616 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

This needs to have something to do with DA3 to remain on-topic. The only thing I've seen in this whole Catalyst pedantry that's vaguely on topic is the following question: "A confrontation with the antagonist is a stupid way to end the game?" Of course that's not a stupid way to end a game. That would not be a stupid way to end DA3. But it is not a confrontation with the antagonist that happens in ME3, because we didn't know until the final 10 minutes that the Catalyst was the antagonist. We have not been clashing for the past three games against a powerful regulatory being who claims that the great galactic problem is synthetics vs. organics, but against the Reapers. We have not been charged for the past three games with solving that Catalyst's problem but with solving our problem of being wiped out by the Reapers. Mock the "new villain in 10 minutes" thing all you like, but as far as Shepard and the player are concerned, this character and its demands come out of nowhere. This is not something I would want to see in another game, such as DA3. I would like the final confrontation to occur in continuity with already-established relationships, intensifying pre-existing themes rather than doing a 180-turn on them.

To sum up my argument against your "the Catalyst isn't a problem" statement: I said that the Catalyst was the issue "at least in the way that it exists in ME3." We don't have any other Catalyst but this one: a character that frustrates our aims and subsumes our desires to its own. If the Reaper AI had not done this, then it might not have been such a big issue. But it did. So it was. Stating that this is the issue I have with the ending is useful feedback. Again, I don't want this to happen in another Bioware game, particularly DA3, and I contrast the Catalyst's RGB choice with Morrigan's dark ritual choice to show the weaknesses of the former and the strengths of the latter.

[bmwcrazy]

krul2k wrote...

no victory ever comes without cost

It's true, but having video game protagonists getting killed off left and right, it can get boring after a while.

Like whenever I play a Call of Duty or Battlefield/Medal of Honor game, I just expect myself to die in the end and that's what usually happens.

Modifié par bmwcrazy, 26 mars 2013 - 10:15 .

[RepHope]

bmwcrazy wrote...

krul2k wrote...

no victory ever comes without cost

It's true, but having video game protagonists getting killed off left and right, it can get boring after a while.

Like whenever I play a Call of Duty or Battlefield/Medal of Honor game, I just expect myself to die in the end and that's what usually happens.

Is it just me or is everyone killing off their protagonists these days? The "happy ending" is becoming less of a cliche and more of a rarity these days. Now everything seems to be the same Downer Ending or Bittersweet Ending, with less and less happy endings. I hope DA3 has one ME3s lack of one was a blow against it in imo. ME was a space opera so I don't think it was too unreasonable to expect a happy ending. That said well see what DA3 brings.

[l7986]

I thought the lesson for DA:I from ME3 was to do a proper epilogue. I'm all for the devs trying out new things, but please dont try to fix things that aren't broken.

[malakim2099]

Dunno if it was mentioned before, but as long as the ending of DA:I doesn't involve a choice between:

1. Destroying all tainted things, including the Wardens and all the Darkspawn.
2. Taking control of the Darkspawn and ruling the world as a hopefully benevolent God-King
3. Combining all life with the Taint to create unity for all eternity

I'm golden, personally.

(And if someone else beat me to it, all props to them, I'm not skimming this big a thread for one specific thing.) :innocent:

As someone who is still scarred by ME3 (I couldn't play the campaign after that ending, though I tried a few times), it wasn't the happy ending, so much as the fact that you were railroaded into one of three awful choices. Look, my Shepard? She's basically Kirk. She's a player, and she doesn't give up. Ever. And in that ending? She gave up. And it just blew my mind, and not in a fun way.  I mean, come on, we couldn't have EDI hack the living heck out of that Catalyst?

(NOTE: I played before the extended cut came out.)

Don't take a space opera and twist it into some 2001ish wannabe in the last 10 minutes. It just doesn't work. That's the lesson kids.

Modifié par malakim2099, 27 mars 2013 - 03:38 .

[Willowhugger]

How long until the ME3 jokes die down? Really?

[Well]

To me it wasn't just the ending.There were two well written portions and the rest seemed like average at best.DA 2 was about the same.I think they need to borrow the writer who did the IA story in SWTOR.That was DAO quality.I reset the final mission and did it again.

[redBadger14]

I would assume David Gaider and his writing team knows what they're doing, and just because people were up-in-arms about ME3's ending doesn't mean DA:I should have a happy ending.

The problem with a happy ending is that it needs to make sense in the story to begin with. Tossing a happy ending in, due to reasons of "it should just be there," is not a very powerful story tool. There need to be other choices, appropriate consequences with those choices, and with Dragon Age, the endings need to lead into the next game.

In other words, David and his team are working on the story, and if they find a happy ending does not fit, they won't write it in. Or, maybe they don't want a happy ending with their story. At the end of the day, it's their story to write and tell, and no matter their decision, I trust they'll make the right one.

[Nykara]

I am honestly just over sad/bittersweet/bad endings in general. I'm not afraid to admit that I want to see a full, happy win for a change. I don't count ME1 and ME2 in that, although they were not sad endings - I also knew that they were not endings at all because ME was always going to be a trilogy. DA:O for example, my warden died. The only way to prevent that was to either allow someone else to die or allow Morrigan to have some evil demon spawn child. There was no good choices there. The same with ME3 imo. I will admit I have not played DA2 as of yet, I do intend to at some point I just haven't gotten there. For once I would just like to feel as if every effort taken throughout the game, allows me to win in to the end and have it feel like a win.

[sarmatian1]

The main lesson of ME3 is to give the Inquisitor an ending that makes sense!!!

[Noelemahc]

The main lesson of ME3 is that if the plot leaks before release, you listen to the feedback and change the things people hate. Not keep the things people hate and change everything else for the worse.

The secondary lesson of ME3 is that if the fanbase is rabid on day one of release, the fanbase is rabid on day fifteen or release and the fanbase is rabid on day forty of release, it might be a good idea to at least come out and talk to them instead of first saying nothing's wrong and then hiding in a bunker for half a year.

The tertiary lesson of ME3 (and one of the main lessons of DA2) is that putting plot-relevant revelations into day-one DLC is a Bad Thing To Do and will make the fanbase even more rabid.

The ultimate lesson of ME3 is to RESPECT YOUR FANBASE. These are the people that will (or won't) be buying your next game come hell or high water. BioWare lost all the credit it earned with DAO and ME2 through the way it handled itself with SWTOR, DA2 and ME3 and it hinges on DAI whether it will win any back.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 29 mars 2013 - 09:14 .

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

i thought the main lesson is to let the Inquisitor bang blue aliens

[Heimdall]

Noelemahc wrote...
The main lesson of ME3 is that if the plot leaks before release, you listen to the feedback and change the things people hate. Not keep the things people hate and change everything else for the worse.

The secondary lesson of ME3 is that if the fanbase is rabid on day one of release, the fanbase is rabid on day fifteen or release and the fanbase is rabid on day forty of release, it might be a good idea to at least come out and talk to them instead of first saying nothing's wrong and then hiding in a bunker for half a year.

The tertiary lesson of ME3 (and one of the main lessons of DA2) is that putting plot-relevant revelations into day-one DLC is a Bad Thing To Do and will make the fanbase even more rabid.

The ultimate lesson of ME3 is to RESPECT YOUR FANBASE. These are the people that will (or won't) be buying your next game come hell or high water. BioWare lost all the credit it earned with DAO and ME2 through the way it handled itself with SWTOR, DA2 and ME3 and it hinges on DAI whether it will win any back.

I don't recall the plot of ME3 being leaked.  The only thing I heard was leaked was an early and very different version of the script.

I've always found it rather absurd to expect a company to publically bash their own product, as some seem to want them to, they do need to sell it to make back their costs whether the fanbase likes it or not.

Javik had some lore relevancy, but his plot relevancy was small if any.  I'm unsure what DA2 did.  The only thing DA2 had at day one was Sebastion and most of hisself contained.  I guess you could argue the Leliana cameo, but of everything that was hardly the reason people were angry with DA2.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 mars 2013 - 11:24 .

[crimzontearz]

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

[Heimdall]

crimzontearz wrote...

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

But were any of the options really happy endings?  Somebody had to die or you have to make a deal with the devil so to speak.  I think part of the issue is a matter of defining what qualifies as a happy ending.  I thought DA:O got it just right too, I just think there were no perfectly happy endings.  DA2 just sort of left you hanging and the ME3 endings have been lambasted ad nauseum.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 mars 2013 - 12:14 .

[crimzontearz]

Lord Aesir wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

But were any of the options really happy endings?  Somebody had to die or you have to make a deal with the devil so to speak.  I think part of the issue is a matter of defining what qualifies as a happy ending.  I thought DA:O got it just right too, I just think there were no perfectly happy endings.  DA2 just sort of left you hanging and the ME3 endings have been lambasted ad nauseum.

It was happy enough and people had options

Vampire: the masquerade - Redemption handled endings flawlessly IMHO....Bioware devs should play it

[LolaLei]

crimzontearz wrote...

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

My thoughts exactly!

Why not have a bunch of different endings with various different outcomes ranging from "bad guys win" to "hero dies" and "hero lives" etc, like DA:O did. That way, everyone wins.

[LolaLei]

crimzontearz wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

But were any of the options really happy endings?  Somebody had to die or you have to make a deal with the devil so to speak.  I think part of the issue is a matter of defining what qualifies as a happy ending.  I thought DA:O got it just right too, I just think there were no perfectly happy endings.  DA2 just sort of left you hanging and the ME3 endings have been lambasted ad nauseum.

It was happy enough and people had options

Vampire: the masquerade - Redemption handled endings flawlessly IMHO....Bioware devs should play it

What happens at the end of that? I've only played Bloodlines.

[Sanunes]

LolaLei wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

My thoughts exactly!

Why not have a bunch of different endings with various different outcomes ranging from "bad guys win" to "hero dies" and "hero lives" etc, like DA:O did. That way, everyone wins.

Like movies they can only do so much with the end of a game and even if they did give some people want they consider a "happy ending" I am pretty sure the anger would still be around because its not the ending the person envisioned.  The problem is with Dragon Age: Origins the protagionist was around for only one game, Shepard was around for three and that causes attachment, for even with The Extended Cut people were complaining about the slides at the end and thats exactly what Dragon Age: Origins offered.

[Heimdall]

crimzontearz wrote...

It was happy enough and people had options

Vampire: the masquerade - Redemption handled endings flawlessly IMHO....Bioware devs should play it

Only played Bloodlines, but I'll take your word for it.

My major concern is that all endings being "equal" with drawbacks that make all the happy enough endings a matter of choice rather than any single perfect ending.  That's my major worry with all this discussion of happy endings.

[crimzontearz]

LolaLei wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Just saying...how about, you know, THE OPTION for one? Because DAO did a great job with that and virtually everyone was pleased

Is there something wrong with OPTIONS or something?

But were any of the options really happy endings?  Somebody had to die or you have to make a deal with the devil so to speak.  I think part of the issue is a matter of defining what qualifies as a happy ending.  I thought DA:O got it just right too, I just think there were no perfectly happy endings.  DA2 just sort of left you hanging and the ME3 endings have been lambasted ad nauseum.

It was happy enough and people had options

Vampire: the masquerade - Redemption handled endings flawlessly IMHO....Bioware devs should play it

What happens at the end of that? I've only played Bloodlines.

Vukodlak, the big bad, has kidnapped your loved one made her into his Ghoul for over 500 years while you were in Torpor and is now about to gain near unlimited power to rule the world and kill the Antediluvian vampires before they awaken to bring forth the Gehenna.

At the end you face him and you can

•fight him and kill him. Doing so Aniezka is about to die because as a ghoul without her Master's blood she will age and die in minutes but you bite her and turn het into a vampire and can live forever together although one day you know the Antediluvians will rise

• submit to Vukodlak as he promises you to spare you and Aniezka in his rule...but as soon as he has bound you with blood insuring your undying loyalty he makes you kill Aniezka and you become his second in command compelled by the blood oath but still aware of how monstrous your future is (and you must scream)

• if you played like a soulless monster you can attack him before he even finishes his speech and drain him of his blood and soul absorbing his power, killing aniezka because you are now a blood god and rule the world

AWESOMENESS


 
(also bloodlines butchered the lore)

[Sylvianus]

No, the main lesson is to give a good ending. ( Okay, not too depressive either, but not necessarily happy with rainbows )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 29 mars 2013 - 07:13 .

[Nefla]

Well wrote...

To me it wasn't just the ending.There were two well written portions and the rest seemed like average at best.DA 2 was about the same.I think they need to borrow the writer who did the IA story in SWTOR.That was DAO quality.I reset the final mission and did it again.

Samehere, I never understood all the "it was a great game until the last 10 minutes!" Statements. Also I believe the lead writer for the imperial side in swtor was Drew Karpyshyn the original lead writer of Mass Effect (1 and 2) correct me if I'm wrong.

[Il Divo]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I don't recall the plot of ME3 being leaked.  The only thing I heard was leaked was an early and very different version of the script.

That was what Bioware claimed in the months before release, if I recall correctly. But when ME3 finally hit, judging by what others said, the leaks were pretty spot on.

[Get Magna Carter]

David Gaider wrote...

I think arguments about the ME3 ending should be done on the ME3 forums. Not here.

Unless you have something to tie it to DA3 really quickly, I'll lock this down.

I would like to discuss the ME3 ending on the ME3 boards but Bioware won't let me register my copy and won't let unregistered users post on any ME3 board including General Discussion.
(So if I post too much about it here it's Bioware's fault).

I'll try to be general
I think that the people working on the ME3 ending didn't put enough thought into the implications of what they were showing,  they had too much belief that it would be interpreted the way they wanted it to be interpreted without enough thought into how people may see it.
(The extended cut ended up reversing things so much as to leave questions as to why it was done that way in the first place).
The fundamental question of whether the 2 conflicting parties (organics and A.I.s) could peacefully co-exist seemed to get particularly messed up (the game as a whole suggests yes but the ending contradicts this and enforces a no except it still needs to be a yes to prevent players favouring the "wrong" ending). 

So Dragon Age 3 needs more thought into the implications of the ending
(and preferably be better than "you kill all the bad guys, get chased out of the city and disappear 1 year later")