616 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerxes52]

Icinix wrote...

No. The main lesson is to have ending dialogue, structure, characters and events make sense with the game.

Happy / Sad / Horribly Depressing - doesn't make a crap of different on enjoyment levels - but if a player is sitting there going 'wait, this doesn't make sense' that's going to kill it and kill it good for a l of people.

This.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dave of Canada: All of that is well and good - but sometimes people get their cake and eat it too.

I've written the quote several times on these boards - and I'll do it again.

"Carol Connelly: OK, we all have these terrible stories to get over, and you-...

Melvin Udall: It's not true. Some of us have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that's their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good. " - As Good As It Gets

Not putting a "cake and eat it too ending" isn't more mature - or more realistic. It's just embittered sour grapes - and a reach for false emotion.

Now - if you want to argue that the "cake and eat it too ending" should be based on sacrifice of other goals and hard to reach obstacles - that's another story.

To repeat: "What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you're that pissed that so many others had it good." 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 mars 2013 - 04:12 .

[JamieCOTC]

That's not what was wrong w/ ME3. If the Inquisitor goes on a peyote trip, uncovers characters and plot elements out of the blue in the last five minutes and the story abruptly ends, then we may have a problem.

[perfect_victime]

andrew252 wrote...

here's hoping that not at the end a deamon comes up and offers you 3 things it can do to end the game

How dare you give away the ending

[duckley]

As always - an interesting discussion. Here are some of my random  thoughts

In life, the choices we make sometimes do not matter. There are forces that exist that are beyond our control, knowledge, or understanding. The best laid plans, choices and intentions can  sometimes amount to diddly squat. That is one of the most frustrating (and depressing) realities of life IMO. Seeing that played out in a beloved video game did not sit well with some fans.

I agree with those who have said it was not about a happily-ever-after ending. I do understand the desire for an ending to be reasonably consistent with lore. In accepting the premise that  choices don't aways yeild desired outcomes l  can deal with the fact that my choices in ME or DA2 may not have influenced the outcome to the degree I would have liked or at all. Not being a dedicated student of the ME series, and having done the extended cut only, the ending was fine for me. However, I fully appreciated the upset.

What I also finding interesting is how game writers can balance what some fans may want with the direction they want to take a story. If Mr. Gaider's vision of Thedas is that ultimately it should be a world without Mages should he proceed with that premise, but risk the wrath of DA Mage lovers? After all it is the universe that he created (or at least I think it is- appologies to other  DA writers), and yet, it is the fan who purchases the product that presumably pays his salary and  enables to write his story. My personal view point is that the writer should pretty much write his/her story and hope it engages the majority. I do believe both ME and DA have done so in spades!
e

I just think it is tough to please everyone.I do believe writers put thier heart and soul into their work but sometimes the choices we make  dont matter...lol


Oh and Mr. Gaider.... lets keep Mages

Modifié par duckley, 03 mars 2013 - 05:11 .

[ashesandwine]

Stop being silly. I don't think most people hated the ME3 ending because it wasn't a "happy ending". The endings before the Extended DLC were full of plot holes and such.

[Nefla]

andrew252 wrote...

here's hoping that not at the end a deamon comes up and offers you 3 things it can do to end the game

**semi-confirmed DA3 ending spoilers**

      Setting: The inquisitor has traveled far and wide, fought many battles in order to bring peace to Thedas. His companions helping him achieve triumph and offering support every step of the way. He finally comes before a great battlefield where hoards of abominations and demons threaten to engulf all, mages and templars alike. The armies of mages and templars are vastly outnumbered and overpowered, but the inquisitor through his trials and tribulations has learned many of their weaknesses and if he shares his knowledge with the gathered troops, together they stand a fighting chance!
      Instead the inquisitor decides not to reveal anything he's learned about enemy weaknesses because he spent all of his resources building a mysterious magical banana which no one has ever completed and no one knows what it does. Yet surely this magical banana will be the end of their troubles! Instead of hit and run/covert tactics against a superior force, the inquisitor sacrifices most of his troops to get the banana onto the tallest cliff overlooking the battle and places it in the conveniently placed banana holder. Suddenly out of the banana an alien gray appears and tells the inquisitor that it has secretly controlled the demons and abominations for all 3 games without anyone ever hearing about him. All he really wants is to PROTECT everyone from being killed by the Qunari (who alien gray being out of the loop as he is missed the part where the Qunari became the inquisitor's allies not 2 weeks before) by sending his demons and abominations to kill them first!
     The inquisitor doesn't really want to be killed by demons OR Qunari so alien gray offers him 3 choices:
                  1)The inquisitor must jump to his death off the cliff and onto some sharp spikes, and that will somehow turn everyone in the world into an abomination and everything will be a song-singing, hand-holding abomination love-fest ruled by the iron fist of alien gray
                   2) The inquisitor must grab onto 2 red-hot pokers from the blacksmith forge that randomly appeared 2 feet away and this will kill him and cause a new archdemon to be born with the inquisitor's personality but not his morals or emotions and he will take alien gray's place as the supreme leader of the abominations and demons
                   3)The inquisitor must break a stone pot and that disheartenes the enemy so much that all the abominations and demons agree to just commit suicide including alien gray, also all the elves become extinct for some reason...and Fereldan might be burned to a crisp and the inquisitor and everyone he ever loved die a horrible firey death if you didn't play multiplayer

Sounds legit!

[LliiraAnna]

IMO, the happy ending just does not suit ME. But if such kind of an ending wouldn't look out of place in DA3 - why not? All kinds of endings are ok, as long as they don't break the atmosphere of the game and are more or less logical. I know there were some problems with logic in ME3 - but apart from it, I'm content with how it ended.

Modifié par LliiraAnna, 03 mars 2013 - 07:29 .

[Robhuzz]

ashesandwine wrote...

Stop being silly. I don't think most people hated the ME3 ending because it wasn't a "happy ending". The endings before the Extended DLC were are full of plot holes and such.

There. Fixed.

Anyway. Great points being made around here. I'd say make a story that is consistent and makes sense (within the fantasy setting of the game) and refrain from rewriting established characters (personally HATE it when that happens) and make the endings accordingly and I doubt there will be any backlash. On that point at least.

[PaulSX]

The criticisms towards DAII's and ME3's endings mainly centered around how they do not reflect the plot choices. BTW, I thought Dragon Age origins handled the endings pretty well and do not know why BioWare does not design games like that anymore.

[nightcobra]

can't we all agree that the best case scenario would be a full spectrum of black, white and grey endings (not just dark or sad or happy, give me the whole shebang) dependent on the player's choices, as well as the absence of plot-holes or macguffins introduced at the end that badly resolve the game's main conflict.
oh...and an epilogue chapter to see how things turned out to the main characters/party members/important npcs...but that may be just me.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 03 mars 2013 - 08:34 .

[imbs]

suntzuxi wrote...

The criticisms towards DAII's and ME3's endings mainly centered around how they do not reflect the plot choices. BTW, I thought Dragon Age origins handled the endings pretty well and do not know why BioWare does not design games like that anymore.

too much brain/effort required.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Dasher1010 wrote...

That's the truth. Just make the Inquisitor able to have an ending where he/she lives if it's a completionist playthrough.

And here I thought people were saying that wasnt the case? Guess that was a lie then.

KingsTiger wrote...

Makes perfect sense to me. There is a place for dark endings, brutal lessons that sometimes you just can't win. A videogame is not that place. We go there to live another life, one where our actions ultimately determine our fates. You can tell a dark tale, take a serious look at serious issues, but this is not a medium suited for tales of life's capriciousness. You can make us work for it, but the possibility of victory should never be taken off the table.

And who are you to dictate what is and isnt suitable for a videogame?

[Blackrising]

I agree with the OP.
Now, I don't think that a happy ending should be the only option. Diverse endings are important, but I'd like to at least have the option to work for an ending that doesn't leave me depressed for a week (looking at you ME3).
It doesn't even have to be a completly happy, rainbows-and-sunshine ending. Just something that tells me 'Hey, not everything may be peachy right now, but you did what you could and saved what is most important to you. You're gonna be alright. Someday.'.
Just please give me a choice. I haven't been able to play Mass Effect since finishing ME3.

But I also have to say that I trust the DA team when it comes to endings. Yes, the DA2 ending might have not been ideal, but at least it left Hawke's fate open to the imagination and didn't force me to bawl my eyes out because all her efforts have been in vain at the end and she died alone and kinda glad that it's over because there's nothing to come back to and...- (sorry, talking about endings always takes me back to ME3 and then I get bitter and depressed.)

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Blackrising wrote...

I agree with the OP.
Now, I don't think that a happy ending should be the only option. Diverse endings are important, but I'd like to at least have the option to work for an ending that doesn't leave me depressed for a week (looking at you ME3).

I do not agree with this, I really do not think that game developers should create multiple endings that cater to the desires of every fanbase, this isnt about you getting what you want and me getting what I want but more about me getting what I want and you going and playing a different game.

I dont believe developer should create multiple endings and place some Star God at the end who goes "right player which type of ending do you want? The happy ending deluxe, the doom and gloom special or the Bittersweet middle ground?" as the happy ending deluxe pretty much renders the other endings without impact. I mean who in their right mind would believable choose an option they knew was only going to end in misfortune when there is a perfectly viable option available where everyone lives happily ever after?

Look at the ending of DA:O. Sure you have the Martyr ending but it is so ****ing pointless due to the fact that the only thing the Warden needs to do to survive is sleep with Morrigan, you might as well just place an option after you kill the Archdemon that allows you to run yourself through with a sword for no apparent reason or not run yourself through.

[BrookerT]

People who say that Video games must have happy endings severly limit it's ability to tell both diverse and powerful stories. The Walking Dead has a sad ending, probably one of the saddest you can think off. Yet as a story, it was immensely powerful. There is a place for happy endings, and a place for sad endings. If we want video games to flourish as an art form, then why are we con straining them by saying, "be happy" or "make me fell like a hero" ?

[Goneaviking]

Dasher1010 wrote...

That's the truth. Just make the Inquisitor able to have an ending where he/she lives if it's a completionist playthrough.

Or just don't insert a major twist immediately before the ending and then leave the aftermath undefined after getting us to choose between a few vaguely defined options.

That'd work too.

It's nice to look back at the end of the game and think to yourself: "How did I not see that coming?" 

[andrew252]

perfect_victime wrote...

andrew252 wrote...

here's hoping that not at the end a deamon comes up and offers you 3 things it can do to end the game

How dare you give away the ending

i know im sorry they told me minutes in advance but i couldnt hold my suspense longer,it turns out that no matter what we did through the past 3 games all that will happen is that morrigans baby will turn up riding a shark and offering you 3 colored gems in which will give you your ending

EDIT most traits of a hero are of virture and SELF SACRFICE,though to be fair i would always try to find a way to keep me alive at all costs.guess i aint the hero type

Modifié par andrew252, 03 mars 2013 - 10:36 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

I agree with the OP.
Now, I don't think that a happy ending should be the only option. Diverse endings are important, but I'd like to at least have the option to work for an ending that doesn't leave me depressed for a week (looking at you ME3).

I do not agree with this, I really do not think that game developers should create multiple endings that cater to the desires of every fanbase, this isnt about you getting what you want and me getting what I want but more about me getting what I want and you going and playing a different game.

I dont believe developer should create multiple endings and place some Star God at the end who goes "right player which type of ending do you want? The happy ending deluxe, the doom and gloom special or the Bittersweet middle ground?" as the happy ending deluxe pretty much renders the other endings without impact. I mean who in their right mind would believable choose an option they knew was only going to end in misfortune when there is a perfectly viable option available where everyone lives happily ever after?

Look at the ending of DA:O. Sure you have the Martyr ending but it is so ****ing pointless due to the fact that the only thing the Warden needs to do to survive is sleep with Morrigan, you might as well just place an option after you kill the Archdemon that allows you to run yourself through with a sword for no apparent reason or not run yourself through.

This is idiotic.

Many people pick the Ultimate Sacrifice in DA:O and enjoy it.

Campaigning for less choice is foolish.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 03 mars 2013 - 10:50 .

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

I agree with the OP.
Now, I don't think that a happy ending should be the only option. Diverse endings are important, but I'd like to at least have the option to work for an ending that doesn't leave me depressed for a week (looking at you ME3).

I do not agree with this, I really do not think that game developers should create multiple endings that cater to the desires of every fanbase, this isnt about you getting what you want and me getting what I want but more about me getting what I want and you going and playing a different game.

I dont believe developer should create multiple endings and place some Star God at the end who goes "right player which type of ending do you want? The happy ending deluxe, the doom and gloom special or the Bittersweet middle ground?" as the happy ending deluxe pretty much renders the other endings without impact. I mean who in their right mind would believable choose an option they knew was only going to end in misfortune when there is a perfectly viable option available where everyone lives happily ever after?

Look at the ending of DA:O. Sure you have the Martyr ending but it is so ****ing pointless due to the fact that the only thing the Warden needs to do to survive is sleep with Morrigan, you might as well just place an option after you kill the Archdemon that allows you to run yourself through with a sword for no apparent reason or not run yourself through.

This is idiotic.

Many people pick the Ultimate Sacrifice in DA:O and enjoy it.

Campaigning for less choice is foolish.

No you're idiotic!

People can enjoy the Ultimate Sacrifice all they want, still doesnt make it any less pointless, this isnt about "campaigning for less choice" but more campaigning for greater impact and integrity for choices relevant to the narrative. Do you really think that the ending to the Walking Dead (if you have played it, if you havent look away now) would have had as much impact if Clementine pulled out a Syringe full of "Zom-be-gone" and said "I can save you Lee" and Lee was all like "No Clementine you are going to have to shoot me, I am afraid of needles"?

[bEVEsthda]

Nefla wrote...

andrew252 wrote...

here's hoping that not at the end a deamon comes up and offers you 3 things it can do to end the game

**semi-confirmed DA3 ending spoilers**

      Setting: The inquisitor has traveled far and wide, fought many battles in order to bring peace to Thedas. His companions helping him achieve triumph and offering support every step of the way. He finally comes before a great battlefield where hoards of abominations and demons threaten to engulf all, mages and templars alike. The armies of mages and templars are vastly outnumbered and overpowered, but the inquisitor through his trials and tribulations has learned many of their weaknesses and if he shares his knowledge with the gathered troops, together they stand a fighting chance!
      Instead the inquisitor decides not to reveal anything he's learned about enemy weaknesses because he spent all of his resources building a mysterious magical banana which no one has ever completed and no one knows what it does. Yet surely this magical banana will be the end of their troubles! Instead of hit and run/covert tactics against a superior force, the inquisitor sacrifices most of his troops to get the banana onto the tallest cliff overlooking the battle and places it in the conveniently placed banana holder. Suddenly out of the banana an alien gray appears and tells the inquisitor that it has secretly controlled the demons and abominations for all 3 games without anyone ever hearing about him. All he really wants is to PROTECT everyone from being killed by the Qunari (who alien gray being out of the loop as he is missed the part where the Qunari became the inquisitor's allies not 2 weeks before) by sending his demons and abominations to kill them first!
     The inquisitor doesn't really want to be killed by demons OR Qunari so alien gray offers him 3 choices:
                  1)The inquisitor must jump to his death off the cliff and onto some sharp spikes, and that will somehow turn everyone in the world into an abomination and everything will be a song-singing, hand-holding abomination love-fest ruled by the iron fist of alien gray
                   2) The inquisitor must grab onto 2 red-hot pokers from the blacksmith forge that randomly appeared 2 feet away and this will kill him and cause a new archdemon to be born with the inquisitor's personality but not his morals or emotions and he will take alien gray's place as the supreme leader of the abominations and demons
                   3)The inquisitor must break a stone pot and that disheartenes the enemy so much that all the abominations and demons agree to just commit suicide including alien gray, also all the elves become extinct for some reason...and Fereldan might be burned to a crisp and the inquisitor and everyone he ever loved die a horrible firey death if you didn't play multiplayer

Sounds legit!

Bioware totally deserved this post.
(just saying )

But I was disappointed in the gaming community, by the fact that a lot of complainers were mainly upset about the absense of a happy ending. I mean, it was the most idiotic of all endings ever, basically everything was wrong with it.
And I was equally disappointed in the gaming community again, when it appeared many felt EC improved things. It didn't. Maybe gamers truly get the games they deserve and I'm just wrong all the time.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 03 mars 2013 - 11:34 .

[Goneaviking]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This is idiotic.

Many people pick the Ultimate Sacrifice in DA:O and enjoy it.

Campaigning for less choice is foolish.

No you're idiotic!

People can enjoy the Ultimate Sacrifice all they want, still doesnt make it any less pointless, this isnt about "campaigning for less choice" but more campaigning for greater impact and integrity for choices relevant to the narrative. Do you really think that the ending to the Walking Dead (if you have played it, if you havent look away now) would have had as much impact if Clementine pulled out a Syringe full of "Zom-be-gone" and said "I can save you Lee" and Lee was all like "No Clementine you are going to have to shoot me, I am afraid of needles"?

Hyperbole.

Some people hold to their principles even in the face of avoidable death. Just think of those religious folk who are strictly opposed to transplants and refuse them despite being aware of the finality of their decision.

There are also the characters who dismissed Morrigan as a sinister creature and let her have her isolated tent away from camp and never got to like her. Why would they trust that monster to raise a baby with the soul of an Old God? Who knows what kind of power that kid will have? or what'll happen if it ever comes into contact with Dark Spawn later on? or if Morrigan will pull a Flemeth on her offspring to secure an immortal body for herself later on?

There are plenty of reasons to choose ultimate sacrifice. The "this is the only rational choice" argument is always hopelessly flawed.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 03 mars 2013 - 11:44 .

[Goneaviking]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Bioware totally deserved this post.
(just saying )

But I was disappointed in the gaming community, by the fact that a lot of complainers were mainly upset about the absense of a happy ending. I mean, it was the most idiotic of all endings ever, basically everything was wrong with it.
And I was equally disappointed in the gaming community again, when it appeared many felt EC improved things. It didn't. Maybe gamers truly get the games they deserve and I'm just wrong all the time.

I saw very few complaints that focused on the lack of happy ending. They existed, but they were drowned out in all the talk about the seeming randomness of the Catlyst, the obviously flawed logic driving the Reapers, the absence of a denouement and the impossibility of a conventional victory.

There were many problems with the original ending, and there are almost as many with the EC but many of us recognised an olive branch when it was offered.