616 réponses à ce sujet

[samgurl775]

 Having an option for a happy ending is key, but there were bigger problems going on with the ending of ME3. Like the giant, gaping plot holes you could drive a truck through. 

[Biotic Sage]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Not this again.... ME3's ending isn't hated because it isn't "happy".

Actually it's hated for a variety of reasons, just as it's liked for a variety of reasons.  I've heard many people argue that it's bad simply because it wasn't a "happy" ending.  Just the facts.

[IanPolaris]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Not this again.... ME3's ending isn't hated because it isn't "happy".

Actually it's hated for a variety of reasons, just as it's liked for a variety of reasons.  I've heard many people argue that it's bad simply because it wasn't a "happy" ending.  Just the facts.

One reason that ME3's ending is disliked is that there is no possibility for a happy ending, but I'd hardly say it's the main reason.

-Polaris

[Ghaleon]

If  you think that is why we complain about  Mass Effect 3  you are very mistaken.

A  sad  bittersweet ending can be great, it just has to be done well which  Mass Effect 3s was not  done  well that beign said i will not get into that in detail here as i know they are two different  teams can't judge one team based on  another.

[Foolsfolly]

Zkyire wrote...

So long as it's not another ending where all the teammates go their separate ways, and the hero disappears even if you were just told that he or she took a new position at court, or married the King/Queen, and nobody knows where he or she is gone.

Right!

Also it brings me right down in DA2. Merrill, Isabela, and Avaline love each other too damn much to split. And Varric's too stable minded and daddy of the team to allow anyone to split for long.

...Sebastain and Anders I can see splitting after that finale.

[AtreiyaN7]

Ever read George R.R. Martin's ASoIaF books? Admiitedly, he hasn't actually finished the whole series yet. However, as far as I can tell, there's s high probability that lots of nice people will keep meeting unpleasant endings (if they haven't already met those unpleasant endings in one of the current books).

The last thing I recall happening to Jon Snow was not good - not good at all. Martin is still telling an interesting story, and ultimately, I don't need and don't really want to see the hero unrealistically defy the odds and come up with some "happy" ending where he rides off into the sunset on a unicorn that farts rainbows.

I want an ending (or endings) that fits with the story, and I don't think that there has to be a stereotypical happy ending for a story to be satisfying.

[Foolsfolly]

Well one of the things that ME and DA differ on significantly is tone.

While both have really funny moments, touching moments, and moments of horror (especially body horror. BioWare loves that ****.) The two franchises are rightfully different in tone.

For one despite all the changes the Warden could do and all the good the Warden could bring to Ferelden... it didn't change the fact that at its core Thedas is a cruel miserable place chopped full of inequality, strife, and death. The characters and even the Warden prevail not because of the setting but in spite of it.

Its a nice dark fantasy universe and I love the holy **** out of Thedas. Very George R.R. Martin like but filtered through Joss Whedon. (I love you, David Gaider, Mary Kirby, and all the others.)

Mass Effect has inequality but it's not institutionalized. It feels more like ignorance instead of cultural beliefs that are bred into generations. It plays with that with the quarians and the geth and that's actually why I dislike every quarian in the series other than Tali.

But overall Mass Effect's a universe where even the criminals are heroes (look at Aria for example). There are bad people (it wouldn't be a game without them) but mostly the bad things are monsters from the dark places beyond our universe. And each game had a diverse cast of characters coming together and kicking the monsters back into the dark.

It's a much much more hopeful universe. I mean there's usually no demon or monster behind the oppression of mages or elves or the casteless or against bas. It's just human cruelty (or qunari). In Mass Effect the vast majority of evil things done in the series (as opposed to just normal criminal organizations) were carried out by people possessed by the Reapers.

That's also why I can't wait for the mage/templar business to conclude. It's far too close to good and evil for my tastes. One side literally has demonic possessions to blame for all the evil done. It's too close to black and white. Bring on the qunari invasion.

Writing from that time are scarce. It was not until after the city was freed that the Qunari's deeds came to light: Children taken from families, forced conversion to the Qunari religion, and brutal labor camps. It's ironic that the old slave quarters of lowtown, still intact after centuries, provided the perfect means for the Qunari to control the city's people. When the famous Orlesian chevalier, Ser Michel Lafaille, rode into the city after finally defeating the Qunari defenders, he wrote, "Kirkwall is full of people with empty eyes that had all independent thought driven from them." When Lafaille was appointed the city's first viscount by the emperor in 7:60 Storm, he made it his mission to undo the religious conditioning. The Lafaille bloodline remained popular enough that when the city finally rebelled against Orlesian rule in 8:05 Blessed, "viscount" remained the enduring title for Kirkwall's rulers despite its origin.

—From Kirkwall: the City of Chains, by Brother Genitivi, 9:24 Dragon

From the History of Kirkwall: Chapter 3 codex entry. Qunari are monsters, captivating, deep, consistently interesting monsters who are smarter than everyone else. They found the secret to fixing all of society's ill... and it's the elimination of society.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 05 mars 2013 - 09:58 .

[wright1978]

samgurl775 wrote...

 Having an option for a happy ending is key, but there were bigger problems going on with the ending of ME3. Like the giant, gaping plot holes you could drive a truck through. 

Indeed

[grumpymooselion]

Wasn't the major issue with ME3 that red/green/blue ending, rather than Shepard 'potentially' dying? Because there's a scene in my ME3 end where I see Shepard breathing. Having a chance to live, or die, is fine with me. I think it was just the outright "pick one" ending that caught me off guard. I was told my actions over the three games would culminate in my ending, but I just got a, "based on your actively ready war resources pick one from anywhere from 1 to 3 of these options." And that's what got me.

So, that was my issue. Shepard dying potentially? That wasn't an issue at all. In fact I loved the little 'after word' by the old man and the child talking about you. Whether you lived or died, you lived on in memory. It was neat. Dying is not a problem.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the ending wasn't the problem, overtly, but the way in which the options to select the potential ending were conveyed. If that makes any sense. If I were to select a story element I didn't like it would have been the dreams and the child/star child. Those bugged me on a, "This seems forced in" level, especially Shepard's reaction to them since Shepard was obviously bothered by this, on their own, with no user side control over whether they cared or not. Sure, if I selected caring, that's fine . . . but that forced, "Shepard cares whether you want them to care or not" thing sort of sidelined the entire paragon/neutral/renegade approach to the game - at least in that particular vein of the story.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 05 mars 2013 - 10:50 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Janan Pacha wrote...

Wasn't the major issue with ME3 that red/green/blue ending, rather than Shepard 'potentially' dying? Because there's a scene in my ME3 end where I see Shepard breathing.

But in order to get that ending you need to sacrifice EDI and the Geth and if you have to sacrifice something in order to get the ending then it isnt happy enough!


But to make everyone happy how about Bioware just implements a "dark/mature" toggle? Those who want their happy rainbow sunshine ending can leave it off and those who do turn it on get told to play the Witcher 3.

[Foolsfolly]

Me copy-pasting from another thread about the ending of ME3:

To be frank, when most people find they dislike something for one reason or another they can simply say "I didn't like it." But when pressed to give reasons for why they disliked something (or liked) it they come up short. And usually it's just a feeling. You either liked it or not sometimes there's a single thing you can point to and sometimes it's much much harder to explain.

And you shouldn't have to explain anyway.

I feel the ending, while certainly not my favorite thing in the series, became a way for people who didn't like the game to give a concrete reason for their disinterest or dislike. That's why it was so overused as the reason the game was bad.

It's a mediocre game for more reasons than that, for me personally I find it boring. It's the first game in the series that's actually boring for long segments of time (basically beginning to Tuchanka all feels like it's one overly long exposition). The ending and I disagree but it's just the most common dislike and nothing else.

People have a need to back up their opinions and it gave a nice clear cut example of the game not reaching its potential.

I joke with friends that ME3 is Debriefing: The Game.

[grumpymooselion]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

Wasn't the major issue with ME3 that red/green/blue ending, rather than Shepard 'potentially' dying? Because there's a scene in my ME3 end where I see Shepard breathing.

But in order to get that ending you need to sacrifice EDI and the Geth and if you have to sacrifice something in order to get the ending then it isnt happy enough!

I didn't do either of those things . . .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Janan Pacha wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

Wasn't the major issue with ME3 that red/green/blue ending, rather than Shepard 'potentially' dying? Because there's a scene in my ME3 end where I see Shepard breathing.

But in order to get that ending you need to sacrifice EDI and the Geth and if you have to sacrifice something in order to get the ending then it isnt happy enough!

I didn't do either of those things . . .

Diddnt you Janan? Diddnt you?

[Vilegrim]

Daralii wrote...

... Or people will throw a tantrum that will blot out the sun.

yes because having the living avatar of unending race war, the most monsterous criminal to have ever existed, come down and tell us we have 3 choices and nothing we have done matters at all, is the same as having an unhappy ending.


All Genocide Baby deserved was unending violation with a fish hook encrusted red hot ******, until the heat death of the universe.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 05 mars 2013 - 02:27 .

[Sir George Parr]

Origins was still doing it better with its endings as they are inclusive.You have got pretty much something for everyone at the end of the game.

[Medhia Nox]

AtreiyanN7: I truly believe, without any real evidence (I believe there's evidence - but it's refutable - so pointless to discuss), that the ending of ASoIaF will end "happily".

Again - I've never read a book where a protagonist hasn't paid "some" price. For anyone who thinks LoTR's had a non-price happy ending - they don't understand the literature.

As for ASoIaF: I think the happy ending you might dread will eventually come in the form of Sansa Stark.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 mars 2013 - 03:16 .

[TUHD]

 Jesus. I actually to ought to report you for flaming....

Difference: Mass Effect revolved around Shephard. Also, most people were angry about the immense plotholes, idiotic reason etc, a minority wanted 'just' a happy ending.

Modifié par TUHD, 05 mars 2013 - 04:04 .

[Zangerfang]

Other then the plot holes and choices not mattering which were somewhat cleared up with the EC I was satisfied with the ending. I read a lot of people complaining about Dragon age 2's ending and a lot of mass effect 3.
The ending for ME3 was not all that bad. Shepard is a true soldier and gets to die a hero. I'd say that is a great way to go. Its how the writers wanted it to be. If you read a great book and were not happy with how it ends would you go to the Authors house and ask him to change it? These games are developed from the imaginations of the writers involved. If players want something different then they should follow MEHEM's example.

Dragon age 2... Yeah what Anders did Really sucks, but without him doing that I'm sure DA3 wouldn't be all that interesting. Granted I didn't enjoy DA2's story as much as DAO but it was still great, and I'm happy with how the story unfolds and leaves you wanting more. It just goes to show how skilled bioware is at getting its players attached to the story and characters that they complain when something isn't the way they expected.

[macrocarl]

I think the DA team should do what they think is best. ME2 could have a happy ending and people still found plenty to complain about - now it's post ME3 and ME2 is some golden child? I've seen this trend with every release (well almost) don't you think the devs are already aware?

[TheJediSaint]

I'm repeating myself, but I think it it is important to remember that the Dragon Age franchise is being developed by a completely different team who have their own ideas on what makes a good (not necessarily happy) ending. As much as I was disappointed with the ending of ME3, I don't think there's much that can be learned from it that's applicable to DA.

[Twisted Path]

With Dragon Age 2 they did seem to cannibalize a lot of elements from Mass Effect 2. There's the dialogue wheel of course, your character being called by their last name and constantly praised and worshiped by everyone, waves of faceless mercenaries to gun...urm...I mean sword-down, and just how they attempted to give a lot of sequences a Die Hard-style action movie feel (just look at the scenes where Hawke delivers a one-liner and dramatically kills a guy with a knife throw, or everything involving Varric.)

A lot of that awesome-action-button stuff fell flat, and I think it was because what works in an action oriented sci-fi shooter just doesn't translate into a fantasy world at all. So I'm really hoping they don't cannibalize any elements from Mass Effect 3, especially the constant use of auto-dialogue and the game deciding PC characterization for you.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 05 mars 2013 - 07:33 .

[Flamingdropbear]

The lack of a happy ending was not the main issue of the ME3 ending, but in the interest of constructive feedback lets look and how to do it right for DAI
Make it Epic- the end of the game should be... well epic. It's the end of a 20 to 60 hour game and you want to leave the gamer with a sense of awe, buzzing about the game, not with a meh feeling. Give us stuff we haven't seen before, like the Reaper Larvae or the Statues in the Gallows.
Make it reflect the entire game- make it use everything we've learnt and reflect the choices we've made. ME2's suicide mission did it perfectly, choices of whether to do the loyalty missions, have we resources gathering for the Normandy upgrades, who we picked for each role in the mission. DAO's choices as to which side to take in each place giving different troops for the final battle.
Make it consistent with the game- no magic in a scifi game or third act villain change, or major shifts in tone.
Keep it moving- ME2 used keeping up with the tech specialist or biotic kept the suicide mission moving at a good pace which helped keep it exciting
Answer more questions than you pose
Give us time to say goodbye- after the boss give us a chance to see what we have acompished, chat to people and see how our actions have affected the world. DAO's party or funeral were good examples.

[Plaintiff]

IanPolaris wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Not this again.... ME3's ending isn't hated because it isn't "happy".

Actually it's hated for a variety of reasons, just as it's liked for a variety of reasons.  I've heard many people argue that it's bad simply because it wasn't a "happy" ending.  Just the facts.

One reason that ME3's ending is disliked is that there is no possibility for a happy ending, but I'd hardly say it's the main reason.

-Polaris

But there is a happy ending. Indeed, depending on your perspective, one might argue that there are only happy endings.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 mars 2013 - 08:47 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Not this again.... ME3's ending isn't hated because it isn't "happy".

Actually it's hated for a variety of reasons, just as it's liked for a variety of reasons.  I've heard many people argue that it's bad simply because it wasn't a "happy" ending.  Just the facts.

Happy endings can be written horribly, too.

I think we should all agree to settle for a good ending.

[ghost_ronin]

Lets not do this again.