426 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

alsonamedbort wrote...

tevix wrote...

BSN is IMO a great represenatation of the base.

inb4 it's full of ending haters.

Maybe it's full of people unhappy with the ending because...the majority is unhappy with the ending? I see plenty of people praising it, being ok with it, and hating it in equal measure. I see plenty of praise threads and comments all over the forum, and lots of civilized thoughtful discussion of the game. This indicates a balanced population.

In relation to the entire fanbase, it is very small and very, very vocal.

If you had any idea at all what the "entire fanbase thought", then you might have some credibility. Since you don't (and no one does), don't make a declarative statement.

The fact that only 1/3 of the average consumers even finish their games skews the census.

[alsonamedbort]

o Ventus wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

tevix wrote...

BSN is IMO a great represenatation of the base.

inb4 it's full of ending haters.

Maybe it's full of people unhappy with the ending because...the majority is unhappy with the ending? I see plenty of people praising it, being ok with it, and hating it in equal measure. I see plenty of praise threads and comments all over the forum, and lots of civilized thoughtful discussion of the game. This indicates a balanced population.

In relation to the entire fanbase, it is very small and very, very vocal.

If you had any idea at all what the "entire fanbase thought", then you might have some credibility. Since you don't (and no one does), don't make a declarative statement.

The fact that only 1/3 of the average consumers even finish their games skews the census.

Well, I guess my theory is that if all of the fanbase was this vocal, BSN would have a much higher number of subscribers, or there would be higher numbers of users on other websites.

[Dr_Extrem]

alsonamedbort wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

tevix wrote...

BSN is IMO a great represenatation of the base.

inb4 it's full of ending haters.

Maybe it's full of people unhappy with the ending because...the majority is unhappy with the ending? I see plenty of people praising it, being ok with it, and hating it in equal measure. I see plenty of praise threads and comments all over the forum, and lots of civilized thoughtful discussion of the game. This indicates a balanced population.

In relation to the entire fanbase, it is very small and very, very vocal.

If you had any idea at all what the "entire fanbase thought", then you might have some credibility. Since you don't (and no one does), don't make a declarative statement.

The fact that only 1/3 of the average consumers even finish their games skews the census.

Well, I guess my theory is that if all of the fanbase was this vocal, BSN would have a much higher number of subscribers, or there would be higher numbers of users on other websites.

it was ... but people stoped caring.

a year ago, this forum was buzzing with threads and replies. it would make the mp-forum blush.


on the hight of me2, this forum was like a bee hive - the sp-strategy forum was full of articles.

[o Ventus]

alsonamedbort wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

alsonamedbort wrote...

tevix wrote...

BSN is IMO a great represenatation of the base.

inb4 it's full of ending haters.

Maybe it's full of people unhappy with the ending because...the majority is unhappy with the ending? I see plenty of people praising it, being ok with it, and hating it in equal measure. I see plenty of praise threads and comments all over the forum, and lots of civilized thoughtful discussion of the game. This indicates a balanced population.

In relation to the entire fanbase, it is very small and very, very vocal.

If you had any idea at all what the "entire fanbase thought", then you might have some credibility. Since you don't (and no one does), don't make a declarative statement.

The fact that only 1/3 of the average consumers even finish their games skews the census.

Well, I guess my theory is that if all of the fanbase was this vocal, BSN would have a much higher number of subscribers, or there would be higher numbers of users on other websites.

... Which would still be skewed by the fact that 1/3 of the average consumers finish their games.

[Ghost]

dirtdiver32318 wrote...

Honestly I have given up fighting they are not listening that most do not like the ending. Accept it unfortunately we have too. To all those who like the ending and come on here just to bash those who don't I thought of let you know that you all are just being d bags and can't have a civil debate without bashing the other side and I'm calling you all something I can't type in here but it's the thought that counts have a nice day

I believe its the other way around.

[tevix]

@alsonamedbort

Any sample size is going to be small compared to the size of the whole targeted group being researched. That's generally how science, research & marketing work. BSN is a good representation of the fanbase BECAUSE they are vocal. You need to HEAR what people think, and places like these are a great way to get that.

You can market to a new audience, or your core/current audience. You cannot do both.

[iDeevil]

dirtdiver32318 wrote...

Honestly I have given up fighting they are not listening that most do not like the ending. Accept it unfortunately we have too. To all those who like the ending and come on here just to bash those who don't I thought of let you know that you all are just being d bags and can't have a civil debate without bashing the other side and I'm calling you all something I can't type in here but it's the thought that counts have a nice day

this is a problem for people on either side if the equation.  Lets not pretend that any side smells like roses here.

*****
Re: Bioware's poll.  It actually reads like this.

Like it
It was okay
Didn't like it
Haven't Played

This is pretty much how a number of polls boil down too.

Now if more people 'Liked it' the. 'Didn't like it... Well it counts for about as much as any Internet poll does.  But like everyone else quoting polls here, it can work if ya work it.

*****

BSN isn't really fully representative of the fan ass.  We are a minority, and always have been.  Doesn't mean that opinions don't count though.  It's just about measuring expectations on how much they do count.

[AsheraII]

What? We have to take a completely optional survey serious?
I rather think that those who weren't "upset" by the endings, though they might even agree that the endings weren't as good as the rest of the 3 games, largely have all the whining on ignore by now.

Biased survey is biased.

[tevix]

@ideevil

I...I KNOW BSN is a small portion of the fan base...I've kind of already adressed that....

If you take a poll of 3 million people in the US you could use the same argument because it's only about 1% of the populace. That does not make it innacurate.

[iDeevil]

tevix wrote...

@alsonamedbort

Any sample size is going to be small compared to the size of the whole targeted group being researched. That's generally how science, research & marketing work. BSN is a good representation of the fanbase BECAUSE they are vocal. You need to HEAR what people think, and places like these are a great way to get that.

The people who are here are a niche group of fans. We are representative of that niche.  We are not representative of all players or all fans. Just like Washington DC's opinion on America is not representative of all the varying opinions of America.  Just their own based on placement, culture, crimes etc.

Our opinions of the game by our dedication to post here, makes our opinions more skewed than the average.

You can market to a new audience, or your core/current audience. You cannot do both.

you can do this effectively.  What you cannot do is make everyone happy all the time.

[tevix]

@ideevil

If you're product makes the majority of your customers feel "meh" you have failed as a business. You HAVE to pick one or the other, and bank on it. You cannot flip flop.

Bioware has picked, and they have chosen to go with the people who claim to like the ending. Whether you are for or against the choice they have made they have taken a stand. That stand will of course alienate a certain group of players. You will alienate no matter which way you go, but if you don't go one or the other you will alienate EVERYONE.

[iDeevil]

[quote]tevix wrote...

@ideevil

If you're product makes the majority of your customers feel "meh" you have failed as a business. You HAVE to pick one or the other, and bank on it. You cannot flip flop.[/quote]

Truth is with most entertainment products, the end result is the majority feel 'meh' or 'it was okay'. It's why sweeps are huge for TV.  Why movies air comedy trailers with most of the jokes, or action.  Why books have blurbs from other authors.

The end feeling is less important than the initital outlay. People thought DA2 was going to affect the sales of future Bioware, it didn't. They thought going to EA would negatively affect it, from an objective standpoint, it hasn't.

Next gen gamers will take over from burnt out ones.  It's the way of gaming, otherwise many games would never have any sort of sequel. 

Bioware has picked, and they have chosen to go with the people who claim to like the ending. Whether you are for or against the choice they have made they have taken a stand. That stand will of course alienate a certain group of players. You will alienate no matter which way you go, but if you don't go one or the other you will alienate EVERYONE.[/quote]

They have not alienated everyone mate.  They have potentially alienated some, and this hasn't been onjeftivrly evidenced in sales figures.

[tevix]

@ideevil

You may be right, and obviously you and I are of two different mindsets. I have grown tired of people being ok with just "meh" products from companies. If someone feels "meh" with BW yet continues to buy their product I will never understand why.

[iDeevil]

tevix wrote...

@ideevil

You may be right, and obviously you and I are of two different mindsets. I have grown tired of people being ok with just "meh" products from companies. If someone feels "meh" with BW yet continues to buy their product I will never understand why.

And you don't need too.  There is no reason for you to have any real feelings for why people like something enough to buy it.  You may need to love something, but that is no more or less valid than someone who just likes a few hours of escapism.

Everyone has their price, and it's theirs and their's alone.

[tevix]

@ideevil

I think you misunderstood the intention of my post. I was politely trying to suggest that we have reached an impasse.

I feel the goal of "meh" is an unacceptable business practice. You do not.

*Shrugs* Ok, then, that's pretty much the end of it.

[Dragoonlordz]

Those polls are flawed, anyone who says otherwise does not know how unbiased statistics work.

The reality is noone here knows what the majority feel. The only thing you know is that some people voted in those polls, a small biased portion of the fanbase -and you know what you think and feel about the game. If you have to rely on fictional quantitative statements like "we all" or "everyone" even majority or minority then to me all your doing is talking trash and puffing out your chest trying to make your opinion of more value than in reality it is.

Especially when even using such polls the reasoning behind each persons vote could be different just like how some people hated the ending because no Harbinger battle, some hated due to other reasons like no blue babies, some because of catalyst and some just hated whole game including ending. Same reason why Retake crumbled, so many people with different issues on why they did not like the ending that when came to it, noone was in agreement over what they wanted.

It also does not take into account change of opinion since voting (many of the polls he reference are pre-EC). So stick to saying what you want, what you feel and leave it at that. If expression of your opinion is of decent quality, your points if have validity then you shouldn't need to make up fictional quantitative numbers and statements to back up your stance as your stance should be able to stand on it's own two feet metaphorically speaking.

Fact is there is so many flaws in that video that the comments section for it has people attacking each other over it's validity. A lot of the polls in his "evidence" are actually very out of date pre-EC and it very much IS biased statistics. Overall the video is flawed polling, based on flawed out of date evidence and comes to a flawed conclusion and he uses flawed references in the video; now your using that flawed video to make a flawed thread title and assumption.

I also find it ironic that he deletes and removes any comment that he cannot counter argue below his video.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 mars 2013 - 11:02 .

[zigamortis]

bobobo878 wrote...

The video also claimed that 59.8% of fans still believe that indoctrination theory is true, I guess 59.8% of fans are deluded fruitcakes.

While I don't believe that 60% of all the fans believe in IT, Believing in it does not make you a "deluded fruitcake".

[Bourne Endeavor]

iDeevil wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

well . jessica merizan stating on twitter "we roled the numbers ..." but not showing them, is not very productive and only adds more petrol to the fire. 

if they have numbers and can show off, why not do it and calm this forum down once and for all? what are they afraid of, if the "vocal minority", really is a minority?

You will never have any company like this show you their market research.  They have it; intuit meaning; pass it on to relevant authorities.  People like Jessica and such NEVER get the numbers, they get the outcomes.  The numbers stay with the bean counters far away from those folk.

Those folk also include writers and programers.

I'll break your argument with two pictures - one from IGN no less.





See, this indicates BioWare not only can do surveys that collect very specific data based on user experiences and choices, but that they have... when it was favorable. If Jesscia's statements held any merit, why not provide the same evidence they did when releasing those "fun facts" about Mass Effect 2? By opting not to, we can only infer the contrary - BioWare does not have any data or what they do have mirrors every other poll and survey already available.

[Auztin]

It seems biased & it doesn't matter what he says because "Everyone Lies".If people are still not over the ending then they should go pick up another game & play that or give up on video games & live their life.Another thing is Drew Karpyshyn's version wouldn't have been any better,just saying.

[Dr_Extrem]

Auztinito wrote...

It seems biased & it doesn't matter what he says because "Everyone Lies".If people are still not over the ending then they should go pick up another game & play that or give up on video games & live their life.Another thing is Drew Karpyshyn's version wouldn't have been any better,just saying.

drews vision was in its early stages - we have to be fair.

if his early work is as good as the relaesed version, what could it have been his final composition?

[Auztin]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Auztinito wrote...

It seems biased & it doesn't matter what he says because "Everyone Lies".If people are still not over the ending then they should go pick up another game & play that or give up on video games & live their life.Another thing is Drew Karpyshyn's version wouldn't have been any better,just saying.

drews vision was in its early stages - we have to be fair.

if his early work is as good as the relaesed version, what could it have been his final composition?

He may as well be a good writer but people always cling on to hating the ending & saying he could do better & as I see it we would still have 3 endings(Destroy,Control,& Refuse) but with a different theme.

[Dr_Extrem]

Auztinito wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Auztinito wrote...

It seems biased & it doesn't matter what he says because "Everyone Lies".If people are still not over the ending then they should go pick up another game & play that or give up on video games & live their life.Another thing is Drew Karpyshyn's version wouldn't have been any better,just saying.

drews vision was in its early stages - we have to be fair.

if his early work is as good as the relaesed version, what could it have been his final composition?

He may as well be a good writer but people always cling on to hating the ending & saying he could do better & as I see it we would still have 3 endings(Destroy,Control,& Refuse) but with a different theme.

the people are not bugged by the fact that there are 3 (4) choices. people can live with the themes of the endings - they dont choose them, if they dont like it.

people dont like oits presentation (starchild & divejump ect.), the massage (commit suicide to solve some elses problems) and the circumstances (actually, the reapers let you win).


its not the choices - its the way they were executed.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Those polls are flawed, anyone who says otherwise does not know how unbiased statistics work.

The reality is noone here knows what the majority feel. The only thing you know is that some people voted in those polls, a small biased portion of the fanbase -and you know what you think and feel about the game. If you have to rely on fictional quantitative statements like "we all" or "everyone" even majority or minority then to me all your doing is talking trash and puffing out your chest trying to make your opinion of more value than in reality it is.

Especially when even using such polls the reasoning behind each persons vote could be different just like how some people hated the ending because no Harbinger battle, some hated due to other reasons like no blue babies, some because of catalyst and some just hated whole game including ending. Same reason why Retake crumbled, so many people with different issues on why they did not like the ending that when came to it, noone was in agreement over what they wanted.

It also does not take into account change of opinion since voting (many of the polls he reference are pre-EC). So stick to saying what you want, what you feel and leave it at that. If expression of your opinion is of decent quality, your points if have validity then you shouldn't need to make up fictional quantitative numbers and statements to back up your stance as your stance should be able to stand on it's own two feet metaphorically speaking.

Fact is there is so many flaws in that video that the comments section for it has people attacking each other over it's validity. A lot of the polls in his "evidence" are actually very out of date pre-EC and it very much IS a biased statistics. Overall the video is flawed polling, based on flawed out of date evidence and comes to a flawed conclusion and now your using that flawed video to make a flawed thread title and assumption.

The fact you said Retake crumbled, invalidated your entire post. They facilitated the largest backlash in gaming history, to the extent Amazon was giving full refunds to accommodate angry customers. The Extended Cut, flawed as it may be, is due largely in part to Retake pushing BioWare in a way no organized group has ever lobbied against a developer before.

You repeatedly cite the polls and surveys as flawed, yet cannot provide a single source of positive evidence - not one. Whether you believe CleverNoob or not is irrelevant to the fact numerous polls from different countries, created at different times, all indicate a negative response toward the ending. The reasoning behind people's votes are equally as equivalent because it leads to the same result - every poll across the Internet is negative.

Not even Final Fantasy XIII, the most criticised title in the series, garnered such a massive one-sided response amongst the online community. You can champion the minority/majority argument for years to come, but until there is some evidence of a positive variety,then we can only infer what we know. BioWare supposedly has these very statistics. They have posted them in the past. What is preventing them now?

[iDeevil]

Dr_Extrem wrote...
the people are not bugged by the fact that there are 3 (4) choices. people can live with the themes of the endings - they dont choose them, if they dont like it.

people dont like oits presentation (starchild & divejump ect.), the massage (commit suicide to solve some elses problems) and the circumstances (actually, the reapers let you win).


its not the choices - its the way they were executed.

It may be true for you, and perhaps others.  But for some they cite the lack of 400 endings as the problem.  The themes.  The idea Shepard dies.

The reason why people didn't like the ending are as varied as the reasons people enjoyed playing the game, or why they picked it up in the first place. Better yet, what they like eating for breakfast.

[iDeevil]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

You repeatedly cite the polls and surveys as flawed, yet cannot provide a single source of positive evidence - not one. Whether you believe CleverNoob or not is irrelevant to the fact numerous polls from different countries, created at different times, all indicate a negative response toward the ending. The reasoning behind people's votes are equally as equivalent because it leads to the same result - every poll across the Internet is negative.

What is relevant is that the OP and the video state that people *still* hate the ending now, a year later.  There is no evidence that this is true.

BioWare supposedly has these very statistics. They have posted them in the past. What is preventing them now?

Bioware has never posted statistics that state whether or not someone hates, or likes the game.  In game statistics like you provided above are *in game statistics*. The fact there are more male Shepards, that people change faces or that some people had played the game 400 times doesn't = what the majority do and don't like in terms of overall gameplay, not specific.

They are fun stats for us.  Stats that tell them what is and isn't working.

By the stats you have posted, mind you, Mass Effect 2 could be considered to be unliked because only about 50% of people finished it. That's if you could be bothered reading it that way.

Modifié par iDeevil, 03 mars 2013 - 11:16 .