235 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

[Valkyre4]

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

exactly...

thank the Lord someone else is saying the right thing in here for a change.

Nowdays the trend is that ME1 was uber cool and awesome, while it was ME1 that specifically plotted the way into what happens with the reapers in mE3. The clues are all over the place, Vigil on Ilos was pretty much saying to Shepard that the Reapers plan is not one he will be able to comprehend since it comes form a being that has totally different rationale than what organics have.

Its like asking a calculator to tell you why 1 + 1 = 2...

[RevenantWolf]

Valkyre4 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

exactly...

thank the Lord someone else is saying the right thing in here for a change.

Nowdays the trend is that ME1 was uber cool and awesome, while it was ME1 that specifically plotted the way into what happens with the reapers in mE3. The clues are all over the place, Vigil on Ilos was pretty much saying to Shepard that the Reapers plan is not one he will be able to comprehend since it comes form a being that has totally different rationale than what organics have.

Its like asking a calculator to tell you why 1 + 1 = 2...

But we did comprehend what the Reapers purpose was, we were flat out told, and it was a joke. would have been better off if it was left unknown

Modifié par RevenantWolf, 02 mars 2013 - 10:20 .

[jstme]

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

No. Blame ME3 and its futile attempt at explaining something that better be left a mystery anyway.
Imagine Harbinger during its last mass effect core pulses saying something epic in the type of:
"You think you won but it is just an insignificant delay. Cycles will continue. It is inevitable. We will be back. Hasta la vista,Shepard. Yow will not be asceneded but long after your memory will perish reaping will continue . Harbinger shot first. These are not the reapers you were looking for...."
Well, you got it. Something really epic, not like this crap i wrote but in the same spirit. 
No reason to explain reaping. Opens new possibilities for sequels. 

[Valkyre4]

jstme wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

No. Blame ME3 and its futile attempt at explaining something that better be left a mystery anyway.
Imagine Harbinger during its last mass effect core pulses saying something epic in the type of:
"You think you won but it is just an insignificant delay. Cycles will continue. It is inevitable. We will be back. Hasta la vista,Shepard. Yow will not be asceneded but long after your memory will perish reaping will continue . Harbinger shot first. These are not the reapers you were looking for...."
Well, you got it. Something really epic, not like this crap i wrote but in the same spirit. 
No reason to explain reaping. Opens new possibilities for sequels. 

The problem with your logic is that just because this sounds as "epic" to your ears, doesnt mean that it sounds epic in other individuals...(and yes I am not taking literally what you wrote but the context of it)

That is why some people find epic the fact that Shepard sacrifices himself, and others scream for a blue babies ending...

The definition of epic varies among individuals. 

Modifié par Valkyre4, 02 mars 2013 - 10:27 .

[Solaxe]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

The ending is excellent!

Seriously?

[Soul Tumor]

The only problem I have at this point is no reunion scene for destroy, or at least show Shepard getting pulled out of the rubble. Not a fan of the response "up to you to decide shepard's fate" I really liked control though. I am glad you enjoyed the ending though!

[Funkdrspot]

Bill Casey wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I'd highly encourage you to check out the Control ending too. It's pretty awesome and not what you might expect.

Yeah, building a god in your own image to lord over the galaxy with the enslaved desecrated corpses of trillions...
Neato...

the idea that shepard is now a god in the control ending is beyond stupid. He has a tech advantage. He has tons of power. How is that different than the tons of civilzations in our own past?! By your backwater religious POV, the Kings of the past were actually right to have their subjects revere them as gods.....MY Shepard is altruistic, so *I* did not *lord over an enslaved galaxy*.

[RevenantWolf]

Valkyre4 wrote...

jstme wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

No. Blame ME3 and its futile attempt at explaining something that better be left a mystery anyway.
Imagine Harbinger during its last mass effect core pulses saying something epic in the type of:
"You think you won but it is just an insignificant delay. Cycles will continue. It is inevitable. We will be back. Hasta la vista,Shepard. Yow will not be asceneded but long after your memory will perish reaping will continue . Harbinger shot first. These are not the reapers you were looking for...."
Well, you got it. Something really epic, not like this crap i wrote but in the same spirit. 
No reason to explain reaping. Opens new possibilities for sequels. 

The problem with your logic is that just because this sounds as "epic" to your ears, doesnt mean that it sounds epic in other individuals...(and yes I am not taking literally what you wrote but the context of it)

That is why some people find epic the fact that Shepard sacrifices himself, and others scream for a blue babies ending...

The definition of epic varies among individuals. 

True, but no reason why we couldn't have had a blue babies ending and a sacrifice everything ending. I wouldn't call any of the endings we got "epic" by the way.

[Obadiah]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the ending. There is an AI that does not value "life" the same way we do attempting to maintain order and prevent the destruction of all Organic life. It initiated a horrendous genocidal plan with the Reaper cycles, and in response Organic civilizations did something similar with the Crucible.

Inevitable conflict proven.

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 mars 2013 - 10:35 .

[jstme]

Valkyre4 wrote...

jstme wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

No. Blame ME3 and its futile attempt at explaining something that better be left a mystery anyway.
Imagine Harbinger during its last mass effect core pulses saying something epic in the type of:
"You think you won but it is just an insignificant delay. Cycles will continue. It is inevitable. We will be back. Hasta la vista,Shepard. Yow will not be asceneded but long after your memory will perish reaping will continue . Harbinger shot first. These are not the reapers you were looking for...."
Well, you got it. Something really epic, not like this crap i wrote but in the same spirit. 
No reason to explain reaping. Opens new possibilities for sequels. 

The problem with your logic is that just because this sounds as "epic" to your ears, doesnt mean that it sounds epic in other individuals...(and yes I am not taking literally what you wrote but the context of it)

That is why some people find epic the fact that Shepard sacrifices himself, and others scream for a blue babies ending...

The definition of epic varies among individuals. 

Hmm...
Shooting tube from point range vs Sovereign speech in ME1.... 
Choosing form of suicide from colorfull options graciously presented by blacmailing Reaper King because otherwise it will be SO BE IT vs Mordin sacrifice. Had to be him, you know...

Of course you entitled to your opinion about ME3 ending. But i think that ME3 ending is as far from epic as culturally possible. Even blue babies - though i am not that into blue babies since it reminds me more of a medical condition - is more epic then symbolic forced suicide+genocide because your enemy demands it. 

[jstme]

Obadiah wrote...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the ending. There is an AI that does not value "life" the same way we do attempting to maintain order and prevent the destruction of all Organic life. It initiated a horrendous genocidal plan with the Reaper cycles, and in response Organic civilizations did something similar with the Crucible.

Inevitable conflict proven.

Organic civilizations did something with crucible? Oganic civilization to very last second had no idea what magic off button really does. SRKWPOG (synthetic reaper king's worse possible options generator) decided what it will do.

[NoGround94]

 One thing I've noticed about this topic is that people wanted to see the after-effect/consequences of their decisions after the final decision was made. What they don't seem to see is that they DID see those consequences. It was right under their noses the entire time, and still is. Bioware specifically stated that they wanted this (ME3) to be the conclusion of everything that you have ever done as Shepard. From the Geth and Quarians, to Tuchanka, to the Citadel, the consequences of decisions made from the FIRST and SECOND games comes forth, and the ending of each branch depends on how it was handled from the first games.

Let's think of each Arc of ME3 as a story of its own. There are 3 main arcs (Not including Earth): Cerberus, Rannoch, Tuchanka (and the Citadel, but that one is Minor, most of that arc was concluded in ME2). Each one of these arcs is concluded based on previous decisions from the other games. There are some conclusions that are IMPOSSIBLE without the correct decisions in the ME1 and ME2, like convincing the Illusive Man on the Citadel, or having the Geth and Quarians live peacefully.

My whole point is, the ME trilogy was concluded, Shepard's story was concluded, through the ENTIRE game ME3. If you think of ME3 is the entire conclusion to Shepard's story, you get a completely different outlook on the ending. When I finally thought of the Trilogy like that, the ending took on an entirely different view for me. I realized that these final choices were the ONLY choices. For those wanting an Epilogue: you already know the consequences of your decisions, there was no need for a Dragon Age: Origins ending.

EDIT: Maybe I should add my own opinions about the ending. If you play Leviathon, you get a huuuugggeee understanding of what the Catalyst actually is. This affected my thoughts on the ending choices, but I do agree that Shepard should have been allowed to use that Silver Tongue to convince the Catalyst. Still, the choices, even on my second playthrough, had me sitting there for a good 15 minutes trying to decide. I felt satisfied this time because I fully conversed with the Catalyst in an attempt to understand what was going on, unlike the first time.

Modifié par NoGround94, 02 mars 2013 - 10:56 .

[Valkyre4]

jstme wrote...

Valkyre4 wrote...

jstme wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

No. Blame ME3 and its futile attempt at explaining something that better be left a mystery anyway.
Imagine Harbinger during its last mass effect core pulses saying something epic in the type of:
"You think you won but it is just an insignificant delay. Cycles will continue. It is inevitable. We will be back. Hasta la vista,Shepard. Yow will not be asceneded but long after your memory will perish reaping will continue . Harbinger shot first. These are not the reapers you were looking for...."
Well, you got it. Something really epic, not like this crap i wrote but in the same spirit. 
No reason to explain reaping. Opens new possibilities for sequels. 

The problem with your logic is that just because this sounds as "epic" to your ears, doesnt mean that it sounds epic in other individuals...(and yes I am not taking literally what you wrote but the context of it)

That is why some people find epic the fact that Shepard sacrifices himself, and others scream for a blue babies ending...

The definition of epic varies among individuals. 

Hmm...
Shooting tube from point range vs Sovereign speech in ME1.... 
Choosing form of suicide from colorfull options graciously presented by blacmailing Reaper King because otherwise it will be SO BE IT vs Mordin sacrifice. Had to be him, you know...

Of course you entitled to your opinion about ME3 ending. But i think that ME3 ending is as far from epic as culturally possible. Even blue babies - though i am not that into blue babies since it reminds me more of a medical condition - is more epic then symbolic forced suicide+genocide because your enemy demands it. 

Sometimes I wonder if all your (and that "your" is not directed specifically to you just to be clear, it might even not be directed to you at all if you are not one of those folks) extreme hatred is blinding you from several things, or you just pretend that you dont know the real thing.

Right now you bring the all boring argument of colors... yeah thats right, the colors is the problem. Then you speak of the catalyst as the "Reaper King" who "demands" sacrifice.

Seriously? The Catalyst is the Reaper King? Since when? Is that what you understood? And how come self sacrifice is not your choice and it is his?

Look I also respect people's opinions that they dont like the endings but all this HATRED is overkill and it leads to some seriously overreacting comments. Its like people are trying so much to dissect every single thing about ME3 and turn it into a bad mess. It is sad really.

Meanwhile everyone says how awesome ME1 was and how amazingly perfect its dialogue was, while I believe ME1 dialogue was quite ridiculous (and the VA was pretty bad) at certain moments.

All in all I see double standards all over the place. ME1 gets away with everything ****ty that it had, but hey, lets crusify ME3 for just about EVERYTHING there is to be.

Sorry, but i consider this sad. :/

I am not saying you should like the game or its endings, but this has gone waaaaaay overboard already.

Modifié par Valkyre4, 02 mars 2013 - 10:53 .

[Seival]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Don't worry OP, you're not in the minority at all. Also, I agree. The ending is excellent!

+1

[SyK18]

Well...that's just great for you buddy. I'm just surprised you found nothing wrong with the endings.


Btw Skyrim did not even have an ending really. It's story was really weak and short. I had more fun doing the quests and everthing else. Did not even bother with the "main" story.

[Meltemph]

AlanC9 wrote...

Only-Twin wrote...

I just hate how poorly-written the whole part with the catalyst is. I don't care about the lack of choices and whatnot, I just can't stand how that scene is so incredibly flawed. The reasoning behind the reapers is completely ridiculous.

Blame ME1 for saddling the Reapers with an irrational plan. 

Huh? ME1 gave so much leeway on how todeal with the reapers.  I mean, at that point you had them trapped in dark space.  Just because they wrote what they wrote with ME2 and 3 doesnt mean they had to or needed to, because of ME1.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Obadiah wrote...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the ending. There is an AI that does not value "life" the same way we do attempting to maintain order and prevent the destruction of all Organic life. It initiated a horrendous genocidal plan with the Reaper cycles, and in response Organic civilizations did something similar with the Crucible. 

Inevitable conflict proven.

Because it's not the kind of Sci-fi most people here are "familiar" with. 

People wanted Reapers to be evil bad guys who are evil. It's harder to accept them as just mechanisms in a larger scheme and the Reaper Cycle itself being some sort of cosmic "accident" that came about millions of years ago.

[NoGround94]

Valkyre4 wrote...

Seriously? The Catalyst is the Reaper King? Since when? .....

....Meanwhile everyone says how awesome ME1 was and how amazingly perfect its dialogue was, while I believe ME1 dialogue was quite ridiculous (and the VA was pretty bad) at certain moments.

All in all I see double standards all over the place. ME1 gets away with everything ****ty that it had, but hey, lets crusify ME3 for just about EVERYTHING there is to be.

The Catalyst controls the Reapers. If you've played Leviathon, you learn that the Catalyst was an AI created to maintain order, given physical form as Harbinger in the image of the Leviathons. So, technically, the Catalyst is the "Reaper King" though that is a crude term for it.

The main gripes I have with ME1 is the combat gameplay. Still don't know how many times I've said "THAT WAS ****ING BULL****" when I died or been frustrated trapped into a corner and using cheap tactics instead of epicness to win. (Mostly happens on Insanity). There was a lot of drama in the dialogue, and was a bit less realistic than ME2 and ME3. ME1 dialogue is quite a bit different from the other two because of this drama, but how you feel about that is an opinion.

[adayaday]

Obadiah wrote...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the ending. There is an AI that does not value "life" the same way we do attempting to maintain order and prevent the destruction of all Organic life. It initiated a horrendous genocidal plan with the Reaper cycles, and in response Organic civilizations did something similar with the Crucible.

Inevitable conflict proven.

This one is arguable,and if you dont find it to be true then the ending will fall apart for you.
and its just one of the problems the ending has to offer.

[The Night Mammoth]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the ending. There is an AI that does not value "life" the same way we do attempting to maintain order and prevent the destruction of all Organic life. It initiated a horrendous genocidal plan with the Reaper cycles, and in response Organic civilizations did something similar with the Crucible. 

Inevitable conflict proven.

Because it's not the kind of Sci-fi most people here are "familiar" with. 

People wanted Reapers to be evil bad guys who are evil. It's harder to accept them as just mechanisms in a larger scheme and the Reaper Cycle itself being some sort of cosmic "accident" that came about millions of years ago.

Probably because the Reapers didn't have a whole lot else to them past some enigmatic and unclear dialogue which defined almost nothing about them other than perhaps a measure of hubris, because they were always portrayed as unspeakably evil even with the afore mentioned dialogue potentially pertaining to some depth, and because the idea itself of a never-ending conflict between synthetics and organics and it then being the concept the whole operation is based on, the sole reason any of this is happening, jumps kinda out of the blue.

[Meltemph]

Obadiah wrote...

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the ending. There is an AI that does not value "life" the same way we do attempting to maintain order and prevent the destruction of all Organic life. It initiated a horrendous genocidal plan with the Reaper cycles, and in response Organic civilizations did something similar with the Crucible.

Inevitable conflict proven.

Inevitable conflict wasnt its arguing point... I'm not sure why you think that adds to the idea of the catalyst.

[jijeebo]

Glad you enjoyed it OP, that's what I like to hear!


I like the endings as well, I just wish my first experience with them had been with the EC though... It could've spared me weeks of anger and sadness.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ OP: You know you could load up your last save where it says "continue" after the end since you did choose Destroy and you got the Shepard Survives ending.

It goes to the point before Cronos, and load up the Citadel DLC and play it as a Post Ending DLC if you want. No one says you can't.

3....2.....1.... someone will argue with me.

You did the right thing. The conflict is inevitable. All of the choices are temporary fixes, even synthesis. Soon the galaxy will create organics again. Destroy just cuts through the BS. No matter what people tell you it is not genocide. You saved the galaxy from future pain. Get rid of those pesky synthetics now otherwise they will surpass us and we will end up serving them. The Catalyst was watching out for us. His methods were barbaric, but organics never learned. By choosing destroy you showed that we have learned.

Organics only create synthetics to perform mundane tasks they do not wish to perform. When the synthetic is no longer capable of performing that task it is discarded. When the synthetic goes out of control it is destroyed. Yet the Illusive Man wanted to control the reapers, but the way you would have to do it would be to become a synthetic yourself, thus negating the entire purpose of control. Control must be done by organics otherwise you have lost control.

EDIT: Creating synthetics that are more intelligent than the organic that designed it is idiocy. Pure foolishness. It will lead to nothing good.

Why would we create a synthetic that would be beyond our control? Why would we create a synthetic that would be able to grow to the point where it could control us? That would be totally stupid. Such things should be destroyed before that could happen. The created will always rebel against their creators.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 02 mars 2013 - 11:29 .

[Valkyre4]

NoGround94 wrote...

Valkyre4 wrote...

Seriously? The Catalyst is the Reaper King? Since when? .....

....Meanwhile everyone says how awesome ME1 was and how amazingly perfect its dialogue was, while I believe ME1 dialogue was quite ridiculous (and the VA was pretty bad) at certain moments.

All in all I see double standards all over the place. ME1 gets away with everything ****ty that it had, but hey, lets crusify ME3 for just about EVERYTHING there is to be.

The Catalyst controls the Reapers. If you've played Leviathon, you learn that the Catalyst was an AI created to maintain order, given physical form as Harbinger in the image of the Leviathons. So, technically, the Catalyst is the "Reaper King" though that is a crude term for it.

The main gripes I have with ME1 is the combat gameplay. Still don't know how many times I've said "THAT WAS ****ING BULL****" when I died or been frustrated trapped into a corner and using cheap tactics instead of epicness to win. (Mostly happens on Insanity). There was a lot of drama in the dialogue, and was a bit less realistic than ME2 and ME3. ME1 dialogue is quite a bit different from the other two because of this drama, but how you feel about that is an opinion.

Τhe Catalyst is not a Reaper. Hence he cant be a "reaper king". The catalyst is an A.I. a program that controls the reapers. That A.I. was tasked to find a solution to the pattern that kept repeating itself countless cycles. The A.I. considered the particular solution and indeed it was the perfect solution until the cycle of shepard where everything changes and an AI is presented with a different outcome for the first time.

For the first time the galaxy is truly united, for the first time organics and synthetics are joining forces and are not in war. And for the first time all this was possible because of shepard. That makes the AI question its original solution. The most common missconception -imho- I see on this board concerning the "logic" of Reapers, is that people are trying to compare the logic of an organic with the logic of a synthetic. That is completely wrong in my opinion. An AI, is bound by vastly different processing of "logic". Every single encounter with Legion, EDI or other AIs pretty much confirms this throughout the entire trilogy, yet people ignore it and think that a Reaper should be thinking as a human being...

This AI, the catalyst, realises that while its solution might have been 99,9999999999999999% correct, that 0,00000000000001% of a mistake, of a different outcome, of the Shepard outcome, is enough to make it question that very solution. Hence it wants to present / find a new solution that is for the first time presented due to the completion of the crucible and the connection it establishes with the citadel.

I dont know why all this sound so boring to people, or why this should make the catalyst a "Reaper King", so plain and simply, as if all of what I said above (which is a fraction of the actual creation/pirpose of the catalyst) just isnt worth mentioning.

It is like there is consistent effort out there to just try and make everything sound bad , ugly, stupid, and illogical about this game.

And I feel that this is not fair. Not saying you should like it, but just hating on everything is too much.