426 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr_Extrem]

iDeevil wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i dont trust statistics but bioware makes a statement, we all have to take for real - without providing something solid. this could mean, that they are not even interested in solving this dispute.

The solved the dispute the only way they have any intention of, the EC.  Unless Citadel has extra post ending stuff (which I doubt), it's end game.  Bioware will not write another ending, unless they end up making a sequel.

well . jessica merizan stating on twitter "we roled the numbers ..." but not showing them, is not very productive and only adds more petrol to the fire. 

if they have numbers and can show off, why not do it and calm this forum down once and for all? what are they afraid of, if the "vocal minority", really is a minority?

[iDeevil]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

It's not that hard or time consuming to do it in either place.  People ADMITTED to doing it.  Admitted to devaluing the system, all to show Bioware how big they felt the problem was.

I can't imagine why any of the Retakers would lie about doing this, because to lie about doing something so stupid would make you look even more ridiculous.

I'm still waiting for you to provide anything of substance.

That's what I have been waiting for from you, all you have provided is your assumptions. 

You assume that only 1 person voted multiple times.  A large number of people admited to doing it.

You assume what would have made people happy in the endings.  You cannot know this to be true.

You assume that the casual gamer hated the game and wont return.  You have yet to provide any evidence that this is so, except for polls people admitted to (to whatever degree) stacking.  This invalidates your point.

I never disagreed that the vocal and passionate hard core fans came out en mass when they got to the ending.  You assumed that's what I was saying.

Lots of assumptions.  Nothing else.

[Eterna]

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

As I've said before SHOW ME THE PROOF REFUTING THAT THE MAJORITY ARE UNHAPPY. Until then, all I hear are opinions. I've seen more than one source stating unhappiness is the majority, and NONE stating the opposite.

Show me the proof and I'm more than willing to change my opinion, I just don't believe the proof exists...


Show me the proof. 

That's not how it works. First you'd have to show proof that the majority are unhappy before it could be refuted.

I have never seen even one poll that pros outweigh the antis... And that's not just from the BSN but many different gaming sites. And while it might not be definitive proof. It's proof enough for me. Also remember that just because not everyone goes on forums, doesn't mean that everyone who didn't likes the ending.

Proof enough for you is fine, but it starts turning into a "we're using dreams as evidence" sort of thing when you try using it as proof in public like Megaverse was.

It should be enough for you too. If you can provide me with even one poll that has opposite results. Even if it's from "IloveMassEffectandBioWare.com." You can't say any different.

IF you're done with Mass Effect then what are you waiting for? 

[iDeevil]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

well . jessica merizan stating on twitter "we roled the numbers ..." but not showing them, is not very productive and only adds more petrol to the fire. 

if they have numbers and can show off, why not do it and calm this forum down once and for all? what are they afraid of, if the "vocal minority", really is a minority?

You will never have any company like this show you their market research.  They have it; intuit meaning; pass it on to relevant authorities.  People like Jessica and such NEVER get the numbers, they get the outcomes.  The numbers stay with the bean counters far away from those folk.

Those folk also include writers and programers.

[Dr_Extrem]

iDeevil wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

well . jessica merizan stating on twitter "we roled the numbers ..." but not showing them, is not very productive and only adds more petrol to the fire. 

if they have numbers and can show off, why not do it and calm this forum down once and for all? what are they afraid of, if the "vocal minority", really is a minority?

You will never have any company like this show you their market research.  They have it; intuit meaning; pass it on to relevant authorities.  People like Jessica and such NEVER get the numbers, they get the outcomes.  The numbers stay with the bean counters far away from those folk.

Those folk also include writers and programers.

i am not talking about market research .. i am taling about user numbers from ingame survey. like .. how many people still play the game and what ending do they choose. how mny people play up to cronos and then shut off the game. this is not really market research.

i would be satisfied with the outcome as well ...


in this case, merizan should not have mentioned the numbers at all. dont state something as fact, if you cant proove it. 

[Clayless]

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...


Another theory is they left this board due to how toxic it is, as expressing a positive opinion on the end is usually derailed deliberately by those that have a negative opinion on it.

I reckon that's because it's just easier to express why you don't like something rather than why you do. Most people I've seen when saying they like the endings either don't even say why, or just say "I like the concept" or something basic like that. You'll find all the criticism is a lot more thorough.

I disagree with the first sentence, I think it's because we pay more attention to negative things than positive things, most likely due to some psychological human thing.

As for the rest I'd disagree again. The hate and the love I've seen for the end appear to hold as much weight as each other. I've seen people that dislike it go "It betrays the theme" or some such, but when you point out to them that their supposed theme isn't actually the theme as it's very easy to play through the entire series with it not even/barely being present then most of them still keep the same opinion, they still dislike it.

Just as likely is the people that hate the ending or ME3 tend to ignore people that like it, such as the many awards ME3 won, fan vote included, or the glowing professional reviews, and tend to do things such as looking for a random person on Youtube to "back up" their opinion. Even in this thread I even learned that mearly asking a guy, who hates the end and is saying the majority does too, to back up their claim was enough to get me blocked. Not only does he want to ignore those that disagree with him, he wants to ignore those that even question his claims, as it doesn't agree with his opinion.

[IanPolaris]

iDeevil wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

It's not that hard or time consuming to do it in either place.  People ADMITTED to doing it.  Admitted to devaluing the system, all to show Bioware how big they felt the problem was.

I can't imagine why any of the Retakers would lie about doing this, because to lie about doing something so stupid would make you look even more ridiculous.

I'm still waiting for you to provide anything of substance.

That's what I have been waiting for from you, all you have provided is your assumptions. 

You assume that only 1 person voted multiple times.  A large number of people admited to doing it.

You assume what would have made people happy in the endings.  You cannot know this to be true.

You assume that the casual gamer hated the game and wont return.  You have yet to provide any evidence that this is so, except for polls people admitted to (to whatever degree) stacking.  This invalidates your point.

I never disagreed that the vocal and passionate hard core fans came out en mass when they got to the ending.  You assumed that's what I was saying.

Lots of assumptions.  Nothing else.

Here is the deal.  Multiple surveys done by a variety of different sources (both pro and anti Bioware) have all done surveys with very different samples and using very different methods, and the all basically say the same thing.  You can accuse the OP and the person that produced the video of being baised, but when you get multiple independant surveys both pre and post EC that all say essentially the same thing, then you have to conclude that the basic conclusion of those surveys is probably right.

Bioware could put this to bed immediately with a single scientific poll (and with proper statistical rigour, it could be done quite cheaply with as few as 500 people) by using an independant polling firm (and there are many that would do this for reasonable rates), and as a further bonus, since ME3 is all interconnected via Origin, data collecting (the hardest and most expensive part of the polling) would be a snap.  Futhermore, it is in Bioware's interest to do this if Mertzen's claim really is correct.

Yet they haven't done it.

Furthremore, they (Mertzen/Bioware) claim to have done their own internal surveys, yet given how interconnected the fanbase is, I find it almost impossible to believe they did any kind of rigourous survey without having at least some of us hear about it second hand.

Given that the OP and the video actually shows data (however flawed you may think it is) and given that bioware refuses to show any data (and we have no evidence that they even gathered any recently), I think we have to go with the OP and the video based on the preponderance of the evidence.

-Polaris

[iDeevil]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i am not talking about market research .. i am taling about user numbers from ingame survey. like .. how many people still play the game and what ending do they choose. how mny people play up to cronos and then shut off the game. this is not really market research.

i would be satisfied with the outcome as well ...


in this case, merizan should not have mentioned the numbers at all. dont state something as fact, if you cant proove it. 

That is market research.  Market research is any information they get from their 'market' or potential market.

All you need to know about the state of SP in ME3 is this.  They are going to be releasing a 4GB DLC this week.  If their research told them people were no longer playing, they would have scraped it because it wouldn't have been worth it.  Or it would be significantly shorter.

When people invest that kind of money in any venture, they have reason to believe that they'll make that money back and more.

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Here is the deal.  Multiple surveys done by a variety of different sources (both pro and anti Bioware) have all done surveys with very different samples and using very different methods, and the all basically say the same thing.  You can accuse the OP and the person that produced the video of being baised, but when you get multiple independant surveys both pre and post EC that all say essentially the same thing, then you have to conclude that the basic conclusion of those surveys is probably right.

Bioware could put this to bed immediately with a single scientific poll (and with proper statistical rigour, it could be done quite cheaply with as few as 500 people) by using an independant polling firm (and there are many that would do this for reasonable rates), and as a further bonus, since ME3 is all interconnected via Origin, data collecting (the hardest and most expensive part of the polling) would be a snap.  Futhermore, it is in Bioware's interest to do this if Mertzen's claim really is correct.

Yet they haven't done it.

Furthremore, they (Mertzen/Bioware) claim to have done their own internal surveys, yet given how interconnected the fanbase is, I find it almost impossible to believe they did any kind of rigourous survey without having at least some of us hear about it second hand.

Given that the OP and the video actually shows data (however flawed you may think it is) and given that bioware refuses to show any data (and we have no evidence that they even gathered any recently), I think we have to go with the OP and the video based on the preponderance of the evidence.

-Polaris

^^^Exactly this....like it or not those polls are substantial and real feedback. There is not ONE single thing to show positive feedback. You can dream that somehow every living creature that didn't participate absolutely loves the ending or that the people who wasted time creating a couple extra accounts for an extra vote had any meaningfull impact on all surveys everywhere but those are delusions at the very best.....and are based on absolutely nothing.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 03 mars 2013 - 10:45 .

[Clayless]

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Proof enough for you is fine, but it starts turning into a "we're using dreams as evidence" sort of thing when you try using it as proof in public like Megaverse was.

It should be enough for you too. If you can provide me with even one poll that has opposite results. Even if it's from "IloveMassEffectandBioWare.com." You can't say any different.

It's not. You should never be content to believe something that can't back itself up. You can think the majority hates ME3, just like I can think Zeus is coming to kill every living being on earth soon, but we shouldn't say others "Can't say any different" if we can't back up.

[ME859]

In regards to Merizan's numbers. I wonder if they just look at a good portion of people who bought the game and never finished it as justification, seeing as how many people don't finish games they buy . They also might look at people like me who grade the EC as a 'C' and count it as someone who approves the ending. Either way it's not so cut and dry as 'the people against the ending are in the minority.'

Why most people don't finish video games

"Just 10 years ago, I recall some standard that only 20% of gamers ever finish a game," says John Lee, VP of marketing at Raptr and former executive at Capcom, THQ and Sega.

And it's not just dull games that go unfinished. Critically acclaimed ones do, too. Take last year's "Red Dead Redemption." You might think Rockstar's gritty Western would be played more than others, given the praise it enjoyed, but you'd be wrong.Only 10% of avid gamers completed the final mission, according to Raptr, which tracks more than 23 million gaming sessions.Let that sink in for a minute: Of every 10 people who started playing the consensus "Game of the Year," only one of them finished."

Modifié par ME859, 03 mars 2013 - 10:51 .

[Dr_Extrem]

iDeevil wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i am not talking about market research .. i am taling about user numbers from ingame survey. like .. how many people still play the game and what ending do they choose. how mny people play up to cronos and then shut off the game. this is not really market research.

i would be satisfied with the outcome as well ...


in this case, merizan should not have mentioned the numbers at all. dont state something as fact, if you cant proove it. 

That is market research.  Market research is any information they get from their 'market' or potential market.

All you need to know about the state of SP in ME3 is this.  They are going to be releasing a 4GB DLC this week.  If their research told them people were no longer playing, they would have scraped it because it wouldn't have been worth it.  Or it would be significantly shorter.

When people invest that kind of money in any venture, they have reason to believe that they'll make that money back and more.

and this has nothing to do wiht the 1o1 of making statemtents. "dont make statements, that you can not proof."


btw. the ec was short and did not contain new maps ect. still, it was about 2 gigs in total - but the size was caused by the slides at the end, who are bik-video files. 

in this case, size does not matter.

[Indy_S]

I've run all the numbers, seen all the results and all I can conclude from it is that it's inconclusive.

However, these polls are not just to be dismissed. The visible indicators for customer satisfaction are showing negatives. A fix for this situation requires more than just PR spin and we don't even get that. Without evidence to back it up, Merizan's tweet is just dismissing the issue.

[IanPolaris]

Indy_S wrote...

I've run all the numbers, seen all the results and all I can conclude from it is that it's inconclusive.

However, these polls are not just to be dismissed. The visible indicators for customer satisfaction are showing negatives. A fix for this situation requires more than just PR spin and we don't even get that. Without evidence to back it up, Merizan's tweet is just dismissing the issue.

Exactly.  A Bioware rep shouldn't make an objective claim (even on Twitter) if she isn't prepared to back it up with objective data....especially when the publically availalbe data seems to disagree with her.

-Polaris

[Indy_S]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

btw. the ec was short and did not contain new maps ect. still, it was about 2 gigs in total - but the size was caused by the slides at the end, who are bik-video files. 

I still don't understand why they did that. That thing should not have been more than 500meg. It seems like they have an issue with compressing things.

[Dr_Extrem]

Indy_S wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

btw. the ec was short and did not contain new maps ect. still, it was about 2 gigs in total - but the size was caused by the slides at the end, who are bik-video files. 

I still don't understand why they did that. That thing should not have been more than 500meg. It seems like they have an issue with compressing things.

why compress it, if you dont have to?

[IanPolaris]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

btw. the ec was short and did not contain new maps ect. still, it was about 2 gigs in total - but the size was caused by the slides at the end, who are bik-video files. 

I still don't understand why they did that. That thing should not have been more than 500meg. It seems like they have an issue with compressing things.

why compress it, if you dont have to?

Bandwidth?  I don't know all the technical details but it seems silly to make a download bigger than you have to.

-POlaris

[Indy_S]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

why compress it, if you dont have to?

It's set for digital distribution. No matter what, you want to compress things.

And I just realised I meant optimising in my quoted post. If they were pictures instead of videos, a great deal of that size would be cut out. Similarly, the audio for everything should be easily optimised and compressed. The amount of content in that DLC did not warrant 2GB in any way.

[tevix]

The Merizan post still bugs me. I know Clevernoob is an a-- but that didn't make sense to me.

"Our data says your the minority."

"What's your data say then?"

"That's secret"

Why hide it? They have stood behind the game, the ending and how they've handled it without flinching this entire time. Why would you be afraid to show your data if it backed up your point of view?

[ME859]

Indy_S wrote...

I've run all the numbers, seen all the results and all I can conclude from it is that it's inconclusive.

However, these polls are not just to be dismissed. The visible indicators for customer satisfaction are showing negatives. A fix for this situation requires more than just PR spin and we don't even get that. Without evidence to back it up, Merizan's tweet is just dismissing the issue.

I think the reason we're still dealing with backlash from the endings is that when the big wigs at Bioware were planning the EC their main focus was "maintaining their artistic vision."  It was either that or the less likely "whats the bare minimum we need to do to fix this."  Neither of which was going to produce a desireable result.  

Had they gone into it with the focus being on "how do we make something special that our fans will love" then I feel like the end result would have been much much much different.  In fact, as it has been pointed out numerous times, CDPR seemed to take on this exact attitude when they went back and worked on the Witcher 2 endings, which turned into lavish praise and recogntion from the gaming community.  

Of course you will always have holdouts and people that are not satisfied but to use that as a blanket excuse doesn't really work.  Mainly because a lot of the people against the ending were at one point satisfied with Mass Effect.  The only reason they're disatisfied to begin with is because at some point in time they were satisfied with your product.  

[Darth_Trethon]

ME859 wrote...

In regards to Merizan's numbers. I wonder if they just look at a good portion of people who bought the game and never finished it as justification, seeing as how many people don't finish games they buy . They also might look at people like me who grade the EC as a 'C' and count it as someone who approves the ending. Either way it's not so cut and dry as 'the people against the ending are in the minority.'

Why most people don't finish video games

"Just 10 years ago, I recall some standard that only 20% of gamers ever finish a game," says John Lee, VP of marketing at Raptr and former executive at Capcom, THQ and Sega.

And it's not just dull games that go unfinished. Critically acclaimed ones do, too. Take last year's "Red Dead Redemption." You might think Rockstar's gritty Western would be played more than others, given the praise it enjoyed, but you'd be wrong.Only 10% of avid gamers completed the final mission, according to Raptr, which tracks more than 23 million gaming sessions.Let that sink in for a minute: Of every 10 people who started playing the consensus "Game of the Year," only one of them finished."

Doesn't entirely apply here because the people that buy DLC are usually the 10% that didn't just drop it and are willing to keep playing. Plus the DLC can only be played in the second half of the game which isn't consistent with pleasing the crowd that quits. So whatever data Merizan operates on isn't anywhere near as accurate as she thinks. Personally I doubt she's ever used any actual data that BioWare much cared about.

[iDeevil]

IanPolaris wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

That's what I have been waiting for from you, all you have provided is your assumptions. 

You assume that only 1 person voted multiple times.  A large number of people admited to doing it.

You assume what would have made people happy in the endings.  You cannot know this to be true.

You assume that the casual gamer hated the game and wont return.  You have yet to provide any evidence that this is so, except for polls people admitted to (to whatever degree) stacking.  This invalidates your point.

I never disagreed that the vocal and passionate hard core fans came out en mass when they got to the ending.  You assumed that's what I was saying.

Lots of assumptions.  Nothing else.

Here is the deal.  Multiple surveys done by a variety of different sources (both pro and anti Bioware) have all done surveys with very different samples and using very different methods, and the all basically say the same thing.  You can accuse the OP and the person that produced the video of being baised, but when you get multiple independant surveys both pre and post EC that all say essentially the same thing, then you have to conclude that the basic conclusion of those surveys is probably right.

I don't disagree that people within the vacuum feel this way.  Not at all.  I am arguing a) one of the survey's are a statistical nightmare.  When most of the options are shades of hate/displeasure you're going to get that value as primary.  That is a bias

  I don't buy that the sampling is representative of all gamers, specifically in relation to the casual gamer who doesn't bother with polls and websites.

and C) That this video is what holds true as a statisitical fact *today*.

and for a moinor D) The IT would have been everyones preferred solution as the end game.  This isn't even quantified anywhere I have seen.

Furthremore, they (Mertzen/Bioware) claim to have done their own internal surveys, yet given how interconnected the fanbase is, I find it almost impossible to believe they did any kind of rigourous survey without having at least some of us hear about it second hand.

It is actually somewhat possible.  It really depends on where and how they are getting their samples.

Given that the OP and the video actually shows data (however flawed you may think it is) and given that bioware refuses to show any data (and we have no evidence that they even gathered any recently), I think we have to go with the OP and the video based on the preponderance of the evidence.

By the proponderance of evidence I say all sides fail in proving anything.  The video is just a qualifiable and quantifiable failure.  It's more about publicising himself and his own wants then anything else.

Bioware hasn't proven anything, but the fact that they have produced such a large DLC does lend creedence to the belief that both the DLC's are selling well and people are still playing the game.

And rarely will a fan ever speak for themselves in these parts.  They always like to be talking for the 'majority', and because of that they find it hard (on any side) to prove, disprove or have a freaking discussion.

[Jadebaby]

Robosexual wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Proof enough for you is fine, but it starts turning into a "we're using dreams as evidence" sort of thing when you try using it as proof in public like Megaverse was.

It should be enough for you too. If you can provide me with even one poll that has opposite results. Even if it's from "IloveMassEffectandBioWare.com." You can't say any different.

It's not. You should never be content to believe something that can't back itself up. You can think the majority hates ME3, just like I can think Zeus is coming to kill every living being on earth soon, but we shouldn't say others "Can't say any different" if we can't back up.

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen a poll where the pros are the majority. Can you refute that?

[iDeevil]

Dr_Extrem wrote...


and this has nothing to do wiht the 1o1 of making statemtents. "dont make statements, that you can not proof."


btw. the ec was short and did not contain new maps ect. still, it was about 2 gigs in total - but the size was caused by the slides at the end, who are bik-video files. 

in this case, size does not matter.

It does.  Size costs.  Size costs them A LOT.  Especially when they have to break the DLC over 2 downloads on Xbox.

When something costs, it matters.

[Jadebaby]

Eterna5 wrote...

IF you're done with Mass Effect then what are you waiting for? 

You can't get rid of me Eterna, I am apart of you now. As long as you are here, I always will be.

We're in this together Hank.