180 réponses à ce sujet

[Lokiwithrope]

I can imagine Lightspawn (my take on a darkspawn companion) seeing himself as a danger to everyone else and maybe at the end of the journey, when all darkspawn are eradicated, he would accept death. Maybe he was the one Disciple who accepted the reality. He and his people are a constant threat to others. That philosophy is selfless, in and on itself. The possibilities for a character like this are... exciting.

Modifié par Lokiwithrope, 15 juin 2013 - 02:42 .

[Vortex13]

Updated the OP in light of the new details that have been revealed.

Discuss.

[Angrywolves]

No.

[Vortex13]

Angrywolves wrote...

No.

Any reason why this would be a no? The lore has several examples of how it could work, as far as I see it, recruiting Darkspawn allies would be no more outlandish than having Cole as an ally/agent.

[DeinonSlayer]

You have my full support.

[Steelcan]

Do you have a specific idea for who would be the "face" of the darkspawn?

The Architect would work but he could be dead.

And also, thoughts on the concept art for the Old Gods' prisons?



The caption says that we will be drawn to them, perhaps in a similar way to the darkspawn?

Modifié par Steelcan, 22 août 2013 - 01:21 .

[Magdalena11]

No.

My Warden-Commander nearly died defeating the Archdemon the Architect's bumbling efforts unleashed on Ferelden. And he was the most intelligent of the Children. In addition to carrying the Taint, which is spread by close contact and corrupts the area darkspawn inhabit, their efforts are doomed from the start. Perhaps the messenger in Awakenings did succeed in delivering his message and follow through if you chose to enlist his aid in protecting Amaranthine but that doesn't mean that even an "awakened" darkspawn would make a good ally.

If my Inquisitor was Ferelden there would be no way I would accept such an ally. If my Inquisitor was Orlesian, perhaps, but even then Orlais bore the brunt of one of the blights and I don't see cultural memories dying away so quickly.

Again, no.

Bringing up Cole is a good point.  Already, the Inquisitor possibly has one ally (if not companion) who is morally ambiguous.  I don't need any more.

Modifié par Magdalena11, 22 août 2013 - 01:25 .

[Vortex13]

Steelcan wrote...

Do you have a specific idea for who would be the "face" of the darkspawn?

The Architect would work but he could be dead.

And also, thoughts on the concept art for the Old Gods' prisons?



The caption says that we will be drawn to them, perhaps in a similar way to the darkspawn?

Personally my idea for a 'face' of the Awakened would be a Disciple like the Messenger outside Amaranthie (sp?). I never really liked the Architect, or Corphyeus not only because of what they did in their respective Expansion/DLC but I just personally never really cared for having an 'ubermench' version of something being the ONLY figurehead. Granted the Awakened are already 'super Darkspawn' but only in terms of individuality, I liked how the Messenger was (more or less) an intelligent Hurlock; a common man so to speak.

I mean Varric isn't some higher form of dwarf, anymore than Cassandra is a highly evolved human, I don't see why a 'regular joe' Disciple can't be the leader of a tribe of Awakened, or one of the many 'Agents' that our Inquisitor can recruit.

As for the concept art; I enjoyed it and the Deep Roads one, makes me think that there is something powerful (apart from the Old God) about these prisons. My own pet theory is that the Darkspawn are essentially 'Anti-Fade' beings; what with their non reliance on the Fade for magic and the overall incomprehension of the Fade (outside of scholastic information) and of the Fade Spirits' unfamiliarity with the Disciple that gets pulled in with you in Awakening. My guess is that our Inquisitor may be able to use this to help mend the Tear.

[Melca36]

No offense but I really have zero interest in this and I hope the writer/developers don't ruin the lore and do this

[Vortex13]

Magdalena11 wrote...

No.

My Warden-Commander nearly died defeating the Archdemon the Architect's bumbling efforts unleashed on Ferelden. And he was the most intelligent of the Children. In addition to carrying the Taint, which is spread by close contact and corrupts the area darkspawn inhabit, their efforts are doomed from the start. Perhaps the messenger in Awakenings did succeed in delivering his message and follow through if you chose to enlist his aid in protecting Amaranthine but that doesn't mean that even an "awakened" darkspawn would make a good ally.

If my Inquisitor was Ferelden there would be no way I would accept such an ally. If my Inquisitor was Orlesian, perhaps, but even then Orlais bore the brunt of one of the blights and I don't see cultural memories dying away so quickly.

Again, no.

Bringing up Cole is a good point.  Already, the Inquisitor possibly has one ally (if not companion) who is morally ambiguous.  I don't need any more.

I agree that the un-Awakened Darkspawn are a threat, and I would never consider even using them as cannon fodder in combating my enemy. Also the Architect is an idiot, or a scheming mastermind , either scenario is bad news.

Whether you killed the Architect or not, there are still Awakened out there, its canon. Obviously this can be a terrifying prospect (case in point The Mother) but you are going to have intelligent Darkspawn running around regardless. I like to operate under the possibility of 'agreeable' Awakened (good is too generous a term) being out there. And if there are Darkspawn capable of assisting the player (case in point the Messenger) then who would be better in countering the 'bad' Darkspawn?

The Taint would be a problem, but we have canon lore examples, in both The Calling, and Awakening, that prove an Awakened Darkspawn can control his corruption to a degree that it doesn't seep into the surrounding area and/or kill non-Darkspawn allies/associates (case in point the Qunari merchant in the Silverite mines in Awakening). Even failing that The Calling has characters using magical items to ward off the effects of the Taint so assuming that Darkspawn allies would automatically = everyone dies would be incorrect (IMO) simply based on the lore examples given.

I'm not talking about some random Disciple that the Inquisitor finds in the Deep Roads and says "Come be my Agent!", I am talking about an individual (or group) that is actively seeking interaction with non-Darkspawn, and logic dictates that said person (or group) would take precautions to avoid spreading the Taint.

Animosity is to be expected (in fact I would put any scenario where the Darkspawn are totally accepted under the 'Pulling a Geth' category), but we are in a desperate situation in DA:I. The normal channels of aid are cut off or too pre-occupied to help, alternative means would start to become priority in a world where demons are raining from the sky.
 
If the Inquisitor can seek help from the Tevinter Imperium, or even the Qunari, I say that Darkspawn assistance is not out of the question. Awakened aren't bound by the Old Gods, they don't automatically rape, pillage and kill everything in sight (they can, but its a conscious decision). I mean the Qunari believe that anyone not following the Qun must convert or die, and Tevinter actively use slave labor and human sacrifices, I don't see how they would be 'better' choices than Awakened.

As for Cole, my point in bringing him up is: How is a Demon possessed; not good Fade spirit along for the ride like Wynne, or corrupted Fade spirit like Anders; this is a Demon, one of the bad spirits, make sense as an ally/agent, but Darkspawn do not? 

IMO if Cole is going to be present in DA:I in any form other than an antagonist, then I say Darkspawn allies should be possible.

[Vortex13]

Foshizzlin wrote...

From what I saw, intelligent Darkspawn were more deadly and evil than non-intelligent, except for a lone messenger in Awakening. I slew the Architect, so I wouldn't expect the Awakened to return or the Darkspawn to become my allies in this game. The different with the Geth and Quarians is that, though both sides enjoyed slaughtering the other, the Geth weren't made for evil, nor were the Quarians. They had room for remorse and compassion. Here, we have a race that's been made to be nothing more than corrupted killing machines. I mean, yes, there could be kindhearted Awakened, but this early on, I wouldn't expect there to be a massive number of them. The Architect had to experiment for years and take time just to create a handful of mentally stable, neutral Darkspawn. Any Darkspawn help we could get would be insignificant, then factor in that many players did indeed kill the Architect.

It's a good idea, but it shouldn't be a major thing, as not everyones' worlds will have sapient Darkspawn. Perhaps they could be called in as allies like in the Origins Battle of Denerim, or guide you in the Deep Roads, if you go there, but I assume conditions must be right for this to happen.

I wouldn't expect anything big like a Darkspawn companion or anything, just some help behind the scenes. An Awakened 'Agent' or Deep Roads guide like you said is definitely possible.

[Vortex13]

Melca36 wrote...

No offense but I really have zero interest in this and I hope the writer/developers don't ruin the lore and do this

None taken. Different stokes for different folks.

Although I would like to point out that this has already happened in the lore (sparing the Architect/Messenger) so I don't see how the lore could be 'ruined' anymore than it has.

[Magdalena11]

@ Vortex13 - to address your arguments

There may be awakened darkspawn but canon is for books and comics, not the game. Players make their own canon. I may encounter creatures that may (or may not) be able to help me, but that doesn't mean I should or would use them.

I'm not sure why the Qunari merchant wasn't infected, but he didn't look well. In The Calling, the smell of corruption was evident when Maric went to the Circle Tower so the suppression couldn't have been complete. Don't forget that the amulets the wardens wore to "protect" them from the taint actually sped up the taint in their own bodies. Duncan's stolen dagger protected him from the influence of the amulets and Fiona got better and felt she might even be able to skip the calling but I'm not sure if that could be reproduced. The wardens weren't either. Only Remille knew what the dagger really was and he died.

Whether the awakened disciple wanted to or not, he may not be able to suppress the taint.

Desperate times may call for desperate measures but some things are just wrong.

I'm not saying anything about Tevinters or Qunari. They are far from perfect but at least they have some moral code they live by, as warped as it may be. As far as I recall, the darkspawn do not, awakened or otherwise. Rape, theft and murder are committed by a small number of soldiers under weak command. This is not the norm and won't be under any troops I command.

As for Cole, I chose my words carefully when I said ambiguous. The spirit that reached out to him did not do so seeking to possess him. It comforted a beat-up, scared, lonely and helpless mage and when he died, possessed his body and forgot it had done so. The spirit was confused, per Asunder, not my interpretation of it. I'm not sure what I make of him and will wait to see even if he shows up in game (remember his existence is so far only in a renounced survey.)

Whether the writers decide to make darkspawn allies or not, they will not be mine.

Edit:  If you reply and I don't answer it is because on the east coast of the US it's after 11:30 PM and I have to get out of bed at 4:30 AM.  I'm off to bed.

Modifié par Magdalena11, 22 août 2013 - 03:36 .

[Vortex13]

Magdalena11 wrote...

@ Vortex13 - to address your arguments

There may be awakened darkspawn but canon is for books and comics, not the game. Players make their own canon. I may encounter creatures that may (or may not) be able to help me, but that doesn't mean I should or would use them.

Sorry if my initial post was confusing, I was not saying that a living Architect is canon, or being buddy, buddy with the Disciples was canon; that is up to the player to decide, as you said we make our own canon. However, there are certain events in the lore that ARE established as canon.

The Arch Demon is killed; whether by sacrifice, or the dark ritual; the Arch Demon is dead. Every player is playing a game wherein the big bad dies, no alternative solutions, this is a firmly established event in the lore. Same thing with the Awakened Darkspawn, the player can choose to kill all the Disciples they see, or not, but it doesn't alter the fact that there are now intelligent Darkspawn out there.

Now this doesn't mean that I want players who are totally opposed to the idea of working with Darkspawn to be forced to do so, what I am asking for is the option to do so if one choses. More options is always a good thing (IMO).

Magdalena11 wrote...

I'm not sure why the Qunari merchant wasn't infected, but he didn't look well. In The Calling, the smell of corruption was evident when Maric went to the Circle Tower so the suppression couldn't have been complete. Don't forget that the amulets the wardens wore to "protect" them from the taint actually sped up the taint in their own bodies. Duncan's stolen dagger protected him from the influence of the amulets and Fiona got better and felt she might even be able to skip the calling but I'm not sure if that could be reproduced. The wardens weren't either. Only Remille knew what the dagger really was and he died.

The Qunari merchant was offered protection from the Architect; now whether this was from magical item, or the Architect suppressing the Taint remains to be seen; but it is said that the merchant in question was living with and exchanging items with Darkspawn over an extened period of time, and he did not appear to be suffering any ill effects. The Warden Commander can even have the Qunari set up shop at his/her home base, so the Qunari must not have been a threat to the populace. 

Even if the suppression of the Taint is only postponed, and working with Darkspawn is akin to handling radioactive materials and then developing cancer later in life, I still would say it should be an option.

The Inquisitor is looking to stop the world from falling apart, trying to gain whatever allies s/he can; I don't think what may or may not happen many years down the line is going to be a the forefront of the PC's mind, when dealing with the Fade Tear is more important.

Magdalena11 wrote...

Desperate times may call for desperate measures but some things are just wrong.

I'm not saying anything about Tevinters or Qunari. They are far from perfect but at least they have some moral code they live by, as warped as it may be. As far as I recall, the darkspawn do not, awakened or otherwise. Rape, theft and murder are committed by a small number of soldiers under weak command. This is not the norm and won't be under any troops I command.

Darkspawn might not operate under a moral code, as identifable by the other races of Thedas, its true, but then again they have only recently been given free will after being mere meat puppets of the Arch Demons. I am not saying this in order to generate sympathy for the Awakend, I am mearly pointing out that, up until being Awakened Darkspawn have had NO moral system in place, they have no real frame of reference to draw upon for what not to do. 

The way I see it, the Awakened are Chaotic Neutral with a strong leaning towards Chaotic Evil, but that is really only because of all they have ever know prior to being given intellegence. 'Bad' Darkspawn is a real possibility, but so are the 'Not Bad' ones, like the Messenger. I am not saying that the Inquisitor would sign up with a group of Darkspawn and then turn a blind eye to their raping, killing and pillaging; that is what s/he is fighting to stop the Demons from doing. If Awakened are recruitable, I would assume that means that they are willing to work with the Inquisition and not do things that would be contrary to their goals.  

Magdalena11 wrote...

As for Cole, I chose my words carefully when I said ambiguous. The spirit that reached out to him did not do so seeking to possess him. It comforted a beat-up, scared, lonely and helpless mage and when he died, possessed his body and forgot it had done so. The spirit was confused, per Asunder, not my interpretation of it. I'm not sure what I make of him and will wait to see even if he shows up in game (remember his existence is so far only in a renounced survey.)

Whether the writers decide to make darkspawn allies or not, they will not be mine.

Edit:  If you reply and I don't answer it is because on the east coast of the US it's after 11:30 PM and I have to get out of bed at 4:30 AM.  I'm off to bed.

Cole, or rather the spirit possesing him shouldn't be 'given a pass' (as in being seen as an acceptable ally) over potiential Darkspawn allies is what I am saying. The Spirit was 'confused' or seeking vengence; I don't see how that makes it more capable of assitance than Awakened (who could be argued to be 'confused' as well in their actions), both have kill many people. And Cole's decision to not kill (those that don't deserve it) towards the end of the book, is no more different than an Awakened that decides to not rape, kill or pillage. What works for one should work for the other IMO.

I can see where your coming from in your stance to not ally with the Darkspawn, that's fine. People have different tastes, and opinions, I would never want to see a particular viewpoint shoved into a players face saying that they HAVE to do this, or side with this faction.

All I am asking for, like I said earlier, is more options.

[Taleroth]

The one unique thing about Awakened Darkspawn is that they are changed creatures. They're trans-darkspawn. Adapting a philosophy of change would be easy, even natural, for them.

Not necessarily wanting to be human, but wanting to learn about the world, wanting to create a new society, with brand new ideals.

[Vortex13]

Taleroth wrote...

The one unique thing about Awakened Darkspawn is that they are changed creatures. They're trans-darkspawn. Adapting a philosophy of change would be easy, even natural, for them.

Not necessarily wanting to be human, but wanting to learn about the world, wanting to create a new society, with brand new ideals.

As long as the story doesn't try and make concessions for the Awakened in question, make them self hating Darkspawn, I am okay with this.

They can have more self control, and be trying to better understand the other cultures around them, but I say don't have them (or the story) try and appologize for what other Darkspawn have done.

The Messenger Disciple spoke plainly to the PC, he didn't try and convince the player to spare him, or try and justify his fellow's actions. He simply stated what he was, and that he was willing to help.

That is how I would prefer any potiential Darkspawn allies to act, unapologetic, simple and to the point. "Yes we are Darkspawn, and we are offering you help."

[Taleroth]

Awakening even split them in two camps. Now, I think apologizing would be kind of lame, but having a split between those distancing themselves from regular darkspawn and those embracing heritage is appreciable.

Heck, one of the first things they did was try to stop the blights. Architect doesn't seem too big a fan of the way things were.

[Vortex13]

Taleroth wrote...

Awakening even split them in two camps. Now, I think apologizing would be kind of lame, but having a split between those distancing themselves from regular darkspawn and those embracing heritage is appreciable.

Heck, one of the first things they did was try to stop the blights. Architect doesn't seem too big a fan of the way things were.

Evolution of the Awakened' character is to be expected, I just want it to be in a logical sense. Plus I wouldn't necessarily see a Darkspawn that doesn't hide from what it is as one that longs for the 'good old days'

[In Exile]

Taleroth wrote...

Awakening even split them in two camps. Now, I think apologizing would be kind of lame, but having a split between those distancing themselves from regular darkspawn and those embracing heritage is appreciable.

Heck, one of the first things they did was try to stop the blights. Architect doesn't seem too big a fan of the way things were.

Nothing like an endless genocide and rape of all non-darkspawn races flowing from a war that forces them to perpetually regenerate their numbers to really show us how the darkspawn and non-darkspawn can co-exist. 

[Magdalena11]

@Vortex13 - You have a valid point in having the ability to choose options and face the consequences. The devs probably have all the storylines worked out by now and our debate is probably rhetorical. There have been hints that DAI is going to be more about C&C and I can't honestly say which would be the "better" outcome. If my PC did something repulsive to obtain a favorable outcome the ends might justify the means. If choosing the high road resulted in more humans, elves, dwarves and qunari being harmed I might regret that choice. The flip side is also possible. Making what feels like the "wrong" decision in order to obtain a favorable outcome and then finding out it did more harm than good would really be terrible. Maybe doing right and being wrong is better than doing wrong and being right and maybe not. Giving the PC difficult choices is a good thing though.

This has turned out to make me more optimistic that this might be a great game if the C&C decision tree is complex.

[Vortex13]

Magdalena11 wrote...

@Vortex13 - You have a valid point in having the ability to choose options and face the consequences. The devs probably have all the storylines worked out by now and our debate is probably rhetorical. There have been hints that DAI is going to be more about C&C and I can't honestly say which would be the "better" outcome. If my PC did something repulsive to obtain a favorable outcome the ends might justify the means. If choosing the high road resulted in more humans, elves, dwarves and qunari being harmed I might regret that choice. The flip side is also possible. Making what feels like the "wrong" decision in order to obtain a favorable outcome and then finding out it did more harm than good would really be terrible. Maybe doing right and being wrong is better than doing wrong and being right and maybe not. Giving the PC difficult choices is a good thing though.

This has turned out to make me more optimistic that this might be a great game if the C&C decision tree is complex.

More options are always preferred. With that being said, I hope that the C&C present in DA:I is of the morally grey area, than a good and evil choice.

Something like the choice of Dwarven King in DA:O; the 'better' Dwarf (in terms of not being a sibling murderer) actually leads the Dwarves into being more isolationist and less trusting of the other races than his opponent. Neither choice is the 'good' choice, both lead to your Grey Warden receiving aid, but they have different effects outside of the main conflict.

I would want something like that present in all of the game's decisions, but specifically in the topic at hand. I don't want the act of using Darkspawn allies to be something that is portrayed as the moustache twirling evil monster choice anymore than I want to see choosing the Templars over the Mages as the evil option.

[Tarek]

only good darkspawn is a dead one

[eye basher]

i'm gonna say it now all the fan service this game is getting is going to ruin it.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Citadel was pure fan service, and it was awesome.

I fail to see how something incorporating things the fans want is a bad thing to be honest.