76 réponses à ce sujet

[Paeyvn]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

HK-447 wrote...

Thermal clips are utilized to decrease the time between firing, so the gun wouldnt overheat and take a while to cool down, I never heard of thermal clips improving weapon power

This.

The alliance picked up thermal clip ideas from the Geth who utilized it. Weapon power wan't a factor.

Incorrect. It was indeed a move to make weapons able to shoot more powerful rounds as WELL as not waiting for a weapon to cooldown.

www.youtube.com/watch

^ Taken straight from the ME3 campaign ^

Modifié par Paeyvn, 02 mars 2013 - 02:12 .

[JaimasOfRaxis]

You know, Gears of War did the same thing with the Retro Lancer, bringing back the Pendulum Wars-era assault rifle because even though it had piddling accuracy, it did huge damage and once it was given a reinforced bayonet, more than capable of kicking serious ass.

Desperate times call for desperate circumstances. This is how wars work. You watch a battle drag on, you'll see people resort to older gear all the time, because it costs bugger all and typically still works as expected. Russia practically made a military tactic based on deploying 20+year old armored vehicles via its reserves because you don't need cutting-edge to get "bullet goes in other guy" right.

Modifié par JaimasOfRaxis, 02 mars 2013 - 02:18 .

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Paeyvn wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

HK-447 wrote...

Thermal clips are utilized to decrease the time between firing, so the gun wouldnt overheat and take a while to cool down, I never heard of thermal clips improving weapon power

This.

The alliance picked up thermal clip ideas from the Geth who utilized it. Weapon power wan't a factor.

Incorrect. It was indeed a move to make weapons able to shoot more powerful rounds as WELL as not waiting for a weapon to cooldown.

www.youtube.com/watch

^ Taken straight from the ME3 campaign ^

Yeah, about that...

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

By the way, did you even watch the clip before linking it? Because I don't think you did. "Be able to shoot more powerful rounds" don't enter into it.

Modifié par Chi_Mangetsu, 02 mars 2013 - 02:22 .

[Paeyvn]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

Paeyvn wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

HK-447 wrote...

Thermal clips are utilized to decrease the time between firing, so the gun wouldnt overheat and take a while to cool down, I never heard of thermal clips improving weapon power

This.

The alliance picked up thermal clip ideas from the Geth who utilized it. Weapon power wan't a factor.

Incorrect. It was indeed a move to make weapons able to shoot more powerful rounds as WELL as not waiting for a weapon to cooldown.

www.youtube.com/watch

^ Taken straight from the ME3 campaign ^

Yeah, about that...

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

Congratulations, you quoted a wiki (edited by anyone) and claimed it refuted in game Bioware explanations (the game creators).

You also failed to realize I agreed it was to avoid waiting on weapon heat, but that simultaneously it allowed for stronger rounds to be fired.

[N7Kopper]

There are eleven million misconceptions about lore and canon, most involving teleportation, Reaper bosses, multiracial special forces, melee attacks and shields... but not much about guns. I'm impressed, BSN.

That said, the Lancer is stronger because the Avenger is a mass-produced PoS - even turian troops on Palaven and Menae have more Avengers than Phaestons, and every Shepard and N7 Spec Ops team start with access to Avengers. The Lancer is an ultra-rare cutting-edge weapon specced with tech gleaned from the PPR, CSR, and CSMG. Really expensive, and in such short supply that even Shepard can't yet get hold of one. It just so hapens to use the old design as a base, like the Mattock used an old design for a base, too.

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Paeyvn wrote...

Congratulations, you quoted a wiki (edited by anyone) and claimed it refuted in game Bioware explanations (the game creators).

You also failed to realize I agreed it was to avoid waiting on weapon heat, but that simultaneously it allowed for stronger rounds to be fired.

By the way, did you even watch the clip before linking it? Because I don't think you did. "Be able to shoot more powerful rounds" don't enter into it.

More rounds =/= more powerful rounds.

[Paeyvn]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

Paeyvn wrote...

Congratulations, you quoted a wiki (edited by anyone) and claimed it refuted in game Bioware explanations (the game creators).

You also failed to realize I agreed it was to avoid waiting on weapon heat, but that simultaneously it allowed for stronger rounds to be fired.

By the way, did you even watch the clip before linking it? Because I don't think you did. "Be able to shoot more powerful rounds" don't enter into it.

More rounds =/= more powerful rounds.

*sigh* Did YOU watch the clip? Go to 26 seconds, watch from then to 32 seconds, then come back and talk to me like you aren't being dumb.

*Edit* You know what, no, I'll quote it for you since that's probably too hard.

"It lets guns fire with more power AND soldiers can pop in a new clip instead of waiting for the gun to cool"

Modifié par Paeyvn, 02 mars 2013 - 02:30 .

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Paeyvn wrote...

*sigh* Did YOU watch the clip? Go to 26 seconds, watch from then to 32 seconds, then come back and talk to me like you aren't being dumb.

*Edit* You know what, no, I'll quote it for you since that's probably too hard.

"It lets guns fire with more power AND soldiers can pop in a new clip instead of waiting for the gun to cool"

By "more power" she means not mitigating firing speed for cooldown. If you were competent in ME1, short of Sabotaging enemies, that was less of a worry as pulsing your shots resulted in better accuracy and less chance of overheating. For as narmy as Conrad Verner is (by design), he has a great point and the devs are poking fun at that commonly argued niggle from ME2, which is what's happening there. If you totally run out of ammo (i.e., thermal clips), your "power" is going to be nonexistent. 

[LeandroBraz]

alhamel94 wrote...

DoomHK wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

How on earth does it break lore? It's entirely possible to have older weapons in a modern war. Lancer's not even that old, I dare say. Mass effect 1 was maybe 4-5 years ago in the mass effect timeline?

Indeed. The gap between ME1 and ME3 is even smaller than that, so there's absolutely no reason why the M-7 couldn't appear.

yes but the fact the it is so powerful is what breaks the lore. in theory thermal clips are utilized to increase weapon power. the fact the old model without thermal clips is signifigantly more powerful than the avenger is what breaks the lore.

If Zaeed told us that she is deadly, it's because she is deadly. Or you gonna look at Zaeed eyes and say on his face he is lying?

[Paeyvn]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

Paeyvn wrote...

*sigh* Did YOU watch the clip? Go to 26 seconds, watch from then to 32 seconds, then come back and talk to me like you aren't being dumb.

*Edit* You know what, no, I'll quote it for you since that's probably too hard.

"It lets guns fire with more power AND soldiers can pop in a new clip instead of waiting for the gun to cool"

By "more power" she means not mitigating firing speed for cooldown. If you were competent in ME1, short of Sabotaging enemies, that was less of a worry as pulsing your shots resulted in better accuracy and less chance of overheating. For as narmy as Conrad Verner is (by design), he has a great point and the devs are poking fun at that commonly argued niggle from ME2, which is what's happening there. If you totally run out of ammo (i.e., thermal clips), your "power" is going to be nonexistent. 

I disagree with that interpretation of "more power" that you've stated. I seem to remember there being another explanation somewhere as well but can't for the life of me remember where it was in the campaigns. Even going from gameplay examples the amount of bullets required to down a target between ME1 and ME2 when the change was introduced was enormous which supports my theory. The main reason I saw for this was a playstyle shift the game creators wanted to push and the lore explanation for why this happened simply falls apart if the guns do not fire more powerful rounds. As I've stated before the thermal clips provide a combination of power per shot as well as lack of heat management and cooldown, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

However, I do thank you for providing a thought out response instead of a copy & paste "about that" this time, and apologize for my earlier rudeness, but you pressed a button that irks me a great deal.

I am in no way saying the Lancer in the current ME3 MP breaks the lore either, I was simply refuting the earlier argument that weapon power was not a factor in the change. The Lancer, using technology from the other alien weapons that have been reverse engineered since ME1 could easily be far more efficient than previous models with shot power to match modern thermal clip weapons.

*Edit* To further explain my interpretation of "allowing weapons to fire with more power" I see that statement as translating to "delivers more kinetic energy per shot". This is how my brain takes the meaning by default after years of physics class.

Modifié par Paeyvn, 02 mars 2013 - 02:45 .

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Paeyvn wrote...

I disagree with that interpretation of "more power" that you've stated. I seem to remember there being another explanation somewhere as well but can't for the life of me remember where it was in the campaigns. Even going from gameplay examples the amount of bullets required to down a target between ME1 and ME2 when the change was introduced was enormous which supports my theory. The main reason I saw for this was a playstyle shift the game creators wanted to push and the lore explanation for why this happened simply falls apart if the guns do not fire more powerful rounds. As I've stated before the thermal clips provide a combination of power per shot as well as lack of heat management and cooldown, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

However, I do thank you for providing a thought out response instead of a copy & paste "about that" this time, and apologize for my earlier rudeness, but you pressed a button that irks me a great deal.

I am in no way saying the Lancer in the current ME3 MP breaks the lore either, I was simply refuting the earlier argument that weapon power was not a factor in the change. The Lancer, using technology from the other alien weapons that have been reverse engineered since ME1 could easily be far more efficient than previous models with shot power to match modern thermal clip weapons.

And I apologize for any smarminess on my part. I do confess that it tends to be my natural mode.

Perhaps Author/Fandom(?) Mouthpiece Conrad Verner was predicting the resurgence of the Lancer to its current place of glory. Certainly, though, in the former pre-thermal clip days, a weapon like the Indra, for example, would be virtually untenable. The Claymore would be a lodestone without the presence of reload cancelling and other high-level skill tactics likewise applying to other builds. Suffice to say, comparing the combat system of ME1 to its sequels is at least a relay jump or two away. 

[xBUMMx]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

You know, Gears of War did the same thing with the Retro Lancer, bringing back the Pendulum Wars-era assault rifle because even though it had piddling accuracy, it did huge damage and once it was given a reinforced bayonet, more than capable of kicking serious ass.

And he'll, the books even explained that they used the same bullets.

Sidenote: The grubs were actually the ones to bring it back, the COG didn't. Delta just found and used them during the game. And that was 17 years after the E-Day, not just one. And, proportianlly, the situation in Gear of War was a lot worse than the one in Mass Effect 3

[BleedingUranium]

Cyonan wrote...

You should read the weapon's description =P

It actually addresses the weapon power thing.

Exactly. The Lancer does not break lore, nor does anything else in MP. Go find something else to complain about.

[Podboq]

From the description ingame:
" ... it now uses the higher velocity rounds of today's weaponry. "

It's an old style overheating weapon upgraded for more power.
That's why it does more damage than the avenger.

No lore being broken here.


edit, typo

Modifié par Podboq, 02 mars 2013 - 03:11 .

[solidprice]

Astartes Marine wrote...

RaptorSolutions wrote...
Get your lore straight. Its utilized to increase overall firepower by increasing overall RoF because its easier for a trained soldier to reload rather than waiting for it to cooldown. Compare a standard AR without mods to let you fire forever to the current Avenger. One will keep up a greater volume of fire.

If those soldiers knew the value of frictionless materials then there would be no overheat...ever.  I distincly remember being able to fire the HMWA weapons without regard for heat because of them.

Kinda defeats the idea of thermal clips if you have the firepower and no fear of overheat.

this.

[Paeyvn]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

Suffice to say, comparing the combat system of ME1 to its sequels is at least a relay jump or two away. 

True, never said it wasn't. The interpretation I take on thermal clips and power is the only way it makes sense in my mind. The lore was created to facilitate a gameplay change they wished to push, and it is sketchy at best.

[oO Stryfe Oo]

8 Bears wrote...

Because the lore has been broken in about a thousand different ways already by MP, everyone stopped caring.

Stretched, but never broken.

[alhamel94]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

Paeyvn wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

HK-447 wrote...

Thermal clips are utilized to decrease the time between firing, so the gun wouldnt overheat and take a while to cool down, I never heard of thermal clips improving weapon power

This.

The alliance picked up thermal clip ideas from the Geth who utilized it. Weapon power wan't a factor.

Incorrect. It was indeed a move to make weapons able to shoot more powerful rounds as WELL as not waiting for a weapon to cooldown.

www.youtube.com/watch

^ Taken straight from the ME3 campaign ^

Yeah, about that...

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

By the way, did you even watch the clip before linking it? Because I don't think you did. "Be able to shoot more powerful rounds" don't enter into it.

Shepard: "It let's guns fire with more power, and soldiers can pop in a new clip instead of waiting for the gun to cool."

[alhamel94]

would like to point out that im not crying broken lore...
im just wondering why we see things about how collectors break lore and not about the lancer.
also regardless of the thermal clip/not model, and the desperate times we use the old weapons.
there were avengers in me1 and they were more powerful than the lancers, it still doesnt make any sense that the lancer should be anything but an avenger with unlimited ammo. it certainly shouldnt be significantly more powerful the way it is regardless. if the weapon was really that much better they never would have switched.

[Devix]

"The M7-Lancer is a rare collector's item that was introduced shortly after the First Contact War. The Lancer has been refurbished by an unknown master weaponsmith, and it now uses the higher velocity rounds of today's weaponry. It does not need heat sinks, instead utilizing weapon heat-generation from an earlier era. Few of these finely crafted weapons are in existence. "

[RaptorSolutions]

alhamel94 wrote...

would like to point out that im not crying broken lore...
im just wondering why we see things about how collectors break lore and not about the lancer.
also regardless of the thermal clip/not model, and the desperate times we use the old weapons.
there were avengers in me1 and they were more powerful than the lancers, it still doesnt make any sense that the lancer should be anything but an avenger with unlimited ammo. it certainly shouldnt be significantly more powerful the way it is regardless. if the weapon was really that much better they never would have switched.

Cost. I'm assuming the Lancer was significantly more expensive than their replacements. Maybe even higher maintenance costs.

[alhamel94]

RaptorSolutions wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

would like to point out that im not crying broken lore...
im just wondering why we see things about how collectors break lore and not about the lancer.
also regardless of the thermal clip/not model, and the desperate times we use the old weapons.
there were avengers in me1 and they were more powerful than the lancers, it still doesnt make any sense that the lancer should be anything but an avenger with unlimited ammo. it certainly shouldnt be significantly more powerful the way it is regardless. if the weapon was really that much better they never would have switched.

Cost. I'm assuming the Lancer was significantly more expensive than their replacements. Maybe even higher maintenance costs.

not in me1 the avenger was just better than the lancer

[l7986]

If theres anything to complain about, its how in the space of 3 years thermal clips went from an unknown, to Research and Development, to being issued to the militaries then finally being mass produced on a scale that causes everyone to instantly drop the old style weapons.

[RaptorSolutions]

alhamel94 wrote...

RaptorSolutions wrote...

alhamel94 wrote...

would like to point out that im not crying broken lore...
im just wondering why we see things about how collectors break lore and not about the lancer.
also regardless of the thermal clip/not model, and the desperate times we use the old weapons.
there were avengers in me1 and they were more powerful than the lancers, it still doesnt make any sense that the lancer should be anything but an avenger with unlimited ammo. it certainly shouldnt be significantly more powerful the way it is regardless. if the weapon was really that much better they never would have switched.

Cost. I'm assuming the Lancer was significantly more expensive than their replacements. Maybe even higher maintenance costs.

not in me1 the avenger was just better than the lancer

Can't remember. But these Lancers are, as the previous poster linked, apparently these have been reworked by a master gunsmith. Therefore they are only similar to the Lancers of old in name.

[Podboq]

alhamel94 wrote...

would like to point out that im not crying broken lore...
im just wondering why we see things about how collectors break lore and not about the lancer.
also regardless of the thermal clip/not model, and the desperate times we use the old weapons.
there were avengers in me1 and they were more powerful than the lancers, it still doesnt make any sense that the lancer should be anything but an avenger with unlimited ammo. it certainly shouldnt be significantly more powerful the way it is regardless. if the weapon was really that much better they never would have switched.

IT. HAS. BEEN. UPGRADED.