426 réponses à ce sujet

[Link Ashland 614]

So, polls. Every single one gives a different number, but all are done on the internet. Why have I never seen a poll made outside?

Not all ME fans are on the internet and the BSN. We will never know who's the majority outside of the BSN. So, how about we just move on from the polls? Those who hate/don't like the ending move on, and we take the BSN to the fun, gracious, smart place it used to be?

It all depends on you to move on.

[kaileena_sands]

Link Ashland 614 wrote...

Not all ME fans are on the internet [...]

There are people in caves that play ME?  Even my grandmother is on the Internet!

Modifié par kaileena_sands, 04 mars 2013 - 01:35 .

[iDeevil]

kaileena_sands wrote...

Link Ashland 614 wrote...

Not all ME fans are on the internet [...]

There are people in caves that play ME?  Even my grandmother is on the Internet!

LOL, it probably would have been better worded that not all ME fans bother with websites that discuss ME.  Most of my friends, who are gamers, have never even been here or voted in a poll.

[Link Ashland 614]

Again, not all ME fans are on the internet. Some might not even visit forums like you said. We will never know what is the majority and I don't care. I care more if this place could ever go back to what it was before.

Which will never, ever happen.

[Benchpress610]

iDeevil wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

The incontrovertible fact remains that all the polls and surveys done in BSN and other places show the majority of players didn’t like the ending. Ratios range from 3-1 to 10-1. One year later, there is not one poll or survey showing any different…NONE.
Someone might say the sample is not large enough and we may never see exact numbers, but I see a trend here.

One year later there is not one poll that shows - anything.

One year later the majority of people have moved on.  It's the nature of the beast.

I beg to disagree. There have been polls as recent last week: same results, similar numbers, and like it or not those are the ONLY numbers we have.  

[Benchpress610]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

The incontrovertible fact remains that all the polls and surveys done in BSN and other places show the majority of players didn’t like the ending. Ratios range from 3-1 to 10-1. One year later, there is not one poll or survey showing any different…NONE.
Someone might say the sample is not large enough and we may never see exact numbers, but I see a trend here.

All polls rely on probability never certainty. The OP and the video claims the latter which makes them inaccurate.

You also have to take into account the bias on any poll, which can impact it's credibility. You must use recent broad ranging data gathering for current probabilities (timing is a factor, sources of data, random vs targeted polling etc), cannot use pre-EC polls to assume or reflect current opinions. Then there is real world factors to take into account such as the likelihood of those happy with content willing to go online and voice such being taken into account vs those of discontent which are far more likely to vote on such which also leads back to the validity of the data based on bias.

It is fine to say you believe in the probability of more people hate it than like it based on polls you have seen. It is not fine to say factually that it is without doubt a certainty. The video and OP made the mistake of doing the latter not the former which is why they are constantly being brought into question and pointed out the flaw in their reasoning both on the comments section of the video and here in this thread. Polls cannot be used to make factual comments and conclusions about anything outside of the amount of people who voted in the poll and what they voted for, outside of that all you have is probabilities and that can be tainted by the bias of how the poll was done, when it was done and the group who took part.

50,000 people vote in a poll (lets assume verified votes and little to no bias) it is a factual statement that many people voted, and that is what what voted for in the poll. It is merely a probability that % amount of people felt same way using it as sample but never factual or certainty. So making factual definitive statements like the OP and the video have done is both flawed and wrong.

Yet as I posted earlier, these are the only polls we have and they are showing a trend. As for the bias factor, I don’t buy your premise. Polls have been posted by both pro-enders and anti-enders alike. The questions have been formulated in many different ways, sometimes showing the poster bias, and yet all of them come out with similar results.
 
I’m not saying that those polls are “absolutely certain”, but in the same vein they are not less valid in showing trends, this compounded by the fact that there is not one that shows any different.
 
I understand all the scientific methodology of polling you mention, and it would be great if we could get Gallup conduct a poll for us. Meanwhile the only concrete numbers we have, show that the majority of players dislike the ending.

Edited for grammar

Modifié par Benchpress610, 04 mars 2013 - 01:54 .

[Benchpress610]

Link Ashland 614 wrote...

Again, not all ME fans are on the internet. Some might not even visit forums like you said. We will never know what is the majority and I don't care. I care more if this place could ever go back to what it was before.

Which will never, ever happen.

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

[txgoldrush]

If internet polls were accurate...Ron Paul would have been the Republican nominee.....oh wait, he is not, because internet polls are WORTHLESS.

Everyone who knows statistics knows this.

[Indy_S]

Benchpress610 wrote...

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

That fact is only true for the PC, of course.

[iDeevil]

Benchpress610 wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

The incontrovertible fact remains that all the polls and surveys done in BSN and other places show the majority of players didn’t like the ending. Ratios range from 3-1 to 10-1. One year later, there is not one poll or survey showing any different…NONE.
Someone might say the sample is not large enough and we may never see exact numbers, but I see a trend here.

One year later there is not one poll that shows - anything.

One year later the majority of people have moved on.  It's the nature of the beast.

I beg to disagree. There have been polls as recent last week: same results, similar numbers, and like it or not those are the ONLY numbers we have.  

You can beg all you wish.

If you are seriously going to suggest to me that the polls are getting the same traffic they were a year ago.  Even a month ago, you'd be mistaken.  People are voting in them because they are moving on.

There are very few hold outs still willing to go that extra mile - or step as it were - for a year old game.

[Link Ashland 614]

Is different to be on the internet, commenting, etc, thant to play the game with an internet conection. There could be 100 MP players of ME3, but only 25 check the BSN, or viceversa. There's just now ay to know what every single person that has played all ME games thinks of the ending.

So, again, why keep going to try to get the balance to one side? You just move on and enjoy other things.

[iDeevil]

Indy_S wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

That fact is only true for the PC, of course.

I can play on my PS3 and XBox without an internet connection.  Don't know about PC because I don't own one and don't want to bootcamp my Mac.

[Benchpress610]

Indy_S wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

That fact is only true for the PC, of course.

I stand corrected. I play on the PC, so I assumed consoles needed an Internet connection as well.

[Benchpress610]

iDeevil wrote...
You can beg all you wish.

If you are seriously going to suggest to me that the polls are getting the same traffic they were a year ago.  Even a month ago, you'd be mistaken.  People are voting in them because they are moving on.

There are very few hold outs still willing to go that extra mile - or step as it were - for a year old game.

I fail to see your point. A poll is poll, old or new. It still represents a small fraction of the fan base. All I’m saying is no matter how small that fraction is, it still shows the same results as a year ago, which is revealing, since as you correctly said, most anti-enders have probably moved on.  Therefore, you would assume the balance must have shifted on pro-enders favor, and yet the polls still show an anti-ender majority.

[chemiclord]

It doesn't matter when the poll was made. It's still largely the same sample size being voted on by the same people. In this very thread, we had one poster describe voting on every single on-line poll with his disapproval.

Polls from the BSN (or other internet sites) are like taking a poll from the state of Texas, and projecting that to be the opinion of the entire nation. It might be. It might not be. But you CAN'T make that projection with anything resembling accuracy.

To this day, I do not understand why posters are so hellbent on demonstrating they are the majority opinion. WHAT DOES IT MATTER? If you are a minority opinion, are you going to change your opinion or something? If you hate the endings, are you going to suddenly LIKE them if a magical poll of every player shows that 90% of the players like or are at least not bothered by them? If you like them, will you hate them if the opinion proves to be the minority?

What exactly are you all trying to prove here?

[UrgentArchengel]

I'll ask again. I don't seem to understand what the point of all this is when you consider the fact it's over. Your not getting a new ending. The satisfaction of them saying they were wrong is nothing more then a hollow victory.

[Chala]

Benchpress610 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

That fact is only true for the PC, of course.

I stand corrected. I play on the PC, so I assumed consoles needed an Internet connection as well.

Don't give them ideas...

[wolfsite]

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

That fact is only true for the PC, of course.

I stand corrected. I play on the PC, so I assumed consoles needed an Internet connection as well.

Don't give them ideas...

I think they already got that idea *Looks at next gen consoles*

[Benchpress610]

chemiclord wrote...

It doesn't matter when the poll was made. It's still largely the same sample size being voted on by the same people. In this very thread, we had one poster describe voting on every single on-line poll with his disapproval.

Polls from the BSN (or other internet sites) are like taking a poll from the state of Texas, and projecting that to be the opinion of the entire nation. It might be. It might not be. But you CAN'T make that projection with anything resembling accuracy.

To this day, I do not understand why posters are so hellbent on demonstrating they are the majority opinion. WHAT DOES IT MATTER? If you are a minority opinion, are you going to change your opinion or something? If you hate the endings, are you going to suddenly LIKE them if a magical poll of every player shows that 90% of the players like or are at least not bothered by them? If you like them, will you hate them if the opinion proves to be the minority?

What exactly are you all trying to prove here?

I’m assuming this was directed at me. If not, I apologize.
 
For the umpthiest time, I never said these polls were “accurate”. I’m just stating the fact that they are showing a trend and those are the only concrete indicators we have so far. That’s all.
 
I’m not trying to prove anything. I thought the topic of this thread was discussing majority vs. minority, polls and so forth

[Dragoonlordz]

Benchpress610 wrote...

iDeevil wrote...
You can beg all you wish.

If you are seriously going to suggest to me that the polls are getting the same traffic they were a year ago.  Even a month ago, you'd be mistaken.  People are voting in them because they are moving on.

There are very few hold outs still willing to go that extra mile - or step as it were - for a year old game.

I fail to see your point. A poll is poll, old or new. It still represents a small fraction of the fan base. All I’m saying is no matter how small that fraction is, it still shows the same results as a year ago, which is revealing, since as you correctly said, most anti-enders have probably moved on.  Therefore, you would assume the balance must have shifted on pro-enders favor, and yet the polls still show an anti-ender majority.

All you have is a probability of it. You have to word it the right way.

Saying shows majority of fans dislike ending is wrong, it only shows a majority of those who voted dislike it and merely a probability that a higher percentage did not like it based on a poll. Like said earlier the "NotsoCleverNoob" and the OP made this same mistake. Saying you believe there is a trend is fine but what they have done by assuming because there is a probability; that the probability equals certainty and presented such as fact made them wrong and look very silly.

For example based on past evidence and history of Saddam in Iraq there was high probability of chemical weapons, this is not a factual statement; they went in and there was none so no matter how high the probability it turned out to be wrong. The OP and video claim such is factual based on high probability so in that case their statement is "Numbers Don't Lie: He has chemical weapons" of which they would be wrong just like now with regard to majority of fans...simply on the basis they made a factual statement about nothing more than probability.

Another example would be "75% of people in a poll voted in favor of candidate A over candidate B for the upcomming election", by the OP's and videos stance they would have said "Numbers Don't Lie: Candidate A will win the election by a landslide" when in reality Candidate B could win the election despite the poll. This again makes them wrong on the basis they made factual comment with reliance on probability and as always probability is not certainty; therefore cannot be used as factual outcome or evidence in making claims and statements.

Now if they had said "The majority in this poll disliked it, which leads to higher probability that more dislike than like", then they wouldn't of made themselves look so foolish. It also does not mean they are right. While the first part is accurate with certainty that within the people who voted on the poll the majority who voted disliked vs liked...it still remains merely a possibility and not a certainty that there is a probability of being more disliked than liked outside of the poll across the entire fanbase as a whole and which it might be true or it might not.

But as it stands right now their conclusion and statements are inaccurate, misleading, flawed and simply wrong.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I am just explaining why the OP is wrong and (not as clever as he thinks) CleverNoob is also wrong with his video. Trying to explain so you won't make same mistakes they did. To me you have not come across as aggressive so I have nothing against you, just trying to explain why many of us are trying to correct some misconceptions in this thread based on the OP's remarks and the premise of the video.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 mars 2013 - 03:15 .

[iDeevil]

Benchpress610 wrote...


I fail to see your point. A poll is poll, old or new. It still represents a small fraction of the fan base. All I’m saying is no matter how small that fraction is, it still shows the same results as a year ago, which is revealing, since as you correctly said, most anti-enders have probably moved on.  Therefore, you would assume the balance must have shifted on pro-enders favor, and yet the polls still show an anti-ender majority.

Where are these polls you are discussing that were taken just a week ago?  Are they here, or somwhere else.  If they are here, of course they are going to say the same thing.  People here are all repeating and rehashing the same thing as a year ago.

In the end

[askdodge]

I'm so upset that I'm not even upset any more, but when I first finished ME3, I was angry. So angry that I killed myself.

[Chala]

wolfsite wrote...

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

You need an Internet connection to play ME3. That's a fact.

That fact is only true for the PC, of course.

I stand corrected. I play on the PC, so I assumed consoles needed an Internet connection as well.

Don't give them ideas...

I think they already got that idea *Looks at next gen consoles*

PS4 will support offline.
I hope that the next Xbox does the same thing.

[Benchpress610]

@ Dragoonlordz

Well, I’m not basing my argument on what the OP said. Although I agree with most of his points, my argument has been since my first post that the preponderance of evidence shows an anti-ender majority (btw, I don’t like attaching labels to people, but it’s easier that way). I am an engineer, I work with numbers, the only numbers we have so far from polls here and elsewhere show a specific trend. Believe me I’d be very interested in seeing figures from other surveys that show otherwise.

Your very well written and articulate arguments sound logical and sound. However, they are based mostly in conjecture, assumptions and extrapolations.

For example your analogy about Saddam Hussein and chemical weapons, does not apply in this case since the assumption he had them was not based on a poll. It was based on the fact that he had them before and had used them against Iranian troops and later against the Kurdish people. There was no reason to believe he had gotten rid of them, thus the assumption.

Again, going back to my point; There is not concrete solid evidence to contradict the trend those polls are showing. And we might have to respectfully agree to disagree in this point.

[Wayning_Star]

actually the preponderance rule couldn't apply if the polling cannot be trusted, and it cannot, as it's unofficial, there is no rules in current polling. There is NO garantees of credibility, as there is NO authority to base a prepondrance upon the decision, regarding the validity of polls. Your argument has no legs, or the legs of the OP is incorrectly given credence by the very vague basis regarding poll taking. Just say'n