180 réponses à ce sujet

[Gallimatia]

krul2k wrote...

sooo do darkspawn have souls?

Darkspawn have souls. Geth don't have souls. Quarians don't have souls. Humans have souls in the DA universe but not in the Mass Effect one.

[Vortex13]

hazarkazra wrote...

Well, first off let me say that most of what I said are my reasoning behind not trusting intelligent Darkspawn might be partly based on bias, because I personally wouldn't give the Darkspawn any benefit of the doubt.

I mean, the Architect is the 'nicest' Darkspawn so far and he murdered most of a fort and sees it as a tragic communication mistake, then took you prisoner as a way of 'communicating' and when you wanted to leave sends two dragons to kill you. Every single choice he has ever made was pretty much a horrible one. While this is ofcourse very tragic, to me it also proves that the Darkspawn seems to pretty awful at functioning at the most basic level. I like them that way though. It's what made Awakening so interesting. Am I willing to doom a race because they are horrible at making decisions or do I value all life regardless? It's a kill one to save a thousand on a grand scale.

I think that charm of the awakened darkspawn would have to dissapear if you make a companion out of them. As you said, you would have to 'gethify' them for it to work. I think it would be better to just let them be part of a quest line or something like that. Maybe even a faction. But a companion would be too much.

You make good points, and I would be lying if I said my interest in the Darkspawn didn't have an impact on how I would treat intelligent ones.

I wouldn't call the Architect 'nice' so much as manipulative, its obvious from the Calling that he has a habit of not telling the truth, or at least the whole truth. I did spare him in my game, but it wasn't because I agree with him, rather a meta gaming decision. Anyway, I would never give the enitre Darkspawn race a pass because of the actions of one good Awakened any more then I would condem all of humanity based on the actions of a few bandits. 

I would be the first one to say no to a Darkspawn compainion if having said companion would require 'Gethifying' it and/or the Darkspawn race, but I would like to see if Bioware could create a party member without such qualities; if the moral quandary of DA:O and DA:A are any indicator I would say that it is possible. Even failing that, I would think that a playable Darkspawn MP character is still possible (I really would like to see the notion of 'good' Darkspawn indiviuals developed further) considering how the messenger would fight with the Warden to help liberate Ameranthie.

[RepHope]

I think a better comparison would be don't turn the Darkspawn into the reapers. " Yo dawg I hear you don't wont to be killed by monsters, so I made some monsters to kill u every 50,000 years so u won't be killed by monsters

[Vortex13]

RepHope wrote...

I think a better comparison would be don't turn the Darkspawn into the reapers. " Yo dawg I hear you don't wont to be killed by monsters, so I made some monsters to kill u every 50,000 years so u won't be killed by monsters

No the Darkspawn are more akin to the Geth; the Old Gods/Arch Demons are the Reapers.

I will agree that I wouldn't want to see a 'master mind' with a convoulted motivation behind everything the Old Gods and their Blights did though.

I prefer them being a timeless force, they don't have any grand plan in the works for our benifit, they simply are. Much like the Nothing of the Never Ending Story, or the (Pre-Warded) CTan of WH40K, or the antagonists of the Dead space series, the Old Gods' motivation (IMO) needs to be simple, summed up in one word: Destruction (for example).

Regular, unawakened Darkspawn are like the Collectors, soulless husks that the Arch Demon can 'assume control' of in the event that it is killed by a non-Grey Warden. The Awakened Darkspawn are like the Geth (before they were whitewashed), seen as horrible monsters (not a fact that they deny or try to hide) but capable of choice, good or bad.

[Beerfish]

Hawke Commander, we have reached a consensus. A faction of the darkspawn we call the heretics are the real trouble makers

[MKDAWUSS]

krul2k wrote...

sooo do darkspawn have souls?

I don't think so. I think that was part of the premise of the DR.

[Vortex13]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

krul2k wrote...

sooo do darkspawn have souls?

I don't think so. I think that was part of the premise of the DR.

Hmm... you know that makes me wonder, can an Awakended still be possessed by an Arch Demon?

I mean normally if a non-Grey Warden kills the tainted dragon, it mearly 'assumes control' of a nearby Darkspawn and is reborn, but what if that Darkspawn is Awakened? Would we have a even more intelligent arch demon to deal with? 

I wonder if the Children of the Mother could be possessed as well, and what the resulting possession would yield.

[Vortex13]

Little bit of a self necro here, but I just had an engaging conversation with my friend about the Mages and their powers and potential dangers they present and the ensuing conversation brought up the Darkspawn and the complexities that the Awakened through into the mix, and my friend had an interesting opinion on the matter that I think is deserving of discussion here on the forums.

Anyway, my friend is an avid defender of the Mages' freedom (personally I think he just likes playing Devil's Advocate), the mere notion of a Circle is abhorant to him and he feels that one should not judge a Mage based on what they might do, Templars are evil, ect. you get the idea. Now where the discussion got interesting (and why I feel it is a valid point to the topic at hand) is when I brought up the possiblity of Darkspawn as allies.

"Darkspawn don't deserve consideration",my friend said, "they are a danger to everything around them because of the Taint, and unlike small groups of mages who abused their power (Tevinter) ALL Darkspawn are hostile."

I found this point interesting because, from where I am standing, such an opinion seems to be a double standard. A single Mage can cause far more potential destruction then a single Darkspawn can. Wynne's recounting of how she set the bully's hair on fire, because she got mad is a prime example. Sure the Taint is contagious, but only if you come into direct contact with a carrier of it; and even then you have varying degrees of danger (getting Tainted blood in an open wound vs. shaking a Darkspawn's hand for example). Mages though, they can kill you from across the room just by looking at you, and that is not even counting the dangers of possession.

Now don't misunderstand me, I am not an "All Mages must be Tranquil!" proponent; in fact my primary playthrough of DA 2 had Hawke side with the Mages, but I do find it interesting that some would consider Mages as 'safer' than Awakened Darkspawn. IMO these two groups invoke the same underlying themes, what is said for one can be said of the other.

P.S. This does not mean that I want to see the Darkspawn 'brought into' society or 'Geth-ified', I am just curious about this supposed double standard.

[Annihilator27]

Anyone think the Architect will return?

[Vortex13]

Annihilator27 wrote...

Anyone think the Architect will return?

I would think so, seeing as how he was pretty vital to the Awakening expansion and he is alluded to in DA 2 by Nathanel. 

Now I would really like to see the Messenger Disciple show up, as he was far more interesting to me, and one of major factors in my creation of this topic.

[Vortex13]

Surely I can't be the only one who has made the: "Awakened Darkspawn as a parallel to Mages" connection.

[In Exile]

Vortex13 wrote...

Surely I can't be the only one who has made the: "Awakened Darkspawn as a parallel to Mages" connection.

Mages infect everyone around them with a virulent disease, propagate through rape and represent a threat greater than a blight?

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Surely I can't be the only one who has made the: "Awakened Darkspawn as a parallel to Mages" connection.

Mages infect everyone around them with a virulent disease, propagate through rape and represent a threat greater than a blight?

Well, if they go around turning into Flesh Golems (which are currently rampaging through the Deep Roads, if Origins is to be believed), then yes.

Otherwise, no, mostly. 

[In Exile]

The funny thing is, the darkspawn do represent an interest moral dillema that parallels a particular conflict in DA:O (or at least, could parallel that):

Humans vs. Elves.

Imagine that the dalish's (pretty racist) beliefs about the quickening are true, i.e., the mere existence of humans was enough to make elves mortal. Now, imagine that there's no real way for the dalish to isolate themselves enough to actually regain that immortality (because that's what happened).

Well, now you've got a situation where the existence of humans is antithetical to the existence of elves. So you might say: if darkspawn are the very antithetical existence to life, what about humans for elves? If the elves beliefs were true, would elves be justified in calling for genocide?

The answer (IMO) in that case would still be that there are very few darkspawn that are actually sentient in that way, so the moral dillema isn't there. But that's what makes the whole awakening thing something non-darkspawn have to elimiante at all costs: because the alternative is probably  a pretty terrible kind of genocide.

[Vortex13]

BlueMagitek wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Surely I can't be the only one who has made the: "Awakened Darkspawn as a parallel to Mages" connection.

Mages infect everyone around them with a virulent disease, propagate through rape and represent a threat greater than a blight?

Well, if they go around turning into Flesh Golems (which are currently rampaging through the Deep Roads, if Origins is to be believed), then yes.

Otherwise, no, mostly.  

Regular Darkspawn yes, but my original post was concerning Awakened Darkspawn. The Taint is dangerous yes, but like I said earlier, a Darkspawn can't kill you from across the room by looking at you; see Wynne and her story about catching the bully's head on fire for a prime example.

My point is that saying one is Pro Mage: Mages deserve freedom, you can't condem them on something they MIGHT do, ect. but then saying that Awakened Darkspawn can't be trusted because of what they are is a double standard. Both platforms are utilizing the same underlying themes.

[In Exile]

Vortex13 wrote...
a Darkspawn can't kill you from across the room by looking at you; see Wynne and her story about catching the bully's head on fire for a prime example.

Umm... darkspawn get mages, in case you didn't know. They're really into bondage (apparently).

My point is that saying one is Pro Mage: Mages deserve freedom, you can't condem them on something they MIGHT do, ect. but then saying that Awakened Darkspawn can't be trusted because of what they are is a double standard. Both platforms are utilizing the same underlying themes.

No, see, mages deserve freedom because oppression is bad. Mages also don't poison you just by existing next to you, and mages can procreate without raping anyone. Darkspawn can't do either. It's not even close to the same thing.

Modifié par In Exile, 18 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[Vortex13]

In Exile wrote...

The funny thing is, the darkspawn do represent an interest moral dillema that parallels a particular conflict in DA:O (or at least, could parallel that):

Humans vs. Elves.

Imagine that the dalish's (pretty racist) beliefs about the quickening are true, i.e., the mere existence of humans was enough to make elves mortal. Now, imagine that there's no real way for the dalish to isolate themselves enough to actually regain that immortality (because that's what happened).

Well, now you've got a situation where the existence of humans is antithetical to the existence of elves. So you might say: if darkspawn are the very antithetical existence to life, what about humans for elves? If the elves beliefs were true, would elves be justified in calling for genocide?

The answer (IMO) in that case would still be that there are very few darkspawn that are actually sentient in that way, so the moral dillema isn't there. But that's what makes the whole awakening thing something non-darkspawn have to elimiante at all costs: because the alternative is probably  a pretty terrible kind of genocide.

Very good point, I never thought to draw that similarity. The moral quandary of both situations is very grey (Something I applaude the DA writers for), but I would still say that an elf's attempt to exterminate all human life would be similar (far more extreme granted) to the people of Thedas killing all Awakened Darkspawn because of what they are/represent. 

Please note that I am not calling all Darkspawn life sacred; in fact I would consider the Awakened to be a different species of Darkspawn all together. Un-Awakened Darkspawn ARE a threat, and MUST be stopped no question; in fact I would not hesitate to kill all the Un-Awakened if given the chance. But when you are dealing with Awakened Darkspawn then it gets tricky; dealing with sentience and all that. If all Darkspawn; whether Awakened or not; were evil no matter what then killing them would be a no brainer, but they are not. Yes, the Mother was evil, yes her followers were evil, but the Messenger wasn't (depending on your opinion of him the Architect wasn't either, but I still don't trust him); it is this possiblity of benevolence that makes blanket assumptions about them incorrect. 

Now, if the situation was a matter of numbers; kill one person to save a thousand; then yes the majority would win out. If all sentient life is equal then more sentient life is worth more then a lesser amount of life.

[In Exile]

Vortex13 wrote...
 Un-Awakened Darkspawn ARE a threat, and MUST be stopped no question; in fact I would not hesitate to kill all the Un-Awakened if given the chance. But when you are dealing with Awakened Darkspawn then it gets tricky; dealing with sentience and all that. If all Darkspawn; whether Awakened or not; were evil no matter what then killing them would be a no brainer, but they are not. Yes, the Mother was evil, yes her followers were evil, but the Messenger wasn't (depending on your opinion of him the Architect wasn't either, but I still don't trust him); it is this possiblity of benevolence that makes blanket assumptions about them incorrect.  

Awakened darkspawn are a much, much bigger threat than the unawakened darkspawn. What makes a blight so dangerous? The archdemon that leads them.But without an archdemon, the horde breaks. It does the thinking for them (mostly).

But Awakened darkspawn are intelligent. They have tactics. They can plan. The Blight would overrun Thedas in a heartbeat, because there would be absolutely nothing to stop or hold the darkspawn back. 

Now, if the situation was a matter of numbers; kill one person to save a thousand; then yes the majority would win out. If all sentient life is equal then more sentient life is worth more then a lesser amount of life.

It's not about that. There's no middle ground here. If the darkspawn exist, they'll poison the land and rape non-darkspawn, mutating them into monsters in a fate that's clearly worse than death. 

There's just no middle ground.

[Vortex13]

In Exile wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...
a Darkspawn can't kill you from across the room by looking at you; see Wynne and her story about catching the bully's head on fire for a prime example.

Umm... darkspawn get mages, in case you didn't know. They're really into bondage (apparently).

My point is that saying one is Pro Mage: Mages deserve freedom, you can't condem them on something they MIGHT do, ect. but then saying that Awakened Darkspawn can't be trusted because of what they are is a double standard. Both platforms are utilizing the same underlying themes.

No, see, mages deserve freedom because oppression is bad. Mages also don't poison you just by existing next to you, and mages can procreate without raping anyone. Darkspawn can't do either. It's not even close to the same thing.

1. Yes, Darkspawn have Emissaries but they are the same thing as Non-Darkspawn Mages in that they can kill you with magic. If anything the fact that Darkspawn DO have Mages would be perfect examples of the deadly potential ANY Mage would have. An emmisary is only (and I use the word losely) as dangerous as a regular Mage, yes they would have the Taint as well, but when considering the amount of destruction an emissary could cause vs a non-Darkspawn Mage they are the same.

2. Darkspawn have the Taint, but Mages have the threat of Demon possession, and Demons can posses non-Mages as well, so technically both groups have a potential for spreading a plague; Ghouls vs Abominations. Also I am not speaking of all Darkspan in my comparison ONLY the Awakened.

Who says an Awakened would have to rape others to procreate? Darkspawn are functionally immortal anyway so why would a sentient Darkspawn even want to procreate?

Mages are opressed because of the dangers they pose and the assumption of what they might do. Killing all Awakened on sight because of what they are is no different (IMO).

[Vortex13]

In Exile wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...
 Un-Awakened Darkspawn ARE a threat, and MUST be stopped no question; in fact I would not hesitate to kill all the Un-Awakened if given the chance. But when you are dealing with Awakened Darkspawn then it gets tricky; dealing with sentience and all that. If all Darkspawn; whether Awakened or not; were evil no matter what then killing them would be a no brainer, but they are not. Yes, the Mother was evil, yes her followers were evil, but the Messenger wasn't (depending on your opinion of him the Architect wasn't either, but I still don't trust him); it is this possiblity of benevolence that makes blanket assumptions about them incorrect.  

Awakened darkspawn are a much, much bigger threat than the unawakened darkspawn. What makes a blight so dangerous? The archdemon that leads them.But without an archdemon, the horde breaks. It does the thinking for them (mostly).

But Awakened darkspawn are intelligent. They have tactics. They can plan. The Blight would overrun Thedas in a heartbeat, because there would be absolutely nothing to stop or hold the darkspawn back. 

Now, if the situation was a matter of numbers; kill one person to save a thousand; then yes the majority would win out. If all sentient life is equal then more sentient life is worth more then a lesser amount of life.

It's not about that. There's no middle ground here. If the darkspawn exist, they'll poison the land and rape non-darkspawn, mutating them into monsters in a fate that's clearly worse than death. 

There's just no middle ground.

1. Oh I agree. I have said many times in this topic that intelligent Darkspawn are both terrifying and interesting. An evil Awakened (like the Mother) could lead a far more destructive Blight then an Arch Demon could, especially if said Awakened had intelligent generals and advisors to help (which the Mother did), no question; but where I disagree is the assumption that that will always and inevitably happen. 

The Messenger Disciple (should you spare him) disproves this notion, the fact that you have a precidence of Awakened Darkspawn being good or bad means that an Awakened lead Blight is not destined to happen; more likely granted, but not absolute. On an idividual basis Awakened are like the other races of Thedas, do you condem all humans or Qunari to die because of the actions of a few bandits? Yes, the Mother is the poster child of what you describe, but she is not the entirety of the Awakened population or mindset.

2. This I don't buy. Oh I don't deny that such a thing could happen, but if the Darkspawn's mear presence condemns Thedas to die then why is everyone still alive? I mean Darkspawn have been in the world of Thedas for thousands of years and they haven't corrupted it. Even the Dwarves are still around despite living next door to the things. If what you say is true then Thedas NEVER should have been able to recover from the First Blight, the Darkspawn where everywhere and they were running roughshot over everybody for 200 years before the Grey Wardens showed up.

[Nightdragon8]

mickey111 wrote...

Darkspawn: cursed by the maker for reasons explained in a 7 minuteintroductory video. They're created in a similar way as the Reaper husks, and you've got to kill them or else they'll kill the world for some garbage reason.

Geth: what the OP said.

The Geth are obviously way more interesting.

Still, I'd enjoy a prequel to Dragon Age. An origin story of the darkspawn and how all that **** went down at the golden city. Would be fun to see something like that based around the theme of "humans are bad and should feel bad".

from what I understand they already did it... in Dragon Age: Awakening.

[Fast Jimmy]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

Darkspawn: cursed by the maker for reasons explained in a 7 minuteintroductory video. They're created in a similar way as the Reaper husks, and you've got to kill them or else they'll kill the world for some garbage reason.

Geth: what the OP said.

The Geth are obviously way more interesting.

Still, I'd enjoy a prequel to Dragon Age. An origin story of the darkspawn and how all that **** went down at the golden city. Would be fun to see something like that based around the theme of "humans are bad and should feel bad".

from what I understand they already did it... in Dragon Age: Awakening.

...eh. The Architect had (bizarre) reasons for doing what he did, but most of the Darkspawn also despised being sentient. It would seem it was a removal of their natural state to be cut off from the song of the Archdemons and being something other than mindless thralls that seek nothing but destruction. In that light, Awakneing more or less proved that though the Darkspawn have the potential to be more complex beings, they do not prefer it (on the whole).

[Vortex13]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

...eh. The Architect had (bizarre) reasons for doing what he did, but most of the Darkspawn also despised being sentient. It would seem it was a removal of their natural state to be cut off from the song of the Archdemons and being something other than mindless thralls that seek nothing but destruction. In that light, Awakneing more or less proved that though the Darkspawn have the potential to be more complex beings, they do not prefer it (on the whole).

Thats true. Most people don't like change.

[In Exile]

Vortex13 wrote...
The Messenger Disciple (should you spare him) disproves this notion, the fact that you have a precidence of Awakened Darkspawn being good or bad means that an Awakened lead Blight is not destined to happen; more likely granted, but not absolute.

What? He doesn't do that at all. He literally goes around spreading the blight. The people he saved that are infected are going to die a slow, painful death while serving the darkspawn in the deep roads, and any women will eventually become brood mother.

He completely proves the point because he actually isn't all that bad and will still cause way more harm than good, by himself, forever.

2. This I don't buy. Oh I don't deny that such a thing could happen, but if the Darkspawn's mear presence condemns Thedas to die then why is everyone still alive?

Because the darkspawn corruption doesn't erupt on the surface. DA:O failed 100% at showing this, but the Blight is a disease. It ravages the land. That's why the sky over Denerim (in the final battle) is that weird red colour. You're not fighting at night. You're dealing with the sky being blotted out.

What do you think bereskans are? They're the monstrous mutation of animals infested with the blight. Just read it up on the DA wiki.

I mean Darkspawn have been in the world of Thedas for thousands of years and they haven't corrupted it. Even the Dwarves are still around despite living next door to the things. If what you say is true then Thedas NEVER should have been able to recover from the First Blight, the Darkspawn where everywhere and they were running roughshot over everybody for 200 years before the Grey Wardens showed up.

The Anderfells didn't recover. There are whole areas that are basically dead wasteland. It took a century to recover from the blight - that's what everyone talks about. The darkspawn retreating makes the disease go away, but this is 100% confirmed lore. 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 avril 2013 - 03:09 .