426 réponses à ce sujet

[iDeevil]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
So whatever data Merizan operates on isn't anywhere near as accurate as she thinks. Personally I doubt she's ever used any actual data that BioWare much cared about.

How do you figure that?

[genocidal villain]

Numbers don't lie: Majority of bioware fans are still upset OVER A YEAR about the ending.

Geez move on.

[Clayless]

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's not. You should never be content to believe something that can't back itself up. You can think the majority hates ME3, just like I can think Zeus is coming to kill every living being on earth soon, but we shouldn't say others "Can't say any different" if we can't back up.

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen a poll where the pros are the majority. Can you refute that?

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

[Yaos]

Are you guys dense ?

STATISTICS does not makes PROOFS. They are ESTIMATIONS. You can't PROOVE the majority dislikes the endings but you can look at POLLS that ESTIMATE it.
A PROOF that the majority disliked the ending would be to gather 2 millions people to gather and answer a poll. That's not how polls works.

You should discuss whether you think the numbers presented here can best estimate it instead of discussing how you can never proove one or the other, God, this is beyond silly.

[DirtyPhoenix]

oblique9 wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

hai guise

did u no biower fan majority still upset

OP in a nutshell.

[IanPolaris]

iDeevil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

That's what I have been waiting for from you, all you have provided is your assumptions. 

You assume that only 1 person voted multiple times.  A large number of people admited to doing it.

You assume what would have made people happy in the endings.  You cannot know this to be true.

You assume that the casual gamer hated the game and wont return.  You have yet to provide any evidence that this is so, except for polls people admitted to (to whatever degree) stacking.  This invalidates your point.

I never disagreed that the vocal and passionate hard core fans came out en mass when they got to the ending.  You assumed that's what I was saying.

Lots of assumptions.  Nothing else.

Here is the deal.  Multiple surveys done by a variety of different sources (both pro and anti Bioware) have all done surveys with very different samples and using very different methods, and the all basically say the same thing.  You can accuse the OP and the person that produced the video of being baised, but when you get multiple independant surveys both pre and post EC that all say essentially the same thing, then you have to conclude that the basic conclusion of those surveys is probably right.

I don't disagree that people within the vacuum feel this way.  Not at all.  I am arguing a) one of the survey's are a statistical nightmare.  When most of the options are shades of hate/displeasure you're going to get that value as primary.  That is a bias

  I don't buy that the sampling is representative of all gamers, specifically in relation to the casual gamer who doesn't bother with polls and websites.

Evidence for this would be nice, hence the need for a true scientific poll.  Absent that, we have one side presenting data, while the other is claiming they have data to the contrary, but won't show it.  Colour me skeptical.

and C) That this video is what holds true as a statisitical fact *today*.

and for a moinor D) The IT would have been everyones preferred solution as the end game.  This isn't even quantified anywhere I have seen.

Given the data 'noob' presented, that seems to be the case.  Again, if you have different data, I would like to see it.

Furthremore, they (Mertzen/Bioware) claim to have done their own internal surveys, yet given how interconnected the fanbase is, I find it almost impossible to believe they did any kind of rigourous survey without having at least some of us hear about it second hand.

It is actually somewhat possible.  It really depends on where and how they are getting their samples.

No it's really highly unlikely.  The number of copies (not total sales) is actually very small when you look at it on a global scale.  Most cities have populations that are higher.  It would be very hard for Bioware to do a meaningful survey without having that fact (that a survey was being done) leak.  Look at the early DA3 market surveys. 

Given that the OP and the video actually shows data (however flawed you may think it is) and given that bioware refuses to show any data (and we have no evidence that they even gathered any recently), I think we have to go with the OP and the video based on the preponderance of the evidence.

By the proponderance of evidence I say all sides fail in proving anything.  The video is just a qualifiable and quantifiable failure.  It's more about publicising himself and his own wants then anything else.

You can question that data, but it does show multiple surveys from multiple sources, and done by multiple sponsers both pro and anti EA.  Unless you can show me better and more rigourous data that shows otherwise, I have to say that "noob" has shown his basic case to at least the preponderance level.

Bioware hasn't proven anything, but the fact that they have produced such a large DLC does lend creedence to the belief that both the DLC's are selling well and people are still playing the game.

Not really.  It might mean (and I am inclined to think this) that ME3 is being propped up by it's multiplayer component and the resulting microtransactions.  This is why I am very, very suspicious when people quote ME3 sales figures in comparison to other ME series games that did not have a MP and microtransaction component.  Basically we need to compare apples to apples, and that means we need to exclude the MP based sales/profit figure to get a true comparison.

And rarely will a fan ever speak for themselves in these parts.  They always like to be talking for the 'majority', and because of that they find it hard (on any side) to prove, disprove or have a freaking discussion.

Actually it's my observation that BSN has become something of a pro-ending holdout (at least more so than perhaps other places) since those that didn't like the endings have by and large given up on ME.  That's my take anyway for what it's worth.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

iDeevil wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...
So whatever data Merizan operates on isn't anywhere near as accurate as she thinks. Personally I doubt she's ever used any actual data that BioWare much cared about.

How do you figure that?

Because if her data was based on even a reasonable scientific survey done by an independant firm (even as little as 500 respondants), we would have known that such a survey was done.  There aren't that many people that play ME3 as a global population and because of the Origin requirement, we all are pretty much well connected via the internet.  That being so, we would have heard about such data gathering (as we did for DA3 before it was officially announced).

-Polaris

[Darth_Trethon]

iDeevil wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...
So whatever data Merizan operates on isn't anywhere near as accurate as she thinks. Personally I doubt she's ever used any actual data that BioWare much cared about.

How do you figure that?

You'd know if you didn't cut the rest of my comment.

[Jadebaby]

Robosexual wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's not. You should never be content to believe something that can't back itself up. You can think the majority hates ME3, just like I can think Zeus is coming to kill every living being on earth soon, but we shouldn't say others "Can't say any different" if we can't back up.

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen a poll where the pros are the majority. Can you refute that?

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

What you said and what I said are not the same. What proof do you have that Zeus IS going to destroy every being on earth soon? I bet it's not a concrete as the polls.

[Reorte]

Robosexual wrote...

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

The big difference there is that you can't offer any evidence to suggest that Zeus is going to kill everyone either. Not being able to completely prove one point of view doesn't mean that the opposite one is therefore equally plausible.

[Reorte]

IanPolaris wrote...

Because if her data was based on even a reasonable scientific survey done by an independant firm (even as little as 500 respondants), we would have known that such a survey was done.  There aren't that many people that play ME3 as a global population and because of the Origin requirement, we all are pretty much well connected via the internet.  That being so, we would have heard about such data gathering (as we did for DA3 before it was officially announced).

What does the Origin data tell anyone? Just what they've done, not what they thought of it. It's probably a reasonable inference that anyone who kept replaying the game solidly from the moment it was released was happy with it but that's about as far as I'd go there.

[IanPolaris]

Reorte wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

The big difference there is that you can't offer any evidence to suggest that Zeus is going to kill everyone either. Not being able to completely prove one point of view doesn't mean that the opposite one is therefore equally plausible.

Even more to the point, it is very bad form (to say the least) to suggest that you have data that shows that Zeus is going to kill everyone, and then not be willing to disclose that data.

-Polaris

[Jadebaby]

Reorte wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

The big difference there is that you can't offer any evidence to suggest that Zeus is going to kill everyone either. Not being able to completely prove one point of view doesn't mean that the opposite one is therefore equally plausible.

Furthermore, what *does* qualify as definitive proof? How could BioWare have collected such feedback as to be able to say that they are not the majority? What if they did survey every single person who played it? Well then people would say what about the people that didn't? And then after they forced everyone to play it, they would say.. Well what about the people in third world countries who don't have access to games? And then after they played it, they'd say what about animals? Can we teach them to critique our work?

My point is it's near impossible to gain 100% proof, we just have to take what we have, and what we have is a lot of anti-winning polls and complaints.

[Clayless]

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

What you said and what I said are not the same. What proof do you have that Zeus IS going to destroy every being on earth soon? I bet it's not a concrete as the polls.

What proof do you have that the majority hates the endings?

Modifié par Robosexual, 03 mars 2013 - 11:33 .

[IanPolaris]

Reorte wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Because if her data was based on even a reasonable scientific survey done by an independant firm (even as little as 500 respondants), we would have known that such a survey was done.  There aren't that many people that play ME3 as a global population and because of the Origin requirement, we all are pretty much well connected via the internet.  That being so, we would have heard about such data gathering (as we did for DA3 before it was officially announced).

What does the Origin data tell anyone? Just what they've done, not what they thought of it. It's probably a reasonable inference that anyone who kept replaying the game solidly from the moment it was released was happy with it but that's about as far as I'd go there.

The Origin data can tell an independant pollster who owns the game, who has played it, who has completed it, and that pollster can get some initial demographic data from the Origin account as well (such as gamer location).  That is a huge head start in selecting a valid sample space for a followup poll likely via email or some other contact method.  Furthermore the origin database can be used this way until the pollster gets enough responses with proper representation to get a viable poll.

-Polaris

[iDeevil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Evidence for this would be nice, hence the need for a true scientific poll.  Absent that, we have one side presenting data, while the other is claiming they have data to the contrary, but won't show it.  Colour me skeptical.

And that's my argument.  We don't know.  Everything is an assumption on this topic.  Present it as factual is disingenuous

and C) That this video is what holds true as a statisitical fact *today*.

and for a moinor D) The IT would have been everyones preferred solution as the end game.  This isn't even quantified anywhere I have seen.

Given the data 'noob' presented, that seems to be the case.  Again, if you have different data, I would like to see it.

To be fair to you, you may not know that the video maker made a deature length 'conspiracy' in which he proved through 'unnamed' and ultimately non-existant sources that IT *was* going to happen.  It was intentionally left out, etc etc etc.  That it was going to be in an additional DLC, and the story goes on.

Now that it's obvious that it's not going to happen, he is going out of his way to prove everyone wanted it.  He is extremely biased, and given some of the BS he has come up with I wouldn't put it past him to have made up some of the 'evidence' he claims as factual.

No it's really highly unlikely.  The number of copies (not total sales) is actually very small when you look at it on a global scale.  Most cities have populations that are higher.  It would be very hard for Bioware to do a meaningful survey without having that fact (that a survey was being done) leak.  Look at the early DA3 market surveys. 

To be honest, I am not sure what they have done - if anything - I'm just saying it is possible to keep things on the DL if you put in the effort. 

You can question that data, but it does show multiple surveys from multiple sources, and done by multiple sponsers both pro and anti EA.  Unless you can show me better and more rigourous data that shows otherwise, I have to say that "noob" has shown his basic case to at least the preponderance level.

I say seeing his other 'proof' at other times he has done jack all.  Even if he was 100% right, he is not a believable source of information IMO.

Not really.  It might mean (and I am inclined to think this) that ME3 is being propped up by it's multiplayer component and the resulting microtransactions.  This is why I am very, very suspicious when people quote ME3 sales figures in comparison to other ME series games that did not have a MP and microtransaction component.  Basically we need to compare apples to apples, and that means we need to exclude the MP based sales/profit figure to get a true comparison.

This may be true.  Who the hell knows.  We are as in the dark as every other fan.  We're all probably way off base .

Actually it's my observation that BSN has become something of a pro-ending holdout (at least more so than perhaps other places) since those that didn't like the endings have by and large given up on ME.  That's my take anyway for what it's worth.

-Polaris

I was talking about a large number of fans on all sides.  All I hear is "50,1% of people think like me, YAY'.  Okay, not that exactly, but you get the gist.  Few are willing to just speak for themselves, and that includes 1 year on "I stil hate the ending" or "I love it' or "I don't really care.  Wanna screw my LI".

Modifié par iDeevil, 03 mars 2013 - 11:37 .

[iDeevil]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...
So whatever data Merizan operates on isn't anywhere near as accurate as she thinks. Personally I doubt she's ever used any actual data that BioWare much cared about.

How do you figure that?

You'd know if you didn't cut the rest of my comment.

Well yes, I should I reworded that.  What evidence do you have to suggest this to be true.  But then again, in the end, evidence at this point is about as usless as ****** on a bull.  It doesn't matter, nothing is going to change.

People are either going to play ME3 or not, or buy the ME3 DLC or not.  It just *is*

[IanPolaris]

Robosexual wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

But that doesn't back up your claim, that's not how it works, watch:

I can back it up. I'm going to say a factual statement right now. I've never seen anything that showed that Zeus isn't going to destroy every being on earth soon. Can you refute that?

Don't you see? That doesn't back up my claim that Zeus is going to kill every living being on earth if someone can't refute it. That's not how burden of proof works. If I make a claim I have to back it up. Someone not making a counter claim isn't proof of my claim.

What you said and what I said are not the same. What proof do you have that Zeus IS going to destroy every being on earth soon? I bet it's not a concrete as the polls.

What proof do you have that the majority hates the endings?

Define "proof".  Unless you can interview every simple person that has played and finished ME3 (very unlikely), you aren't going to get absolute proof..and such is highly unreasonable.   However, we can look at data from sample sizes of people that have played and completed ME3 and come up with at least some conclusions.  The better the data collection, the better those conclusions will be.

-Polaris

[Indy_S]

If there's doubt that the majority of consumers liked your product, that's a sign that something is wrong. Regardless of whether or not the majority hates the ending, it remains a significant portion of the consumer base. This should not be dismissed.

[Jadebaby]

Polaris knows the score. These polls are better than nothing, and nothing is all you have Robosexual.

[IanPolaris]

Indy_S wrote...

If there's doubt that the majority of consumers liked your product, that's a sign that something is wrong. Regardless of whether or not the majority hates the ending, it remains a significant portion of the consumer base. This should not be dismissed.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that even a plurality were neutral or worse on a customer satisfaction survey, you need to take a hard look at what you are doing....for pretty much any commercial product or venture.

-Polaris

[Clayless]

IanPolaris wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

What proof do you have that the majority hates the endings?

Define "proof".  Unless you can interview every simple person that has played and finished ME3 (very unlikely), you aren't going to get absolute proof..and such is highly unreasonable.   However, we can look at data from sample sizes of people that have played and completed ME3 and come up with at least some conclusions.  The better the data collection, the better those conclusions will be.

-Polaris

Proof would be proof that the majority hates it.

Right now the biggest numbers we have on people that hate the ending are the Retake movement, which happen to be 1.8% of the people that bought ME3 or 4.2% of the people that bought ME3 in March alone.

That means 98.2% of people or 95.8% of people didn't vote.

Now you can come to a conclusion that if 4.2% of people think something the majority agrees with them, but that's really shaky ground to stand on and really isn't proof at all.

[Jadebaby]

you have to then account for the fact that only 38% of people even finished the game.

[IanPolaris]

Robosexual wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

What proof do you have that the majority hates the endings?

Define "proof".  Unless you can interview every simple person that has played and finished ME3 (very unlikely), you aren't going to get absolute proof..and such is highly unreasonable.   However, we can look at data from sample sizes of people that have played and completed ME3 and come up with at least some conclusions.  The better the data collection, the better those conclusions will be.

-Polaris

Proof would be proof that the majority hates it.

Right now the biggest numbers we have on people that hate the ending are the Retake movement, which happen to be 1.8% of the people that bought ME3 or 4.2% of the people that bought ME3 in March alone.

That means 98.2% of people or 95.8% of people didn't vote.

Now you can come to a conclusion that if 4.2% of people think something the majority agrees with them, but that's really shaky ground to stand on and really isn't proof at all.

You have just tossed out any validity of all polling and the value of polling pretty much ever.  I don't accept that.  Polls may not be prefectly accurate, but they can (and often do) give very useful and valid feedback of what a large population thinks based on a very small sample size.

For example, one can (if one does it correctly) get a very accurate national poll for the US (apprx 300million people) with a sample size as small as 500 people.

-POlaris

[iDeevil]

Indy_S wrote...

If there's doubt that the majority of consumers liked your product, that's a sign that something is wrong. Regardless of whether or not the majority hates the ending, it remains a significant portion of the consumer base. This should not be dismissed.

And this is why they are doing a ground swell of market research for future ventures.  ME3's ending was in the bag back in March.  It's time to look forward.  Bioware do seem to have learnt from this, even if we aren't seeing a change in this game.

What makes me sad that *if* the leaked ending was meant to be what we were going to get, what we did get is a direct result of some ass leaking the script early sending people to hurridly rewrite a new ending.