235 réponses à ce sujet

[Jassu1979]

The problem with the Extended Cut is that it did NOT address the most central points of criticism most fans leveled at the original ending.*

Bioware pretended that it was all about "additional closure and clarification", suggesting that the critics simply had not understood what the writers were trying to say - which is in itself pretty condescending, and COMPLETELY misses the point.

*And in the few cases where they *tried* to address valid point of criticism, for example the Normandy suddenly fleeing with your squad mates on board, they made things even worse with the weakest and most poorly written explanation possible.

[Indy_S]

abch4 wrote...

Exactly. It's not an argument, it's the anti-enders that see at as such! Always needing to try and rip apart somebody's reasons for liking something.

Somebody posting an opinion of taste is completely valid, and I'm not sure where you are getting the "rules of what can be posted" from. It's a legit thread, and that advice of "In fact, you might just as well not say anything at all," should be took from those who don't like threads such as these.

Forum is a discussion board, it doesn't mean every opinion has to have a analytical foundation that is prepped for "argument", as you kept saying.

I like the ending. Why? I just did, it catered to my tastes as did the gameplay. Sorry my opinion doesn't agree with yours, or have "facts" to back it up with. But It is what it is.

You act as if you can challenge somebody liking it by your criticism of the game. It's not nonsense, and you can take it seriously or not, that's your right. Just don't say people don't have a right to post here because they dont analyse the hell out of the game and justify to YOU why they like it.

The forum is not a soapbox. Saying "I liked it" means you are not willing to participate in a discussion. You do not seek to provide or gain understanding. You are spam.

[Jassu1979]

Valkyre4:

Interestingly enough, I often feel just as beleaguered by pro-enders as you seem to feel by anti-enders:
Having to read replies like "that's just your opinion" or "you must have tried pretty hard not to like the game" does not really establish a peaceful climate for a productive discussion.

This all started with me pointing out that I could not really pinpoint what it was that bothered me so much when I finished the game for the first time. And that comment alone apparently incensed you to the point where you had to lash out at me.

[Valkyre4]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Valkyre4:

Interestingly enough, I often feel just as beleaguered by pro-enders as you seem to feel by anti-enders:
Having to read replies like "that's just your opinion" or "you must have tried pretty hard not to like the game" does not really establish a peaceful climate for a productive discussion.

This all started with me pointing out that I could not really pinpoint what it was that bothered me so much when I finished the game for the first time. And that comment alone apparently incensed you to the point where you had to lash out at me.

True, I admit it that when I read you saying you were not disappointed originally, but then went on to hate it after dissecting it and reading about it, it sounded really wrong to me in lots of ways. Sure it was not a constructive post and sure I shouldnt have made it. I agree with that, and I apologize.

But like I said I left this community 1 year ago when I found myself being bombarded with many persons arguing with me, insulting me while I was trying to explain what I liked and why I liked it and what I thought about all the negatives they had to say about. I really had an answer to everything I was thrown at. And that was before the EC. I remember explaining the so called Mass Relay destruction/starvation plot hole and then I was very glad to see it fully realised as I said it in the EC.

But it came to a point where this thing became ugly. I mean I was making a post and when I pressed enter there were like 10 new posts quoting me already.... that was overwhelming... in no way called "discussion", it was internet bullying at its finest... it was like I liked a videogame and i had TO ANSWER FOR IT.

And then I left, in hope that one year later people would have dealt with this and moved on, and I could finally speak my thoughts without having to deal with all this. And yet I come back and I open the page and I see countless hate threads about the same old thing...

And I think it is hopeless now.

Modifié par Valkyre4, 04 mars 2013 - 11:35 .

[GiarcYekrub]

I like the ending too, OP.

[anmiro]

I'm glad you enjoyed it OP. Despite its ending, Mass Effect is my favorite game series of all time. I wish my first play through had an extended cut. After completing my first play through of ME3 I immediately reloaded the ending and played it again. Not because I enjoyed it, but because of how many questions it raised and failed to answer. It was nice of Bioware to release an Extended Cut, but I think they could have done better. I could go on as to how, but thats for another thread; which there are plenty of.

Modifié par anmiro, 04 mars 2013 - 11:55 .

[abch4]

Indy_S wrote...

abch4 wrote...

Exactly. It's not an argument, it's the anti-enders that see at as such! Always needing to try and rip apart somebody's reasons for liking something.

Somebody posting an opinion of taste is completely valid, and I'm not sure where you are getting the "rules of what can be posted" from. It's a legit thread, and that advice of "In fact, you might just as well not say anything at all," should be took from those who don't like threads such as these.

Forum is a discussion board, it doesn't mean every opinion has to have a analytical foundation that is prepped for "argument", as you kept saying.

I like the ending. Why? I just did, it catered to my tastes as did the gameplay. Sorry my opinion doesn't agree with yours, or have "facts" to back it up with. But It is what it is.

You act as if you can challenge somebody liking it by your criticism of the game. It's not nonsense, and you can take it seriously or not, that's your right. Just don't say people don't have a right to post here because they dont analyse the hell out of the game and justify to YOU why they like it.

The forum is not a soapbox. Saying "I liked it" means you are not willing to participate in a discussion. You do not seek to provide or gain understanding. You are spam.

Gain an understanding of what!? THEY LIKE IT. You are a prime candidate of the self-righteous ending enlightenment movement! 

Not every thread has to come down to justification of liking it, there is a lot more to discuss than that. Well, that is if you dont have an agenda of course 

[Indy_S]

abch4 wrote...

Gain an understanding of what!? THEY LIKE IT. You are a prime candidate of the self-righteous ending enlightenment movement! 

Not every thread has to come down to justification of liking it, there is a lot more to discuss than that. Well, that is if you dont have an agenda of course 

Discussing the execution of elements or the implications of the endings are fine. Saying "I like it" and leaving it at that is not a part of a discussion. That is a vote on a poll.

Prime candidate, eh? SEEMs likely. (pa-dum-tish)

[Legbiter]

What I hated about the original ending was no matter what you picked you doomed the Galaxy to a Dark Age as the relay network was completely destroyed, not merely damaged as in the EC.

After the EC I'm perfectly happy with the ending per se, it's no longer excruciating.

[PSUHammer]

NO matter how they decided to end the game, Bioware would have been ripped by a segment of the audience for their decisions. At that point, they were damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The fact that so many people felt as strongly as they did is a good testament to the overall design.

[PSUHammer]

Indy_S wrote...

abch4 wrote...

Gain an understanding of what!? THEY LIKE IT. You are a prime candidate of the self-righteous ending enlightenment movement! 

Not every thread has to come down to justification of liking it, there is a lot more to discuss than that. Well, that is if you dont have an agenda of course 

Discussing the execution of elements or the implications of the endings are fine. Saying "I like it" and leaving it at that is not a part of a discussion. That is a vote on a poll.

Prime candidate, eh? SEEMs likely. (pa-dum-tish)

Conversely...saying that it sucked is also a poll.

Modifié par PSUHammer, 04 mars 2013 - 01:13 .

[Jassu1979]

PSUHammer wrote...
Conversely...saying that it sucked is also a poll.

It sure is - if you leave it at that, and do not make any effort to substantiate that statement.

So, going back to the opening post: what *can* we reply if no discussion is sought, and no arguments offered?
"You liked the ending. Good for you. What was the point of making this thread again?"

[Jassu1979]

PSUHammer wrote...
The fact that so many people felt as strongly as they did is a good testament to the overall design.

This, I can wholeheartedly agree with.
I LOVED the Mass Effect universe, and would not have cared as much if the series as a whole had been less spectacular.

[Nerevar-as]

PSUHammer wrote...

NO matter how they decided to end the game, Bioware would have been ripped by a segment of the audience for their decisions. At that point, they were damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The fact that so many people felt as strongly as they did is a good testament to the overall design.

Despite what some might think, getting hate is not better than getting indiference. Only thing ending (and main plot) proved was Walters wasn´t the guy to put in charge after Drew left... and if we go by the Dark Energy plot, Drew is also much better at beginnings than endings.

And yes, when someone says s/he liked the ending, I´d like to know why. Especially when they say I´m missing something brilliant where I see some of the worst writing I´ve come across.

[PSUHammer]

Nerevar-as wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

NO matter how they decided to end the game, Bioware would have been ripped by a segment of the audience for their decisions. At that point, they were damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The fact that so many people felt as strongly as they did is a good testament to the overall design.

Despite what some might think, getting hate is not better than getting indiference. Only thing ending (and main plot) proved was Walters wasn´t the guy to put in charge after Drew left... and if we go by the Dark Energy plot, Drew is also much better at beginnings than endings.

And yes, when someone says s/he liked the ending, I´d like to know why. Especially when they say I´m missing something brilliant where I see some of the worst writing I´ve come across.

There have been pretty thorough explanations on both sides on the BSN over the past year.  The problem is people rarely want to listen to the other side.  At the end of the day, who cares?

I liked the game because the combat was fun (and WAY better than ME1).   I feel that ME1 is gets the nostalgia treatment and people praise it and overlook it's flaws way more than they should.  ME2 removed most of the RPG goodness and people blasted it, as well, at the time.

The issue with the ending is people built up their own expectations of how things should go down.  Built them up way too high, IMO.  There hasn't been any other game series, at the same quality level as this one, that have had so many choices branch through them.  Were some inconsequential?  Sure.  Is that like life?  Sure.  Does every little conversation or choice need a massive payoff?  No.  Are there some technical plot holes?  Sure.  Are there always in stories this long and complex?  Usually.  Is it game breaking?  No.  Was everything tied up like a bow?  No.  Does it need to be?  Depends on who you are.  I didn't need Harbinger to have an epic demise.  I didn't need Shepard to have a cake and balloon party send off.

The characters, dialogue, romances, combat, MP, level design, moral decisions, etc. were all epic and awesome.  Some of the characters got amazingly emotional send offs.  The voice acting was the best I have ever seen in a game series.  The Illusive Man was an awesome villain.

I have found ME3 the most replayable of the three games.  And I have played them all multiple times.  I don't care if the calculations of light years is off (or whatever nerd detail people think was missed).  I don't look at minutia.  I enjoyed the story.  I studied British history yet I still love Braveheart.  Is it historically accurate?  Hell no...but it was an awesome movie.

Modifié par PSUHammer, 04 mars 2013 - 01:38 .

[Obadiah]

Indy_S wrote...
...
The forum is not a soapbox. Saying "I liked it" means you are not willing to participate in a discussion. You do not seek to provide or gain understanding. You are spam.

Actually, a forum is a soap-box, almost by definition. Posters just have to stay on topic.

[SilentK]

Of course people can write long or short posts as they wish. This is not a home assignment for school.

[Valkyre4]

PSUHammer wrote...


I have found ME3 the most replayable of the three
games.  And I have played them all multiple times.  I don't care if the
calculations of light years is off (or whatever nerd detail people think
was missed).  I don't look at minutia.  I enjoyed the story.  I studied
British history yet I still love Braveheart.  Is it historically
accurate?  Hell no...but it was an awesome movie.

Ok I am going to take a big step here, since some folks asked me personnaly to give them my input... I hope it goes better than the last time, and I hope that some people can deal with it, without me having to explain myself. I wont go into details exactly for this reason. But I will make it as thorough as my time allows me at the moment.

I would also agree that ME3 was the most replayable one of all 3 games. First of the missions in ME3 (the main ones) were absolutely and by far the best missions in any of the 3 games. That is in my opinion. Like I said before the ending of Mass Effect starts once you begin playing Mass Effect 3 and I consider it  unfair to call ending the last 20 minutes. The entire game is built around conclusion. Look at the genophage missions, it was simply beautiful, or the geth/quarian conflict which was amazing. Actually one of the best missions for me was Legion's side mission in that geth server... up to that point the player wasnt sure what was truth and what wasnt behind this conflict and when you realise what the quarians did you actually feel different about the Geth. An amazing feeling right there one that made me rethink about synthetics and that played a pivotal role in my final decision and it works wonders with the ending in general (organics vs synthetics). The only disappointing mission was the one in earth. Yes I expected more there in terms of pace and gameplay. The Suicide Mission was the best and I hope at something similar yet more epic in scale. In ME3 it wasnt a bad mission, but it wasnt as good as it could have been.

Mass Effect 3 had also the best side missions. Sure the Citadel fetch quests were kinda lore centric (and some of them very interesting) or just boring like the ones in ME1, but the proper side quests were amazing, like the nuke in Tuchanka, or the Grissom Academy, or the Monastery, the Legion stuff etc etc.

Mass Effect 3 also had the best combat by far. Sorry but the combat in ME1 was abysmal. ME1 was an amazing game but the gameplay/shooting mechanic was subpar according to my opinion always. The biotic combos where better than ever the technical department was extremely beautiful (although I regret seeing the film grain effect being removed...) , the sound was unbelievable, with biotic detonations being the most badass combat feel ever and the music was wonderfull for the most part, a mixture of pure sci fi from 1 with the more holywwod like score of 2.

The cast of Mass Effect 3 was not as good as the cast in Mass effect 2 (which is the game with the best cast I have ever played seriously...so diverse and interesting in every way), but still.... you get Liara back and Kaidan/Ashley (although I hate Ashley) and Javik/EDI were amazing too. Loved the fan service with all the dialogues aboard the normandy some of which were between characters that would have been dead in other peoples saves.

Now as far as the story adn why I liked it and why I felt my journey was complete? Because everything you do in ME3 is a sense of closure, because I said my goodbyes to all my characters one way or another, I tried to save Mordin but I couldnt and I was very emotional to see him go, only to feel happy about Wrex and the Krogan being finally cured...amazing contrast of emotions, all I want from a good story, then I tried to sympathize with the quarians and considered the Geth dangerous (minous Legion) yet when I saw the truth unravel before my eyes it was a complete turnaround.... another amazing moment for me, especially when I saw Legion sacrifice himself and becoming even more "human" than most humans out there. Nearly cried when I heard him say "I know Tali, But Thank you. Keelah Se Lai".

The moments with garrus on top of the Citadel in a Shootout contest, my moments with my romanced Liara, my goodbye to Thane my final moment with Liara.....I mean... it was GOOD STUFF... emotional stuff... stuff that is actually ENDING MATERIAL ALL OF THESE.

The conflict with the illusive man was another highlight, which in my opinion was handled with care and with dignity and not some lame shootout (we had lame shootout with Leng...). Then the moments whith Anderson atop a creepy part of the citadel full of dead bodies with a Shepard completely drained emotionaly, psychologically and organically. As a player I felt the same, I felt Shepard's strugle, i was emotional when Anderson just draw his last breath with the earth on the background in flames and Reapers and the whole galaxy in war. I was emotional when Hackett called and told you that it doesnt work and you need to do something on your end.... and you had nothing left in you, both as a player and as Shepard.

And then the "ending" as many people call it and I disagree for the reasons I explained above. I liked it. I really did, I am sorry if that bursts your bubble, but ,especially with the extra dialogue options of EC, I ENJOYED IT. I liked the fact that I was the difference in a countelss, endless amount of cycles where history simply repeated itself and organics where always in conflict with their synthertics creations. I loved the fact that I was the one who proved that the galaxy can stand united, that the Starchild's solution was imperfect, even by only a slim margin. I was mesmerized by the visuals atop the citadel and the music while I was having this discussion. I was pleased that I learned who the Reapers were, why they were doing what they were doing, the revelation that they do not act out of hatred, or satisfaction, but out of need (according to their mathematical logic and not the logic of an organic), not their need though, the need of many. (again as they saw it through their "eyes")

I love it that I had the last minute revelation that the Illusive Man was RIGHT after all in his quest. He indeed used questionable methods and ended up being indoctrinated in the end, but he was indeed correct in his beliefs and quests. Right there I paused the first time, questioning my entire relationship with the IM. And then yes I loved that the ending I chose (control/paragon) was the ending I always dreamed of. No, I do not like sugarcoated endings, no I do not like cinderella stuff.... I started ME3 and I knew, even wanted, that Shepard had to do the ultimate thing.

I loved to see that my actions not only stopped the reapers but helped the galaxy evolve tremendously via reaper tech. I loved that all my survivng friends had a future, that the Krogans were cured, the Quarians had a home, the Geth earned UNDERSTANDING. And I cried when I saw my romance Liara put my name on the Normandy and then watch it take off and fly away, as if saying that the Normandy is still out there, doing what it was always doing...protecting the Galaxy and my Liara is still out there, and I live on through all of these characters I helped and they helped me...

YES I LOVED THE ENDING. IT IS MY ENDING.

And that my friends is only a FRACTION of what I have to say to justify why I "liked" ME3 and the "ending".

Modifié par Valkyre4, 04 mars 2013 - 02:55 .

[PSUHammer]

I think you hit on an important point. The "ending" isn't just the final Priority Earth mission. The whole game, in a sense, is the ending. Curing the genophage (or not), making peace between the Geth and Quarians (or not), ending Cerberus, and, finally pushing on Earth. The "goodbyes" to your comrades took place during the game.

[mvaning]

ME3 was such a great game that they had to reduce the box price to 20$ while some older games still retained their original retail value @60$

[PSUHammer]

mvaning wrote...

ME3 was such a great game that they had to reduce the box price to 20$ while some older games still retained their original retail value @60$

Supply and demand.  All depends on sales.  If a company thinks they hit critical mass for the sales of a product, they lower the price to drive up more demand.  Business economics, brother!

[mvaning]

PSUHammer wrote...

mvaning wrote...

ME3 was such a great game that they had to reduce the box price to 20$ while some older games still retained their original retail value @60$

Supply and demand.  All depends on sales.  If a company thinks they hit critical mass for the sales of a product, they lower the price to drive up more demand.  Business economics, brother!

Of course, that's the point.  If ME3 was as well recieved as people in this thread claim, then Bioware would not have to drive down its price to 1/3 its original value.     Other games they have produced did not sink in price so quickly and rightfully so.   You would not lower the price on a product that sells well.  ME3 burned to the ground in alot of reviews and polls.  People are unlikely to buy a product at full price that has such a poor reputation when they can get a better game at a lower price.   

In a gaming market, the reputation of a game is a large factor in driving the market.   You don't have to look at the polls to see how well recieved a game is, just look at its original value and how fast it went down in value.

[CronoDragoon]

mvaning wrote...

Of course, that's the point.  If ME3 was as well recieved as people in this thread claim, then Bioware would not have to drive down its price to 1/3 its original value.     Other games they have produced did not sink in price so quickly and rightfully so.   You would not lower the price on a product that sells well.  ME3 burned to the ground in alot of reviews and polls.  People are unlikely to buy a product at full price that has such a poor reputation when they can get a better game at a lower price.   

In a gaming market, the reputation of a game is a large factor in driving the market.   You don't have to look at the polls to see how well recieved a game is, just look at its original value and how fast it went down in value.

ME2 dipped in sales and price the same way ME3 did. EA tends to overship.

[mvaning]

CronoDragoon wrote...

mvaning wrote...

Of course, that's the point.  If ME3 was as well recieved as people in this thread claim, then Bioware would not have to drive down its price to 1/3 its original value.     Other games they have produced did not sink in price so quickly and rightfully so.   You would not lower the price on a product that sells well.  ME3 burned to the ground in alot of reviews and polls.  People are unlikely to buy a product at full price that has such a poor reputation when they can get a better game at a lower price.   

In a gaming market, the reputation of a game is a large factor in driving the market.   You don't have to look at the polls to see how well recieved a game is, just look at its original value and how fast it went down in value.

ME2 dipped in sales and price the same way ME3 did. EA tends to overship.

No, there is one thing EA is good at and that is milking that cash cow.    ME2 retained higher value for a longer period of time than ME3.


Using another game as an example:  Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.      Its not a bioware game but it is an EA title.    This game was released before ME3, their development branch completely died, destroying any hope of the franchise continueing, yet the product is selling at a higher value than ME3.

Modifié par mvaning, 04 mars 2013 - 04:41 .

[PSUHammer]

mvaning wrote...

PSUHammer wrote...

mvaning wrote...

ME3 was such a great game that they had to reduce the box price to 20$ while some older games still retained their original retail value @60$

Supply and demand.  All depends on sales.  If a company thinks they hit critical mass for the sales of a product, they lower the price to drive up more demand.  Business economics, brother!

Of course, that's the point.  If ME3 was as well recieved as people in this thread claim, then Bioware would not have to drive down its price to 1/3 its original value.     Other games they have produced did not sink in price so quickly and rightfully so.   You would not lower the price on a product that sells well.  ME3 burned to the ground in alot of reviews and polls.  People are unlikely to buy a product at full price that has such a poor reputation when they can get a better game at a lower price.   

In a gaming market, the reputation of a game is a large factor in driving the market.   You don't have to look at the polls to see how well recieved a game is, just look at its original value and how fast it went down in value.

Last I checked...it had a Metacritic score over 90 and sold quite well...best of the series, from what I recall.  They did the same thing with DA2, as well.  And, it has been out a year.  These types of games never sell like FPS.  Since Battlefield and CoD sell tenfold over RPGs, they can sustain sales with the original price longer.  This isn't anything new.