426 réponses à ce sujet

[XqctaX]

Enhanced wrote...

djwhitfield wrote...



Just incase you haven't seen it.

No need to thank me

Toodle Pip!

Seen it

http://social.biowar.../index/16061690

yeah I started that thread and it was closed. no real reason given. 

[IanPolaris]

Helios969 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think a "majority" of fans are/were disastified with endings, however it's still not clear whether BW/EA has done any long term damage to itself.  I think the reality is that most VG players don't make the kind of emotional investment to care whether a game has a strong or weak ending...unfortunate from my standpoint as the story is the most important aspect for me.  Still, the game was hellafun as were the dlc's.  Despite many of the flaws I still think Bioware crafts the most interesting story content to drive their games...and I still haven't found another gaming company that even comes close to what I consider the perfect balance of RPG elements with combat mechanics that are accessible to even the most novice of players.

And they still seem to be making plenty of money. This may have been posted somewhere before, but I thought it relevant.


So far, EA has always benefited from the launch of DLCs for some of its famous franchises. In the recently concluded third quarter for instance, extra content and free-to-play were responsible for much of EA’s digital revenue growth. EA’s DLC and free-to-play micro transaction content shot up 50.0% year over year to $185.0 million in the quarter.

http://www.zacks.com...s-effect-3-dlcs

This last is why I think it's less than honest to compare ME3's sales to sales of other RPGs prior to it because ME3 is getting a lot of it's sales because of MP DLC or rather the microtransactiions that stem from it.  That puts that aspect of ME3 in a completely different category (MMO Shooter) and thus that revenue stream should be compared with pure SP RPGs (because it's different).

-Polaris

I can't remember where but I thought I read somewhere that single player dlc sales are up too.  Regardless, I've seen lots of polls about the majority hate ME3 to the point they're not going to buy extra content or support future projects, but no real numbers to support the claims.  I guess we won't know for a couple years, though I'd maintain that any fanbase loss will be replaced by next gen gamers.  Somehow I don't think Bioware is going to fail anytime soon.

I'm not happy with the ending at all, but if I stopped playing Bioware games I'd essentially be giving up video games all together.  And I still think the good far outweighs the bad.

I think we'll have a better idea of the damage (if any) when DA:I and ME4 (or whatever they are going to call it) come out.  In particular, I'd pay attention to the pre-orders of both because (IMHO) those pre-orders reflect a poll of approval or disapproval for what BW has done before.  My take for what it's worth.

-Polaris

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we'll have a better idea of the damage (if any) when DA:I and ME4 (or whatever they are going to call it) come out.  In particular, I'd pay attention to the pre-orders of both because (IMHO) those pre-orders reflect a poll of approval or disapproval for what BW has done before.  My take for what it's worth.

-Polaris

Oh, great. Over a year of arguments like this, then.

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we'll have a better idea of the damage (if any) when DA:I and ME4 (or whatever they are going to call it) come out.  In particular, I'd pay attention to the pre-orders of both because (IMHO) those pre-orders reflect a poll of approval or disapproval for what BW has done before.  My take for what it's worth.

-Polaris

Oh, great. Over a year of arguments like this, then.

Maybe, but some actual data should be coming our way fairly soon actually.  Assuming that Bioware makes their unofficial release date for DA:I (Holiday Season of 2013), we should be seeing preorder numbers by the middle of this fall, so that would only be six months. 

[Helios969]

IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think a "majority" of fans are/were disastified with endings, however it's still not clear whether BW/EA has done any long term damage to itself.  I think the reality is that most VG players don't make the kind of emotional investment to care whether a game has a strong or weak ending...unfortunate from my standpoint as the story is the most important aspect for me.  Still, the game was hellafun as were the dlc's.  Despite many of the flaws I still think Bioware crafts the most interesting story content to drive their games...and I still haven't found another gaming company that even comes close to what I consider the perfect balance of RPG elements with combat mechanics that are accessible to even the most novice of players.

And they still seem to be making plenty of money. This may have been posted somewhere before, but I thought it relevant.


So far, EA has always benefited from the launch of DLCs for some of its famous franchises. In the recently concluded third quarter for instance, extra content and free-to-play were responsible for much of EA’s digital revenue growth. EA’s DLC and free-to-play micro transaction content shot up 50.0% year over year to $185.0 million in the quarter.

http://www.zacks.com...s-effect-3-dlcs

This last is why I think it's less than honest to compare ME3's sales to sales of other RPGs prior to it because ME3 is getting a lot of it's sales because of MP DLC or rather the microtransactiions that stem from it.  That puts that aspect of ME3 in a completely different category (MMO Shooter) and thus that revenue stream should be compared with pure SP RPGs (because it's different).

-Polaris

I can't remember where but I thought I read somewhere that single player dlc sales are up too.  Regardless, I've seen lots of polls about the majority hate ME3 to the point they're not going to buy extra content or support future projects, but no real numbers to support the claims.  I guess we won't know for a couple years, though I'd maintain that any fanbase loss will be replaced by next gen gamers.  Somehow I don't think Bioware is going to fail anytime soon.

I'm not happy with the ending at all, but if I stopped playing Bioware games I'd essentially be giving up video games all together.  And I still think the good far outweighs the bad.

I think we'll have a better idea of the damage (if any) when DA:I and ME4 (or whatever they are going to call it) come out.  In particular, I'd pay attention to the pre-orders of both because (IMHO) those pre-orders reflect a poll of approval or disapproval for what BW has done before.  My take for what it's worth.

-Polaris

I'll defer to you on the preorder aspect, but I personally have never preordered anything.  Wouldn't 1Q sales be the best indicator.  I mean if preorders are down 10% but 1Q sales end up being 20% higher isn't that the more accurate benchmark.  BTW, I'm quite looking forward to DA:I as I thoroughly enjoyed DA2, (maybe cause I was expecting to hate it.)  Dark as hell and completely different than DAO, but a pretty fascinating story that parallels human paradigms.

[LeandroBraz]

The major problem with this polls is that forums conversation about the ending have a major role of influence on how the players see ME3 ending, I commonly see people that liked the ending when they played it, but started to dislike while discussing it on forums. There's a difference between a BSN or other types of forums sample and one that get all kinds of players, including the ones that don't visit forums or game sites. If you ignore this population, that didn't suffered forums influence, the number is unreliable.

Another thing that must be considered is how the hype Bioware created had an impact on the deception with the ending. Not everyone follow every single thing that come out about a game before release. What about this group, that wasn't affected by Bioware's hype, are they covered by this polls? I doubt.

Plus, normally when Bioware talk about this, they are talking about how the people that have issues with the game don't have a consensus. Even if the people that disliked it is a majority, it's a divided group. Some are mad because Shepard die, others can't deal with plot holes or the crucible concept, and go on. The opinions are too divided to even consider it a major group with a single opinion.

and in the end of the day, it doesn't matter if a majority disliked the end, it's done, ME3 is over, the trilogy is over. Bioware moved on and are now focused on the new game. They chosen to regain this so called majority on the next game instead of trying to fix ME3, which I consider impossible, they can change and add as much as they want, people will never be satisfied. Working on the next game is the right approach...

Modifié par LeandroBraz, 03 mars 2013 - 03:30 .

[IanPolaris]

Helios969 wrote...

I'll defer to you on the preorder aspect, but I personally have never preordered anything.  Wouldn't 1Q sales be the best indicator.  I mean if preorders are down 10% but 1Q sales end up being 20% higher isn't that the more accurate benchmark.  BTW, I'm quite looking forward to DA:I as I thoroughly enjoyed DA2, (maybe cause I was expecting to hate it.)  Dark as hell and completely different than DAO, but a pretty fascinating story that parallels human paradigms.

I don't think so for what we are discussing here, i.e. how much 'damage' (if any) Bioware has done with it's existing fanbase.  I think that preorders and now that you mention it, week 1-2 sales as well are the best indicators since such sales reflect "buying on reputation".  Remember (for example) that DA2 started off with huge pre-orders and sparkling week 1-2 sales based on the reputation of DAO.

I would say that sales past the 1-2 week period would be based more on the game in question for good or ill.

My take anyway.

-Polaris

[kaileena_sands]

Lol at this topic. While I do think that there are some well-said things in that video (fell upon it yesterday at work), it's main flaw for me is that it hyperbolizes how upset most people still are. As many of you, said in this topic, most of the people have just moved on to other games (or as I did, I also just moved to the ME MP, which is sadly, in its current state, much more fun than the SP of ME3.).

So, looking back on my opinion of the ending, am I upset still? Nope, and I do appreciate BW trying to fix it with the EC. I've made peace with it, though if I really really get asked whether I think it's a good ending... it's not, but that's fairly obvious. It's silly to demand a new one from BW still.

That said, I am definitely not preordering DA3, since I have lost some trust in BW, sadly. I will be waiting for the reviews to come out, and if they are good, definitely getting it since I love the DA universe. For ME4... I will probably be getting it, and the sad part is that I'll be getting it for sure because of the multiplayer. I never thought I'd ever say this. xD

[Archonsg]

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we'll have a better idea of the damage (if any) when DA:I and ME4 (or whatever they are going to call it) come out.  In particular, I'd pay attention to the pre-orders of both because (IMHO) those pre-orders reflect a poll of approval or disapproval for what BW has done before.  My take for what it's worth.

-Polaris

Oh, great. Over a year of arguments like this, then.

Does it matter?
Bioware will either have a still large enough fanbase who would pre-order or they don't.

If they do, then all is well, and all this bickering would be rather pointless.
If they don't, well, isn't it too late by then?

[Archonsg]

@kaileena_sands

Oh, I do understand.
I bought ME3 not caring a whit about Multiplayer, 1300++ hours later, ME3 MP is basically ME3 for me.

However, I would suggest holding back a wee little to see where they are taking MP to.

The biggest in thing for MP now are large multi-faction PvP, largescale battlefields where players will fight over territory control.

Overarchingly, it is also *all* about Micro Transactions.
You could spend what amounts to 10-20 hours of game play time to buy a new weapon upgrade, or spend $5.00 to buy one immediately.
To complicate matters more, tgey will probably make weapon specific upgrades "game credits" only purchases, which means that if you want to buy and upgrade a weapon using only in game earn game credits, you'll have to grind for it.

This, while hypothetical for Mass Effect : NextGen, is reality for a number of MP shooters *now*.

I am pretty sure this is the path Bioware is going to take.
MP is such a huge success for ME3, and the fans for MP they have garnered for the most part *are* competitive in nature (just read the MP forums) which would make this progression path very likely.

[Sovereign330]

There is a lot of research that Bioware is not allowed to show. They have a marketing research team dedicated to gathering such data. They had polls on FB, Asked what people thought here and on twitter accounts. If it was majority, Bioware would be...well..nonexistent

[Luigitornado]

Gamers are fickle. Gamers taking surveys online are even more fickle.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 03 mars 2013 - 04:17 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Sovereign330 wrote...

There is a lot of research that Bioware is not allowed to show. They have a marketing research team dedicated to gathering such data. They had polls on FB, Asked what people thought here and on twitter accounts. If it was majority, Bioware would be...well..nonexistent

I've yet to see any official BioWare poll on the endings so link please. I'd like to see it.

The reason ME3 has not been catastrophic in terms of sales is because they lied and hyped lies prior to the game shipping....they essentially fooled people into buying the game. It was a short term solution that may well result in long term catastrophe especially since they didn't solve the real problem either. DA2 sales reflected how poorly the fans thought of it prior to the game shipping so with ME3 they just lied but now they will not be trusted anymore so lying won't work a second time so the next game had better be the most amazing thing ever and even then it may not sell because they no longer have any worth in the eyes of the customers.

[Xellith]

Sovereign330 wrote...

There is a lot of research that Bioware is not allowed to show. They have a marketing research team dedicated to gathering such data. They had polls on FB, Asked what people thought here and on twitter accounts. If it was majority, Bioware would be...well..nonexistent

Pray tell where these polls are. 

Or do you mean this one?



Bear in mind it didnt ask if we liked what we saw.  It was purposefully worded so that no matter what option came out on top it was a good outcome.  We also were told that we were only getting context and whatnot.  So yeah this particular poll was pretty worthless as a measure of customer satisfaction - because its not asking you about customer satisfaction. 

This poll was intentionally ambiguous.

Modifié par Xellith, 03 mars 2013 - 04:43 .

[Stalker]

Don't you want to understand it? BioWare is done with the endings. No poll in the world is gonna change that. Deal with it.

[Sovereign330]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Sovereign330 wrote...

There is a lot of research that Bioware is not allowed to show. They have a marketing research team dedicated to gathering such data. They had polls on FB, Asked what people thought here and on twitter accounts. If it was majority, Bioware would be...well..nonexistent

I've yet to see any official BioWare poll on the endings so link please. I'd like to see it.

The reason ME3 has not been catastrophic in terms of sales is because they lied and hyped lies prior to the game shipping....they essentially fooled people into buying the game. It was a short term solution that may well result in long term catastrophe especially since they didn't solve the real problem either. DA2 sales reflected how poorly the fans thought of it prior to the game shipping so with ME3 they just lied but now they will not be trusted anymore so lying won't work a second time so the next game had better be the most amazing thing ever and even then it may not sell because they no longer have any worth in the eyes of the customers.

For about a month or two, they had a poll on their Facebook page that asked "Did the extended cut meet your expectation?" The options were
It exceeded my expectations
It met my expectations
It did not meet my expectations
I didn't play it yet no spoilers.

Why they took it down, idk. But the first two options combined outweighed the third option. It was a fair number of people who voted too. In addition, Merizan, Gamble, and Priestly were actively on their twitter accounts collecting feedback (cause it's their job). And there's an Extended Cut spoiler forum that they read through here collecting more info. This is what they do for a living. It's why we're getting Citadel which HEAVILY focuses on characters...one of the major pieces of feedback about the game. The Extended Xut was their response and not everyone liked it and that's okay...doesn't change that they DID respond at some point between 3/6/12 and 3/5/13.

Take that for what you will. While BSN is majority loaded with ending haters...that is not a representative sample in the least. These guys conducted both a formal poll on facebook and informal indidvidual feedback on BSN and twitter. As I said, would be a dead company if you were majority...they'd lose everything.

As for Clevernoob..I watched his hour vid...He sounds like he's talkin out of his a** and that he's still stuck in the past before 6/26/12 when nothing had been done. No credit at all. It's okay to say "Yea they tried but I don't approve" But to say they didn't listen and did NOTHING....naive at best.

EDIT: In addition, not everyone looks at ME3 in as negative a light as you. I know you feel at home here on BSN with your fellow critics of the game, but not all of us disapprove of what they have done with the product that is Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Sovereign330, 03 mars 2013 - 04:36 .

[3DandBeyond]

Helios969 wrote...


I'll defer to you on the preorder aspect, but I personally have never preordered anything.  Wouldn't 1Q sales be the best indicator.  I mean if preorders are down 10% but 1Q sales end up being 20% higher isn't that the more accurate benchmark.  BTW, I'm quite looking forward to DA:I as I thoroughly enjoyed DA2, (maybe cause I was expecting to hate it.)  Dark as hell and completely different than DAO, but a pretty fascinating story that parallels human paradigms.

Actually, companies started with the idea that long-term goals mattered.  They still do, but this is what has happened.  First week sales that were high meant that later sales would be good.  That has been moved back from release day sales to where it's now pre-release sales.  These drive the advertising for a product and can determine the long-term success of a title.  Remember that hype used to happen more after a game is released.  What happened with ME3 and seems to be happening all over, is that most of the hype was geared toward pre-orders.  They relied on those pre-orders to create fan hype for the game that would then carry sales. 

And how it seems to work in gaming today is that pre-orders drive release day sales which drive first week sales which create the longterm success of the game and the hype used in ads.  They use those pre-order numbers along with release day sales to designate a game as a bestseller, no matter what happens later.  With ME3, we know it had success early on with sales.  We have no idea how many copies were returned or when it fell off a cliff (and maybe rebounded when the price dropped or there was renewed interest).  I can say that early on after release and then again in the summer, Game Stop and Best Buy stores all around my area had piles of the game that they were selling used.  And early on at Best Buy the price for the game new was just about as low as they were selling it used-$17.99 used and $19.99 new.

[CSunkyst]

McFlurry598 wrote...

This video is crap and so are CleverNoobs evidence. Over 1 Million copies of mass effect 3 has been sold. Saying a mere 78k is the 'vast majority' is complete and utter bull****. Then the votes from the other polls have the same numbers, probably 95% of those votes are voted over and over by the same people whining about the endings. If you think a mere 75k is the 'vast majority' then you need help with statistics. This guy has no life, he just sits on his ass all day on BSN comparing and creating polls. Don't believe this guy, he's an idiot who needs help in statistics more than anything

Be real, you can't possibly be so stupid that you'd think 1 million people would vote on a single poll.  You also can't be so dumb that you don't realize that 93% of 78k is a statisticly significant number.  

The truth is that the real majority of people who bought ME3 either never finished the game, or were casual fans/first timers and don't give a damn about the story in the first place.  Out of everybody else (the fans), the majority of us HATE the endings to various degrees, some are resigned to the ending (a far cry from liking them) and a tiny tiny itty bitty minority (you) love the ending either because you're some kind of obnoxious emo/hipster, you simply have odd tastes, or you're one of THOSE kind of nerds (that's not a knock against nerds, I am one) who is self delusional and love it simply because it says "Mass Effect" on the box (much like the Star Wars prequel fans)

So either you're an idiot, or you're just pulling the wool over your own eyes.  Sad in either case.   

Modifié par CSunkyst, 03 mars 2013 - 04:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

Sovereign330 wrote...

For about a month or two, they had a poll on their Facebook page that asked "Did the extended cut meet your expectation?" The options were
It exceeded my expectations
It met my expectations
It did not meet my expectations
I didn't play it yet no spoilers.

Why they took it down, idk. But the first two options combined outweighed the third option. It was a fair number of people who voted too. In addition, Merizan, Gamble, and Priestly were actively on their twitter accounts collecting feedback (cause it's their job). And there's an Extended Cut spoiler forum that they read through here collecting more info. This is what they do for a living. It's why we're getting Citadel which HEAVILY focuses on characters...one of the major pieces of feedback about the game. The Extended Xut was their response and not everyone liked it and that's okay...doesn't change that they DID respond at some point between 3/6/12 and 3/5/13.

Take that for what you will. While BSN is majority loaded with ending haters...that is not a representative sample in the least. These guys conducted both a formal poll on facebook and informal indidvidual feedback on BSN and twitter. As I said, would be a dead company if you were majority...they'd lose everything.

As for Clevernoob..I watched his hour vid...He sounds like he's talkin out of his a** and that he's still stuck in the past before 6/26/12 when nothing had been done. No credit at all. It's okay to say "Yea they tried but I don't approve" But to say they didn't listen and did NOTHING....naive at best.

EDIT: In addition, not everyone looks at ME3 in as negative a light as you. I know you feel at home here on BSN with your fellow critics of the game, but not all of us disapprove of what they have done with the product that is Mass Effect 3.

Ok, the problem is that all polls can be made to skew toward the response you want to get and worded in such a way as to not really tell you anything.  For instance, I expected nothing in the EC that I would like at all because I knew they would keep the endings they had created.  But, in all honesty it exceeded my expectations because it added some poignant content in that stupid Normandy evac scene.  The issue is even though that dialogue was great, it made the endings feel even worse to me.  The EC fixed nothing for me and I disliked it even more intensely than the original endings because it made it clear that this was BW's intended ending and it was set in stone, stupid as it was.  But, it exceeded my expectations even though I detest it.

Then, putting a poll on Facebook and gathering info on twitter-well, those places are culling responses mostly from people who follow them because they LIKE what they have done and LIKED the game.  Instead, they ignored polls that were created here that indicated an awful lot of people did not like the ending-and this place is the forum for actual owners of the game.  Someone might go on twitter and tell Jessica they just loved all of ME3 and so on, merely because they have at attachment to Jessica.  They may never even have played the game.  And here there should actually also be a large grouping of people that like Bioware and everything ME, but fans didn't widely love th ending, EC or original.

The questions asked were the wrong ones to ask.  The people asked were the wrong ones to ask-they don't know who responded to Facebook and twitter.  And BW didn't listen to fans in their own original endings we are listening thread and didn't listen to fans in the EC threads at all-the vast majority (I looked at every post in each thread) was not thrilled with the EC.  Most of the comments that tended toward liking it went something like this: "it was ok, not great and not what I wanted.  I'll live with it, but I'm done with ME and Bioware.  Deleted game from my computer."  And most were comments that ranged from the EC didn't fix things, it was a bit better, but not good.  People didn't like it and said it was like putting perfume on poo.

All along BW did have a way to get a random sampling-they have Origin and they know (if you allowed it) if you finished the game.  They don't know if you liked it but could have had a company cull random names from registered owners-include people registered here that have access to this forum and those who registered through Origin and ask them about the game. To date I am unaware of anyone having been asked by any company if they actually liked the original endings and then the EC ones.  And believe me if someone that didn't like them had been asked to take part in such a poll they would have said so.  Other companies do that-I get asked regularly by some other game companies where I've registered games to give them feedback. 

And before someone says that the information I've compiled in my head is just anecdotal and not scientific, well the same could be said of Bioware using Twitter and Facebook-there was nothing scientific about that.  Many people have no interest in using either of those two sites for anything and in order to participate in some activities that companies put out on Facebook you have to Like the company first which is then information that your friends get.  I don't want everyone knowing or having to hear aboiut the things I like all the time so I never "like" anything of Facebook.

[Dr_Extrem]

well . i dont use facebook but i am here.

[AresKeith]

That Facebook poll by Bioware was misleading compared to what peoples expectations were

[Dr_Extrem]

AresKeith wrote...

That Facebook poll by Bioware was misleading compared to what peoples expectations were

aye ... people had different expectations. some expected a trainwreck and they got one. others expected closure and could draw it from the slides. others expected, that the ec has no impact on the game - their expectations were met.

[clarkusdarkus]

You would have to live in a cave for a year to not get wind of the ME3 ending online, Anyone who typed ME3 into google or a search engine saw the fan outcry, Some even jumped on the bandwagon, Some got hope knowing they werent the only ones who felt empty, Some just blatantly were delusional..... Bioware knew the ending wasnt well recieved and did the smoke n mirrors scenario pointing too the perfect scores whilst saying they were in the minority in the hope it would go away..

Turns out it will never go away and will forever taint ME3 as it wasnt even a good game let alone the ending travesty.......They released the EC and that alone proved the original endings were crap, EC changed nothing in destroy hence the drama hasnt gone away. I for one would change my hating of the ending answer on polls to liking the ending if they just got off there high horse and admitted a mistake and gave a happy ending.

Modifié par clarkusdarkus, 03 mars 2013 - 05:23 .

[TheProtheans]

Xellith wrote...

Sovereign330 wrote...

There is a lot of research that Bioware is not allowed to show. They have a marketing research team dedicated to gathering such data. They had polls on FB, Asked what people thought here and on twitter accounts. If it was majority, Bioware would be...well..nonexistent

Pray tell where these polls are. 

Or do you mean this one?



Bear in mind it didnt ask if we liked what we saw.  It was purposefully worded so that no matter what option came out on top it was a good outcome.  We also were told that we were only getting context and whatnot.  So yeah this particular poll was pretty worthless as a measure of customer satisfaction - because its not asking you about customer satisfaction. 

This poll was intentionally ambiguous.

That poll was fail.
What if I expected it to be utter s**t and what if it exceeded that s**t I expected.
There is no positive or negative option, you could sell it as "good" propaganda for Mass effect 3 but anyone open minded enough would see there is no positive or negative option.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 03 mars 2013 - 05:11 .

[HiddenInWar]

Gangnam Style wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

This is new and exciting information.