the full equipped bow deals less damage than the claymore (with no special talents or gear beyond what is on the claymore itself (presumably heavy barrel and smart choke)) then this is conclusive evidence that the ability is entirely redundant.

all the time spent playing anything someone wants to play could be spent playing a geth infiltrator or juggernaut instead

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

banshees, preatorians, and phantoms can use their power blocking bubble to stop damage from
concussive or armour piercing arrows. pretty damn annoying

the fields block all melee and powers anyway (although I don't remember if phantom field blocks melee) so not sure where you're going with this point

Modifié par Lamiaaa, 02 mars 2013 - 05:23 .

[ManicFruitcake]

Explains the results I was having in this thread: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/16087395/2#16094504

Is it better to use an engineering kit or hydraulic joints to boost AP arrows damage further? (Went with engineering kit in my test)

Modifié par ManicFruitcake, 02 mars 2013 - 05:56 .

[himegoto]

Thanks for the numbers peddro.
But I still cannot play the kit literally. Sprint is binded to my shift key and that brings up the power menu.
Will def try it when bioware decided to start fixing things. However the damage from the arrows look really pathetic on paper to me?

[peddroelm]

himegoto wrote...

Thanks for the numbers peddro.
But I still cannot play the kit literally. Sprint is binded to my shift key and that brings up the power menu.
Will def try it when bioware decided to start fixing things. However the damage from the arrows look really pathetic on paper to me?

 

When heavyly invested in the omnibow's damage will be reasonable (also has a few tricks such as debuff, aoe stagger//ragdoll)  (can always use your weapon dps to suplement) ... Ironically his cain trip mines  are easier to use and do more damage with less points invested ... It is an unique playstile that is difficult to get the hang of ..

[himegoto]

peddroelmz wrote...

himegoto wrote...

Thanks for the numbers peddro.
But I still cannot play the kit literally. Sprint is binded to my shift key and that brings up the power menu.
Will def try it when bioware decided to start fixing things. However the damage from the arrows look really pathetic on paper to me?

 

When heavyly invested in the omnibow's damage will be reasonable (also has a few tricks such as debuff, aoe stagger//ragdoll)  (can always use your weapon dps to suplement) ... Ironically his cain trip mines  are easier to use and do more damage with less points invested ... It is an unique playstile that is difficult to get the hang of ..

Skimmed through some posts and saw someone mentioning using the arrows as a stagger tool and rely on guns. Actually sounds practical to me but kind of makes him a human soldier with mines instead of nades and wonky mechanics?
Another friend was telling me he had to heavily rely on them big guns...

Still, not going to know until I can play with the kit 

[IIFlash]

Thanks, do you know how useful the armor debuff on Armor-Piercing Arrows is, or if it in fact works at all?

[peddroelm]

IIFlash wrote...

Thanks, do you know how useful the armor debuff on Armor-Piercing Arrows is, or if it in fact works at all?

 

Did not test it - should be the standard 50% armor DR weakening so many other powers can provide (warp, cryo blast, snap freeze, homing grenades, ...) Eric commented on it at some point .. .. Less important for the talon as much of his DPs is supposed to be  power based ... 

What really sells that particular evolution to me is the extra *1.35 multiplicative damage vs armor of the enchantment component (AP arrows) .. 50% arnor DR weakening could matter for teammates or if you use hit scan shotguns (can lose up to 8*50= 400 damage per shot to armor DR - for the weak ones (scimitar) that can be all their damage per shot)

Modifié par peddroelmz, 04 mars 2013 - 04:41 .

[chielhier313]

Tl;Dr, he still sucks. Even as host. Respecced him, max shields and max weapon damage. Maxed out trip mines and both arrows rank 4 extra nades, slap on some heavy weapons and you're good to go

[Litefire]

200+ waves on gold completed, on him. it was painful and i didnt go into a game without full equipment even when everyone else had nothing on... it was sad. One game had a warlord who could 1 hit melee(no biotic or tech buff) hammer geth troopers and nearly 1 hit rocket troopers from full health full shields, and me in my juggernaut shield V + str 3 + power amp 3 heavy melee concussion amped arrows, wasn't getting all the way through the Rocket Troopers shields.

[peddroelm]

Litefire wrote...

200+ waves on gold completed, on him. it was painful and i didnt go into a game without full equipment even when everyone else had nothing on... it was sad. One game had a warlord who could 1 hit melee(no biotic or tech buff) hammer geth troopers and nearly 1 hit rocket troopers from full health full shields, and me in my juggernaut shield V + str 3 + power amp 3 heavy melee concussion amped arrows, wasn't getting all the way through the Rocket Troopers shields.

Concussion arrows are for lol area stagger /ragdoll effects vs shielded enemies .. No need to take much aim (want to cover wide area)  Crowd Control ...

AP arrows have single target 1 shot kill potential ... Need to spend more time charging/aiming .. 

Biggest issue - need to rebind melee key on mouse button (PC)   .. Cannot charge melee while moving WASD + F  (cumbersome) ...But he also has the gift of resetting key binds ...  To cold storage until/if ever they fix that ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 04 mars 2013 - 07:19 .

[Learn To Love Yourself]

Hi Peddro,

Thank you for this testing. I had a question about Host vs Off Host. I understand what you're saying regarding the bow being projectile, but I noticed a large difference in damage done with the same spec, same mods, same equipment between on and off host. I was wondering if you did any testing off host.

A focused Unenchanted Bow shot on host took a Marauder down from full shields to 1 bar of health. When playing off host, it would be very inconsistent, sometimes not even breaking through shields.

[peddroelm]

Jack Crapper wrote...

Hi Peddro,

Thank you for this testing. I had a question about Host vs Off Host. I understand what you're saying regarding the bow being projectile, but I noticed a large difference in damage done with the same spec, same mods, same equipment between on and off host. I was wondering if you did any testing off host.

A focused Unenchanted Bow shot on host took a Marauder down from full shields to 1 bar of health. When playing off host, it would be very inconsistent, sometimes not even breaking through shields.

All numbers shown in this thread were from an off host test (I has hosting // Talon Merc joined the test game) ... It was not a half way across the globe offhost test like in the case of the AIU TC 6b test but offhost nonetheless ..

Modifié par peddroelmz, 06 mars 2013 - 08:19 .

[joechung]

The bow sucks. The trip mine is this kit's saving grace.

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Has anyone figured out what causes the PC keybinding issue yet?