616 réponses à ce sujet

[Drunkencelt]

I can accept my first warden died to end the blight. I can not accept Sheppard died after three games.

This is a familiar pattern and it is getting old.

[7Nemesis]

Or simply give it a sad ending where the character dies heroically (no breath scene, just plain death).

[philippe willaume]

David Gaider wrote...

I think arguments about the ME3 ending should be done on the ME3 forums. Not here.

Unless you have something to tie it to DA3 really quickly, I'll lock this down.

Pretty please with a cherry on top, don't do the same in DA :I.  :innocent:
 to be fair thought  even thought it is true that the Star kid is a  specific ME:3 issues pre se. I would say that DA:2 ending suffered of the sort of ailment.
I would say it is more about exposition and contextualisation than actual plot devices or story direction.

 What ME:3 and DA:2  have in common is that the ending is not presented in context of the play through.

it may work with specific play through but it  felt far remove form some play through and most of the time left a felling of the play through being irrelevant.
So given the play through spanned on 3 games, it was more painful in ME:2 than DA:2.

If you take Act II, yes the ending have more variance than the game ending, though it could be argued that the actual Swartzy consequence is the same regardless. but we can relate to those endings because we played the
situation that led to them.
It not that we influenced that situation in any wayshape or form but we were involved.

The mage/templar conflict seems very remotes and I never felt really involved in the conflict, we sort of take position once but it really out of context and it is difficult to feel invested as player.I romanced a mage, and the single clear possition i have taken in the conflict. 

ME:3 does exactly the same thing, I liked the idea of changing the objective of the game at the end of the game and the problem is not there. 

In both case I could not really correlate what I have played and the situation I am left with.
IE:I  believe that DA:2 or ME:3 ending reception don't tell us as much about  the realtive happiness of the ending that it tell us about how we did related to them. 
Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 21 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Dasher1010]

Yes, it's that DA3 needs an ending where the player has an option to have a happy ending without an extended cut.

[Dagr88]

I'll say it again, DA:I needs (from my point of view) "Bioware ending".

At some point some NPC/companion or game itself will say say:
"Are you ready? There is no turning back you know."
And then a bunch of stuff happens.

DA:O ending starts at Landsmeet. Choose a ruler. Kill Loghain or Alistair (exile possible). Can marry a ruler. Ritual. Everything can have several outcomes and makes epilogue more distinguished.

Jage Empire: Ok, there are several ending which most people know and for those who don't I won't spoil them.

For ME2 it's abduction and depending on how you choose to play, after final mission 100% of your crew can survive or just Shepard/Joker or even just Joker.

ME3 - Returned to Earth. Shooting. Goodbyes. More Shooting. Fork. And then Credits. Extended Cut did add Epilogue and some different cutscenes depending on your EMS (good move)...

DA2's ending in that aspect was a bit crippled by status quo (both boss fights needed to happen) but overall it was good and I can see how many small decisions can effect DA:I scenario (presumably a moderate amount of cameos or suggested ones is needed for that).


As for "Happy Ending"... I would gladly exchange it for good epilogue.

Modifié par Dagr88, 21 mars 2013 - 03:37 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Wait, wait, I have it now. I know what the potential end of DA:I will be. It will be done in such a way that the player will know that the Doomed Playable Character will, in fact, be THE de facto bad guy for the next game.

[wright1978]

7Nemesis wrote...

Or simply give it a sad ending where the character dies heroically (no breath scene, just plain death).

Nope there should always be choice as to the fate of the protaganist. Railroaded murder isn't cool.

[Pcmag1]

I don't necessarily agree that ending of D3 has to be happy (I was perfectly happy with sacrificing myself in DA:O) But if answer to
So did protagonist die? is: Maybe
Did it really happen? is: Maybe
and who the hell is the antagonist? is: .....
Then i think a little review is required for any game

[leapingmonkeys]

I disagree.  The primary lesson that Bioware needs to learn from ME3 is that they have to let the *player* determine the outcome.  The people who did ME3 decided that they had a much better ending than anything the players could have done, and then took the game away from the player in the final minutes of the game and substituted their pre-canned ending - ignoring every decision that the player had made over the course of ME1-ME2-ME3.

Bioware's response to hijacking the game?  (The very same game where Bioware had made lots of noise about how the players were determining the course of the game)  They're "artists" - and how dare we complain about their art (despite the fact that prior to the ending of ME3 all of the Bioware hype about the series focused on how the *players* were determining the course of the game).

So, what Bioware needs to learn is that the players are the customers and that the product the customers are buying is being sold as "player-directed-plot", not "artist-hijacked-plot".

Will they learn their lesson?  EA stock is still way below its historical price points.  The CEO just got canned.  The founders of Bioware resigned stating that they "just don't enjoy making games anymore".  The leads on ME3 were reviled.  Facebook campaigns were launched against ME3.  EA was sufficiently under fire that they had to releaase a free DLC just to try to fix the botched ending.  One would think that the world is sending them a very clear message...

But bottom line, this is not the first time that Bioware has made this sort of mistake (witness DA2) and they didn't seem to learn their lesson before.  One would think that the message should be very clear at this point...  I guess it depends on whether the people whose egos caused these disasters (and ME3 was not the only one) are either sufficiently humbled or sufficiently disempowered.

If Bioware wants DA3 to be well received by the paying customers (not the review-for-pay 'critics') then they need to give the *customers* what they want - which is wish-fulfillment and control over their destiny.  Develop the game to provide a *variety* of thematically disperate conclusions (preferably with a variety of plot lines that are actually distinct).  Create choice points in the game where the players' decisions make some plot lines/conclusions possible, and make others impossible.  Provide challenges, compromises - but don't make everything to be an exercise in teenage nihilism.  And if you want to be "artists", paint *several* canvases (and by 'several' I don't mean paint the same picture three times using different colored paints) and let the players' decisions lead to one or the other.

ME3 could have been epic, but a combination of ego and laziness ruined what could have been a history making game.  Has Bioware/EA learned anything?  The optimist in me wants to believe that much of the problem was due to decisions being forced by a few senior people (the CEO of EA who was mostly concerned with cutting costs, the Bioware founders who had clearly lost interest in creating games and  couple project leads who were clearly quite full of themselves) and that with those people gone, or hopefully neutered, that perhaps better, more customer-centric, decisions can happen.  However, only time will tell...

[wright1978]

EntropicAngel wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Nope there should always be choice as to the fate of the protaganist. Railroaded murder isn't cool.

Lol, what?

Tell you what, when you're about to die, why don't you scream out "NO RAILROADED MURDER!!!" and see if that saves you.

What happens to you is in the hands of Bioware.

How you respond to it should be in your hands.

Everything is in the hands of Bioware, so what.  In a choice based RPG game the fate of the protaganist shouldn't be railroaded imo.

[philippe willaume]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Yes, it's that DA3 needs an ending where the player has an option to have a happy ending without an extended cut.

The ending does not neet to be happy per se. The self scarifice ending in DA;0 was perfectly fine.

and from the stand point as to where the story goes, DA:2 and ME:3 ending are fine. as a player i don't need to have the possibility to influence the outcome of the ending

but as a player i need to have an influence on how it plays out. IE the ending need to be exposed and conected to the particular playthrough that is being ended.
and that's where DA:2 and ME:3 failed with a different level of epic.

phil

[philippe willaume]

EntropicAngel wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Nope there should always be choice as to the fate of the protaganist. Railroaded murder isn't cool.

Lol, what?

Tell you what, when you're about to die, why don't you scream out "NO RAILROADED MURDER!!!" and see if that saves you.

What happens to you is in the hands of Bioware.

How you respond to it should be in your hands.

it is not about how it ends, it about  making waht we have done fits how its end.
If we accept that the story is the progativbe of the author, (which i beleive it is) . it goes that it is the responsability of the author to make it make sense the playthrough. 

Phil

[Jaulen]

I loved DA:O that had the ability to have the Warden die, have someone die in your place, or to not die at all.....talk about role playing/replayability....

Liked that in DA:2 Hawke stirred up a horents nest and just *poofed* (mystery! speculation for all!)

Did not like that ME3 pretty much (except for one potential ending interpretation) Shep 'dies'. All these choices get funneled to one basic outcome. For a game like ME3 I would have liked the possibility for a heroic save the galaxy Shep lives ending (very hard to get) to a utter 'you failed' ending....all based on decisions you had done in the game (I mean, make those war assets actually MEAN something)

I love tragic stories where the hero sacrifices themselves for the greater good....but I also like happy endings.

[Iakus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Nope there should always be choice as to the fate of the protaganist. Railroaded murder isn't cool.

Lol, what?

Tell you what, when you're about to die, why don't you scream out "NO RAILROADED MURDER!!!" and see if that saves you.

What happens to you is in the hands of Bioware.

How you respond to it should be in your hands.

So much for choice and consequences, then...

[zyntifox]

Don't think the lesson is to have an happy ending to DA3. I think the lesson is to have a ending to DA3 that is thematically consistent with the series.

[Jimmyson3]

Happy, not neccessarily. Just satisfying, this is the end, this is what happened to those who followed me, these are how my choices affected the world, I chose this path.

[Jessihatt]

philippe willaume wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Yes, it's that DA3 needs an ending where the player has an option to have a happy ending without an extended cut.

The ending does not neet to be happy per se. The self scarifice ending in DA;0 was perfectly fine.

I think the self sacrifice was good because you could avoid it.
Some people wanted tragedy and heartbreak.
I thought agreeing to the dark ritual as a warden romancing Alistair or Morrigan was heartbreaking enough (but I'm a girly girl). The dark ritual was a happy ending, as was having a fellow warden sacrifice themselves for you, there was a choice. That's what I would call a bittersweet ending.

i would like endings more like Origins than Mass Effect 3. Whilst a great game, ending(s) was a kick in the teeth.

[NUM13ER]

To be honest having an ending that is satisfying and reflects choices is the only lesson to be learned.

There's this false notion most fans were demanding a fan-fic fairytale ending. A notion I feel was mostly cooked up by people trying to silence genuine criticism and disappointment.

Inquisition can quite happily kill off the main hero if the story dictates it, so long as it makes that death meaningful. Some people can't handle a bittersweet ending I'll admit but those people need to broaden their horizons. I can't imagine how dull my movie collection would be if every movie ended with the hero winning and losing nothing.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 21 mars 2013 - 09:28 .

[goose2989]

That was never the biggest issue behind the Mass Effect 3 ending. I admit, I wanted a much more cheerful ending, but that's not what made it so disastrous. The ending was met so poorly because it simply didn't make sense, and even with the Extended Cut, still doesn't make much sense.

[wright1978]

CommanderJessica wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Yes, it's that DA3 needs an ending where the player has an option to have a happy ending without an extended cut.

The ending does not neet to be happy per se. The self scarifice ending in DA;0 was perfectly fine.

I think the self sacrifice was good because you could avoid it.
Some people wanted tragedy and heartbreak.
I thought agreeing to the dark ritual as a warden romancing Alistair or Morrigan was heartbreaking enough (but I'm a girly girl). The dark ritual was a happy ending, as was having a fellow warden sacrifice themselves for you, there was a choice. That's what I would call a bittersweet ending.

i would like endings more like Origins than Mass Effect 3. Whilst a great game, ending(s) was a kick in the teeth.

Yes sacrifice ending is great because there are alternate fates for the protaganist.

[inversevideo]

dat thread title! Sounds like a job for Varric.

I agree with @Commander Jessica - The DA:O endings were well done and very satisfying; and seemed to provide plenty of choice to the player. I do hope DA:3 can pull off the same type of closure.

Modifié par inversevideo, 21 mars 2013 - 11:04 .

[philippe willaume]

CommanderJessica wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Yes, it's that DA3 needs an ending where the player has an option to have a happy ending without an extended cut.

The ending does not neet to be happy per se. The self scarifice ending in DA;0 was perfectly fine.

I think the self sacrifice was good because you could avoid it.
Some people wanted tragedy and heartbreak.
I thought agreeing to the dark ritual as a warden romancing Alistair or Morrigan was heartbreaking enough (but I'm a girly girl). The dark ritual was a happy ending, as was having a fellow warden sacrifice themselves for you, there was a choice. That's what I would call a bittersweet ending.

i would like endings more like Origins than Mass Effect 3. Whilst a great game, ending(s) was a kick in the teeth.

Hello CJ 

don't get me wrong I would like very much the ending to be of the same caliber as Origin  or ME:2 rather than ME3 or DA:2

I am a manly man, and there was moments I found heartbreaking in DA:0 or ME:3 for that mater (the geneohage cure and the Geth/Quarian).
Honestly  given a choice,  i will work towards the happy ending. Unlike Lamartine i  don't rejoice in my own
emotional suffering. 

What i was trying to get at was that I don't need a happy ending. the writers can finishes the story as they wishes but i want the ending to make senses and acknowledge my play through.

And DA:0  sis really a great job at that. and really it is done by bringing back during the epilogue so it not even that
clever.

but at the end of DA:0. i have closure for the main story arc, the side story and the companion and all of those reflect my play through.

DA:2 or ME:3 just don't do that. and for me it a much greater cause of grief than a happy ending being possible or not.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 22 mars 2013 - 07:32 .

[mopotter]

Xellith wrote...

I dont want ONLY a happy ending. I want a wide VARIETY of options where the choices I made influence the outcome.

This.  So much this.  

If I'm given choices in the game I want those choices reflected in the ending.  I don't want all choices to lead to the same ending good or bad.

[mopotter]

philippe willaume wrote...

CommanderJessica wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Yes, it's that DA3 needs an ending where the player has an option to have a happy ending without an extended cut.

The ending does not neet to be happy per se. The self scarifice ending in DA;0 was perfectly fine.

I think the self sacrifice was good because you could avoid it.
Some people wanted tragedy and heartbreak.
I thought agreeing to the dark ritual as a warden romancing Alistair or Morrigan was heartbreaking enough (but I'm a girly girl). The dark ritual was a happy ending, as was having a fellow warden sacrifice themselves for you, there was a choice. That's what I would call a bittersweet ending.

i would like endings more like Origins than Mass Effect 3. Whilst a great game, ending(s) was a kick in the teeth.

Hello CJ 

don't get me wrong I would like very much the ending to be of the same caliber as Origin  or ME:2 rather than ME3 or DA:2

I am a manly man, and there was moments I found heartbreaking in DA:0 or ME:3 for that mater (the geneohage cure and the Geth/Quarian).
Honestly  given a choice,  i will work towards the happy ending. Unlike Lamartine i  don't rejoice in my own
emotional suffering. 

What i was trying to get at was that I don't need a happy ending. the writers can finishes the story as they wishes but i want the ending to make senses and acknowledge my play through.

And DA:0  sis really a great job at that. and really it is done by bringing back during the epilogue so it not even that
clever.

but at the end of DA:0. i have closure for the main story arc, the side story and the companion and all of those reflect my play through.

DA:2 or ME:3 just don't do that. and for me it a much greater cause of grief than a happy ending being possible or not.

Phil

I do want one happy ending, doubt that I'll buy it without one being an option.  Life can be depressing enough, i don't need a video game to reinforce this.  But I don't want just one ending if we have choices through out the game.

One of the things I liked about ME2, which I'm currently playing again, was the fairly wide ending options you had depending on your choices.  I had a range of survival endings, everyone did not survive in ever game.  And it makes the game very entertaining for me.

I'd love for something like that in DA3.  I also liked the blurb at the end of DA:O  about the companions. For my character, I mostly just need to know  they survived with their LI and have left the country to get on with their life.  If there is a LI.  Otherwise my character is traveling the country righting wrongs, or robbing the rich.  

Modifié par mopotter, 22 mars 2013 - 08:26 .