180 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

Shallyah wrote...

If they managed to whitewash irrationally the Geth to the point that some people even feel it's sad that they have to die in Destroy endings, I'm sure they can do the same for the Darkspawn. They just have to retcon manipulated flashbacks of how the darkspawn were being hunted and tortured by the Chantry when they just wanted to keep to themselves and not hurt anyone. Then they were forced to turn themselves to the service of the Archdemon in a desperate attempt for survival.

And it'll all make as little sense as the Geth Consensus mission in ME3, which thousands of players actually bought.

The Geth were always portrayed as having been forced into conflict. The first conversation I had with Tali on the Normandy she told me about the origins of the Geth and the war and she became upset when I said that the Quarians started it by attacking them.

It was considered a huge surprise that they had hostile intentions in the first game because they'd kept to themselves for centuries after butchering the Quarians and driving them off. They were also depicted from the first game as being part of a relatively evolved society complete with its own religious practices.

The same can not be said of the Darkspawn who were initially depicted as mindless savages acting on instinct, and whose image has scarcely been improved by introducing intelligent specimens.

I don't expect the Darkspawn to have an aboutface of this magnitude in the near future.

[HurricaneGinger]

I'd also appreciate it if they weren't the Reapers as well. Meaning, we'd have to convince the templars and mages to join forces to take down the Darkspawn.

[Vortex13]

MichaelStJohn90068 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

From what I understood, only those who the Architect has "freed" are anything more than mindless animals. And judging by the Mother, that freedom doesn't always work out well. I wouldn't mind having a small faction of "awakened" darkspawn as allies, but I doubt we have to worry about them being made completely sympathetic.

I think the whole point of the Awakening expansion was to give a new future for the darkspawn.  From a writing point of view, every game can't be about a Blight.  But if it's possible to free the darkspawn from their hive mind, then you have a whole new potential for enemies and allies.

I can see a sympathetic group of darkspawn that just want to be left alone.  But I can also see an evil character (darkspawn or not) leading them on some kind of crusade.  It would be a great way to keep them as an enemy without having to have an Archdemon or a Blight.

It seems to me that some initial materials I read about DA:I mentioned some kind of evil beyond the politics of the mage/templar war.  So perhaps the darkspawn will be a major part of the story.

Exactly, Awakened Darkspawn have the possiblity of being either incredibly dangerous; we are dealing with an intelligent Darkspan after all, or being a useful ally/party member (playable MP kit for those MP lovers like me).


That is what I loved about DA:A, the possibilities it presents us with offer limitless potential on how to evolve the Darkspawn's character. I want to see more Darkspawn, especially the possiblity of gaining Darkspawn allies. What I don't want to see is the story making excuses for the Darkspawn. 

[Vortex13]

PhantomGinger wrote...

I'd also appreciate it if they weren't the Reapers as well. Meaning, we'd have to convince the templars and mages to join forces to take down the Darkspawn.

The Arch Demons were the ones who drew the most Reaper parallels for me. The Darkspawn horde definitly had an ancient evil vibe about them but nothing as Cuthulu-esque as the Old Gods.

[Vortex13]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Legion in ME2 was one of my favorite characters in the series and changed the Geth dynamic in the game. I don't think I could see DA doing this with a darkspawn. They just seem a bit too feral.

I don't know, I think the writers can incorporate an interesting character in a Darkspawn ally/companion. Something along the lines of Frankinstine's monster, minus the "woe is me, feel sorry for me" bit. A character that is not apart of society, but looking in on it. Such a character wouldn't (I hope) be angry or resentful of Thedas viewing him/her/it as a monster.

I am not interested in a "you are treating me bad, so you should feel bad!" type character (if that makes sense), but rather a character that can dispassionatly and logically see its place in things and operate based on that foundation.

[Goneaviking]

Vortex13 wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Legion in ME2 was one of my favorite characters in the series and changed the Geth dynamic in the game. I don't think I could see DA doing this with a darkspawn. They just seem a bit too feral.

I don't know, I think the writers can incorporate an interesting character in a Darkspawn ally/companion. Something along the lines of Frankinstine's monster, minus the "woe is me, feel sorry for me" bit. A character that is not apart of society, but looking in on it. Such a character wouldn't (I hope) be angry or resentful of Thedas viewing him/her/it as a monster.

I am not interested in a "you are treating me bad, so you should feel bad!" type character (if that makes sense), but rather a character that can dispassionatly and logically see its place in things and operate based on that foundation.

Legion was problematic for some of the same reasons that a darkspawn companion would be problematic.

1) I can't think of a scenario where it makes sense to be able to bring one into a civilised area and for them not to be killed on sight.

2) Legion was too "fluffy" and likeable. It explained things too much and although on one level they made the geth seem more alien, it also made them too identifiable. It should have been a very hard choice putting them above the quarians in ME3, instead it made me feel bad everytime I chose the Quarians over them.

3) The special exception characters always annoy me. That one character that debunks everything you know about the group you're familiar with seemingly for no reason other than "wouldn't it be awesome."

I have no problem with the notion of some intelligent darkspawn faction. I do have a problem with them being anything more than temparary, situational and awkward allies. Their very existence depends on perverting and torturing other races (the broodmothers) and that makes any long term arrangement with them highly problematic.

[Vortex13]

Goneaviking wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...
-snip-

Legion was problematic for some of the same reasons that a darkspawn companion would be problematic. 

1) I can't think of a scenario where it makes sense to be able to bring one into a civilised area and for them not to be killed on sight.

2) Legion was too "fluffy" and likeable. It explained things too much and although on one level they made the geth seem more alien, it also made them too identifiable. It should have been a very hard choice putting them above the quarians in ME3, instead it made me feel bad everytime I chose the Quarians over them.

3) The special exception characters always annoy me. That one character that debunks everything you know about the group you're familiar with seemingly for no reason other than "wouldn't it be awesome."

I have no problem with the notion of some intelligent darkspawn faction. I do have a problem with them being anything more than temparary, situational and awkward allies. Their very existence depends on perverting and torturing other races (the broodmothers) and that makes any long term arrangement with them highly problematic.

Good points, the use of a Darkspawn as an ally while also avoiding "Geth-ifying" it would be no mean feat, on that we can agree. But I still don't feel that such an opertunity should be overlooked.

1. This is true, a Darkspawn would be a big issue if he was walking around the city with the player character. But I think that this could be aliviated somewhat if the Darkspawn wore a concealing cloak or hood about his head, hiding his apperence. You also could consider the weight an Inquisitor would have among Maker fearing folk. To them, there must be some sort of church ordained mission going on, that would preclude such an monster walking the streets. 

After all, when the Warden (if the player chooses) spares the Darkspawn's life the town's folk didn't burn the Warden at the stake or disobey him/her, in fact they even listened (somewhat) when the messenger called for the archers to hold fire so it could deliver the information.

Granted, these are rather unique senarios, but if the Warden could walk around with Justice, who was obviously a spirt possessed corpse, and not be lynched I don't think it would be beyond the realm of possibility that a Darkspawn could travel with an Inquisitor.

2. I feel that most of what you are talking about stems from ME 3, and I would agree, the Rannoch plotline is incredibly one sided (IMO), but as for ME 2 Legion, he never struck me as 'warm and fuzzy'. The information he gives on the Geth offers new perspective on the Geth, but I felt that there was always that freedom in ME 2 to decide your own way; Legion never came across as 'pushy' for his side. Sure you had the whole 'does this unit have a soul?' tidbit, but overall I could see both the Geth and Quarian side of the debate, and not feel like a total jerk if I sided with the Quarians. The fact that the Geth intentionally feed false information to the Extra-net about the star formation looking like a Salarian goddess showed a callus curiosity on the Geth's part, they were a scientist poking and proding us; not very 'cute'.

A Darkspawn could operate in a more extreme version of that dynamic, without becoming cute, or Geth-ified IMO.

3. So would you consider Shale, Sten, Justice, ect. to be exceptional characters? Not intending for this to be a slight against you, I am just curious, because each of those characters offered a viewport into their respective race's workings. This is a common theme though out most Bioware games: Want to learn more about Turians? Here's a Turian squadmate. Curious about the 'good' spirits ? Here's a spirit party member. 

Each of these characters function (at least in someway) as a spokesman for their race, culture, religion, ect. I don't see how a Darkspawn would be any different.

[andrew252]

still would be a bit difficult to be a friend to a race that only interaction topside is to kill pillage and steal the women,like viking but at least the vikings you can have a drink with

[Goneaviking]

Vortex13 wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

snip

Good points, the use of a Darkspawn as an ally while also avoiding "Geth-ifying" it would be no mean feat, on that we can agree. But I still don't feel that such an opertunity should be overlooked.

1. This is true, a Darkspawn would be a big issue if he was walking around the city with the player character. But I think that this could be aliviated somewhat if the Darkspawn wore a concealing cloak or hood about his head, hiding his apperence. You also could consider the weight an Inquisitor would have among Maker fearing folk. To them, there must be some sort of church ordained mission going on, that would preclude such an monster walking the streets. 

After all, when the Warden (if the player chooses) spares the Darkspawn's life the town's folk didn't burn the Warden at the stake or disobey him/her, in fact they even listened (somewhat) when the messenger called for the archers to hold fire so it could deliver the information.

Granted, these are rather unique senarios, but if the Warden could walk around with Justice, who was obviously a spirt possessed corpse, and not be lynched I don't think it would be beyond the realm of possibility that a Darkspawn could travel with an Inquisitor.

2. I feel that most of what you are talking about stems from ME 3, and I would agree, the Rannoch plotline is incredibly one sided (IMO), but as for ME 2 Legion, he never struck me as 'warm and fuzzy'. The information he gives on the Geth offers new perspective on the Geth, but I felt that there was always that freedom in ME 2 to decide your own way; Legion never came across as 'pushy' for his side. Sure you had the whole 'does this unit have a soul?' tidbit, but overall I could see both the Geth and Quarian side of the debate, and not feel like a total jerk if I sided with the Quarians. The fact that the Geth intentionally feed false information to the Extra-net about the star formation looking like a Salarian goddess showed a callus curiosity on the Geth's part, they were a scientist poking and proding us; not very 'cute'.

A Darkspawn could operate in a more extreme version of that dynamic, without becoming cute, or Geth-ified IMO.

3. So would you consider Shale, Sten, Justice, ect. to be exceptional characters? Not intending for this to be a slight against you, I am just curious, because each of those characters offered a viewport into their respective race's workings. This is a common theme though out most Bioware games: Want to learn more about Turians? Here's a Turian squadmate. Curious about the 'good' spirits ? Here's a spirit party member. 

Each of these characters function (at least in someway) as a spokesman for their race, culture, religion, ect. I don't see how a Darkspawn would be any different.

As for the first part, it seems like a lot of effort to go to to justify having a Dark Spawn companion, and it'd have to be an ongoing issue to have any credibility which I'm sure most of us would get sick of pretty quickly.

Second part, Legion went on about how they had no distrust or doubt among its people because they could see what everyone was thinking. Talking about how they basically see themselves as caretakers for the Quarians old home because they don't strictly speaking need to occupy it. It all seemed calculated to make the Geth seem non-threatening.

Third part. Shale IS an exceptional character as the only golem with free will (other than the paragon). Sten's just some officer sent out on a long mission who lost his squad and his sword. I'm sure you see the difference.

Shale's entertaining and all, but she doesn't actually have any culture or whatnot to talk about being that Golems don't have one. Her presence in the game is basically giving you a cool companion for no reason other than it's a cool companion.

I have absolutely no issue with assigning teammates from other groups to provide information about them, it's when those companions by their very nature break all the rules of the setting. Shale does as a one off unique entity. Sten however is representative of his culture. Garrus may have been a disgruntled cop, but he was still an authentic representative of his race who just didn't happen to match the in-game stereotype (even if he match out of game stereotypes).

[grumpymooselion]

I could live without them ever mentioning the darkspawn again. The Mage/Templar conflict, even before it became an all out war, was just more interesting to me all along. Playing a Mage origin in DA:O interested me a lot, and the beginnings of the conflict in DA2 were actually neat for whatever flaw I might find in either game.

[Foolsfolly]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Didn't this kind of already happen in Awakening?

Right?

DA's setting is full of races, organistations, and people that are multifaceted: good in these respects; bad in these. The darkspawn are just orcs. And people have decried them as such from the moment we saw them.

But that's ok! There's nothing wrong with a plague of swollen flesh and steel that periodically appears and destroys kingdoms. That's fun!

I still don't much care for the whole talking Darkspawn thing. The only thing that saved it is that Architect seems to be a nasty being and generally untrustworthy. And every other darkspawn is completely insane. And the Mother is the poster child for why you shouldn't give darkspawn intelligence.

[Reznore57]

Well darkspawn are tainted ...and sort of contagious.
So even if they become decent people ,it's a big problem.
For gameplay reasons , the taint seems less dangerous.In DA:O , our companions never had to worry about it , and in DA2 we had Carver/Bethany.
But if you look at the landscape around Lothering at the beginning of DA2 , you might catch a glimpse of a tiny problem about darkspawn.
Everything around them sort of ...die.

[grumpymooselion]

It's of note that there were seven main dragons known as the Old Gods. There have been five blights, each connected to the Darkspawn finding and tainting them through one means, or another. The first four from who knows, and the fifth from the architect's failed experiment that led to DA:O's blight. There are two Dragons left, and thus two potential blights left to occur, if we discount lesser Dragons from being archdemons upon becoming tainted.

Regardless it's been suggested that the Darkspawn, if there were no more Old Gods, could obtain a higher level of sentience because the call would stop driving them to find the Old Gods beneath the ground and, as a result, tainting them. We already have exceptional cases of darkspawn that were somewhat intelligent, and, it's been further suggested that darkspawn obtaining intelligence would actually become more of a threat than darkspawn led by an archdemon in a blight.

So I don't see them becoming friendly Geth . . . if anything, it sounds like, they could potentially become more dangerous than ever.

-

In addition Dwarves view blights as a respite from attacks. I'm curious if we see seven blights come and go . . . if certain Dwarves (seriously, play DA:O's Dwarf Noble origin, the political intrigue and backstabbing is glorious) wouldn't try and find a way to cause further Blights or Blight-like circumstances to gain some respite beyond the seventh blight.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 05 mars 2013 - 11:55 .

[Goneaviking]

Darkspawn aren't Orcs, they're Tyranids. You can bargain with Orcs, Tyranid just devour everything in their path and reshape it in their own image.

[Vortex13]

Goneaviking wrote...

Darkspawn aren't Orcs, they're Tyranids. You can bargain with Orcs, Tyranid just devour everything in their path and reshape it in their own image.

Very true (love the WH40K parallel) of the un-Awakened Darkspawn. I agree that there is no reasoning with them, they must be stopped, but I still submit that the Awakened Darkspawn are different. Their individual nature and capacity for choice (good or bad) is what seperates them from regular Darkspawn. 

Even the Tyranids, if seperated from the hive mind, can become part of a planet's ecosystem without devouring everything; the theory of the flora and fauna on the planet Catachan (sp?) being part of a failed invasion being an example. Does the separation from the Hive Mind make the Tyranids any less dangerous? No, but it does prove that even they can exist without destroying everything.

[Vortex13]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I still don't much care for the whole talking Darkspawn thing. The only thing that saved it is that Architect seems to be a nasty being and generally untrustworthy. And every other darkspawn is completely insane. And the Mother is the poster child for why you shouldn't give darkspawn intelligence.

I agree that the Architect is VERY untrustworthy, I always got the feeling that there was something he wasn't telling us, not to mention the horrific 'grand plan' he had in DA: The Calling. 

Anyway, I wouldn't called the Mother the poster child of Awakened Darkspawn, I would call her the worst case senario. Just because the Darkspawn are intelligent doesn't mean that they are automatically good; I get that, and I would be adimently against such a notion if it was ever included in the storyline. You have the possiblity of going either way with Awakened Darkspawn, like I said in my OP, the notion of intelligent Darkspawn is both terrifying and awesome. 

On one hand you have the Mother, and all the horrific acts she committed, and on the other hand you have (going with my trusty fallback here) the Darksapwn Messenger that if spared, ends up helping other non-Darkspawn people. Blanket assumptions won't work here (IMO).

Modifié par Vortex13, 05 mars 2013 - 03:56 .

[Vortex13]

Goneaviking wrote...

As for the first part, it seems like a lot of effort to go to to justify having a Dark Spawn companion, and it'd have to be an ongoing issue to have any credibility which I'm sure most of us would get sick of pretty quickly.

Second part, Legion went on about how they had no distrust or doubt among its people because they could see what everyone was thinking. Talking about how they basically see themselves as caretakers for the Quarians old home because they don't strictly speaking need to occupy it. It all seemed calculated to make the Geth seem non-threatening.

Third part. Shale IS an exceptional character as the only golem with free will (other than the paragon). Sten's just some officer sent out on a long mission who lost his squad and his sword. I'm sure you see the difference.

Shale's entertaining and all, but she doesn't actually have any culture or whatnot to talk about being that Golems don't have one. Her presence in the game is basically giving you a cool companion for no reason other than it's a cool companion.

I have absolutely no issue with assigning teammates from other groups to provide information about them, it's when those companions by their very nature break all the rules of the setting. Shale does as a one off unique entity. Sten however is representative of his culture. Garrus may have been a disgruntled cop, but he was still an authentic representative of his race who just didn't happen to match the in-game stereotype (even if he match out of game stereotypes).

1. Yes that is true. I never said my suggestions were ideal, just something I came up with, but I would still say that the power of the Inquisitor, could create enough of a buffer for a little suspension of disbelief. I would imagine you might disagree, but for me, if it's good enough for Justice, then its good enough for a potential Darkspawn ally.

2. Another good point, but for me personally, if that would have been the limit of the whitewashing I could have dealt with it. Like you said earlier, it made the Geth seem more alien, kinda like a watered down version of orange/blue morality (was how I looked at t), and I enjoyed that. I would even say that up until the SM, Legion had a sense of superiority about him, if you look at his references and explanations the the Geth as a whole, they came across more as "We are better than you, because of (insert topic being discussed here)".

3. I guess this would be a matter of what I like vs what you like. I can see your points about Shale, but for me, I enjoy awesome companions. Now that doesn't mean that I would ignore a poorly written character, far from it; I would prefer NO Darkspawn allies/companions if the story was going to 'pull a Geth' with them. But like I have said, I enjoy the non-human characters (and for the record: I consider Elves and Dwarves humans; humans with pointy ears and short bearded, or not bearded humans, but still humans). I personally enjoyed Shale and Legion more then Alistar, and Miranda for example. Not because I disliked their characters, but Because I just find the non-humans more interesting (I am a human IRL 24/7, so to me why would I focus all of my attention on something I already am?).

[Vortex13]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well darkspawn are tainted ...and sort of contagious.
So even if they become decent people ,it's a big problem.
For gameplay reasons , the taint seems less dangerous.In DA:O , our companions never had to worry about it , and in DA2 we had Carver/Bethany.
But if you look at the landscape around Lothering at the beginning of DA2 , you might catch a glimpse of a tiny problem about darkspawn.
Everything around them sort of ...dies.

Tainted yes, but not as contagious as you are saying it is (IMO). I always contributed the starting area of DA 2 to the brown template used for most of the game.

The Taint is very deadly to those it infects, but no more contagious then HIV/Aids is with us, if you get Darkspawn bodily fluids in you eyes/mouth/cuts then yes you would be infected. I don't buy the notion that Darkspawn standing out in a field (just standing mind you, not fighting, dying, and bleeding all over the place, as what was depicted in the games) would infect and destroy all of Thedas.

If that were the case then, the world NEVER should have been able to recover after the First Blight, since the Darkspawn were pretty much everywhere. Also look at the Return to Ostigar (sp?) DLC, the Darkspawn have complete control over that area, and it still has (plant) life/corrupted.

[legbamel]

I actually loved how Shepard's experience of the Geth came full circle, as did the group themselves. The first thing Tali tells you is that the Quarians tried to destroy the Geth because one asked if he had a soul. Then it's the last thing Legion asks you, potentially before you destroy the entire "species". For me, that was their question all along.

As for the Geth, most of my observations, particularly the contagion of the Taint and the Broodmothers, have already been covered as reasons for them having built-in limits to people's ability to sympathize with them.

[Leoroc]

People in the real world can't even accept people with different skin color, there are those in thus thread suggesting the Denerim market will gladly admit psychotic walking corpses!

[Vortex13]

legbamel wrote...

As for the Darkspawn, most of my observations, particularly the contagion of the Taint and the Broodmothers, have already been covered as reasons for them having built-in limits to people's ability to sympathize with them.

This is true, and I applaud the writers for setting up the DA universe in such a 'dark' view on things. I am probably just over sensitive after the events of the Rannoch plotline in ME 3, but the point I am trying to make is that make someone/something an ally DOES NOT mean make them sympathetic, or misunderstood. 

Like you said, the Darkspawn lore would have built in safety features to prevent a "Gethification" of the Darkspawn, so I shouldn't have anything to worry about. 

I would love to see Awakened Darkspawn as possible allies, though.

[Goneaviking]

Vortex13 wrote...

[snip]

3. I guess this would be a matter of what I like vs what you like. I can see your points about Shale, but for me, I enjoy awesome companions. Now that doesn't mean that I would ignore a poorly written character, far from it; I would prefer NO Darkspawn allies/companions if the story was going to 'pull a Geth' with them. But like I have said, I enjoy the non-human characters (and for the record: I consider Elves and Dwarves humans; humans with pointy ears and short bearded, or not bearded humans, but still humans). I personally enjoyed Shale and Legion more then Alistar, and Miranda for example. Not because I disliked their characters, but Because I just find the non-humans more interesting (I am a human IRL 24/7, so to me why would I focus all of my attention on something I already am?).

I like Shale, it was well written and more or less justified in it's exception to the rule (i.e. mysterious experiments broke the link to its command rod and freed him from its control). But it was also off to the side and irrelevant from the larger story, the first time I played the game I didn't activate the DLC to utilise it and so I could see how little it contributed to the story. In short it doesn't challenge immersion.

Justice didn't provoke any strong feelings in me either way. It was a spirit you encountered doing it's own thing in the Fade, and then had the misfortune of being expelled into hostile territory and having to make do with its situation. Anders annoyed me, in part because he just seemed the anti-Fenris, but also because the merging was utterly unnecessary and if anything watered down the point they seemed to be making with the character - in the same way the lyrium sword watered down Meredith's ideological slide.

Legion added to the story, and its exception (having extra programs inside the platform which upped his performance and intelligence) was minor enough to be excused and fitted well enough within the lore. He added a great deal to the storyline and clarified matters with the geth-reaper alliance; it's fair to say that without introducing the character there would have been no reason to deal with the geth in any way other than violent confrontation.

Javik on the other hand is a bad character. I enjoy him, it's an entertaining diversion having a companion around who just trolls anyone that will listen, but he's irrelevant to the story and breaks the rules like Shale does but in a glaring and nonsensical way. The protheans are dead, then miraculously they aren't and the last one joins a quest to save the universe despite being completely unnecessary to the plot. It's like a remake of Hawk the Slayer, and it undermines immersion.

I like interesting characters, and have nothing against unique and alien ones. But if they're going to break the rules they should do it in ways that are easily glossed over, and should make sense within the context of the story at hand. Should they ever decide to make a darkspawn companion, they'd best have a reason that makes for a coherent storyline rather than be playing for the awesome factor.