79 réponses à ce sujet

[Blakes 7]

I would seriously like to know; And sorry but this is a bit of a whine

This game seems aimed at a mainstream and hardcore audience; (and reveals itself through the game design choices beyond the obvious control issue differences/preferences)

It is a compromise; and inevitable that both groups will feel somewhat disappointed for the game not being more mainstream or for not being hardcore enough. And many threads have indicated as such ie difficulty complaints

  stupid strategy on bioware/ea's part - this game could have been more but seems like its core elements are watered down.

People would complain if modern warfare 2 suddenly wanted spiky haired emo kids with giant swords tacked onto it so why does a crpg need casual mainstream elements. (deserted and empty feeling cities, npcs called "gossips", no descriptors for abilities, mmo like messageboard quests, restricted pathing that leads you around rather than letting you explore, floaty arrows for quest people, and many more...)

aka - you cannot promise a green car that runs on solar and then have it only run as far as the gas station before you have to fill up on unleaded.

I'm more worried about the fact that for any sequels/expansions one group of fans is going to be left disappointed by the changes bioware must make to make a quality title ~ be it either more casual or more hardcore. Although I would prefer that a crpg be a crpg.

This probably depends on who is the majority fan - most likely the mainstream audience is the majority in terms of initial sales. (highly likely)

The game is probably going to have to become more casual in future for game consistency sake between versions etc ; throwing more or less mobs at people will not satisfy peoples desire for more casual/hardcore elements.

However I suspect the hardcore audience will perservere the longest with this game due to the mod scene while the console gamers may be tempted to move on.

The logical outcome in this scenario is that the game will become more what hardcore gamers want - at least in terms of expansions if not sequels. (due to them being the majority audience for this content - both consuming and producing)

For the sequel it will probably be more promising an authentic crpg experience and getting a more casual product. Due to the decision resting with getting as many numbers as possible to play regardless of what it does to the game design. (its the corporate motive - can't fault it)

I guess the simple point I'm trying to make is that no game can promise to be all things to all people but should focus on satisfying a particular audience.
Just thing what modern warfare 2 would play like with jrpg elements attached 

Whine over 

[wwwwowwww]

SOrry but I'm confused, what do you consider hard core?



I'm not really understanding your problem with the game.

[Asylumer]

...ok. Care to explain why Dragon Age is hardcore?



Which parts do you find "hardcore" and which do you think "mainstream"?

[Blakes 7]

Not a problem more a question as in 'who is the actual audience that bioware is targeting with this game?'

I would like to know, so that I can decide whether or not I'll bother with the expansion

ie what changes bioware makes in terms of gameplay reflects what they think the audience will appreciate. So I am asking if I am the intended audience otherwise I'll move on

To answer you asylumer; I coined the phrase 'hardcore' as it has been used by others to express their preferences; I just consider these preferences decent crpg mechanics

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:15 .

[wwwwowwww]

Well if you liked DOA why wouldn't you want to get the expansion? They are going to target those that bought the Origins game by continuing the story they've created would be my guess. Just like DOA I'd expect it to have a mixture of both great story and great battles.

[Xandurpein]

The core audience for Bioware are everyone who loves a story driven game where a major part of immersion comes from conversations rather than just visuals and game mechanics. Dragon Age is aimed to a more mature audience who enjoys a bit darker story than previously.

That is at least how I understand it, and that is what sets any Bioware game apart for CRPG like say Oblivion. I think you miss the point if you just focus on game mechanics, deserted towns and message boards. While some want "hardcore" (your term) RPG rules and others prefer casual rules, there is nothing "casual" about the story and the characters.

By some people's definition Oblivion was a more "hardcore" RPG with open ended travel and so on. By contrast I think Oblivion was very "casual" when it came to social interaction and conversations. I think Bioware hit a nice balance for the game mechanics and focused on what is unique for them - the really amazing attention to characters and storytelling. I do not wish them to deviate from that.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:23 .

[Blakes 7]

I liked dao up to a point; but I lost interest due to mechanics I felt diluted its key strengths

ie. tactical battles = win BUT creature ai = lose
spell abilities = win BUT lack of specific information on spells = lose
good story = win BUT illusion of choice = lose

Some of the casual elements I listed in my OP
"deserted and empty feeling cities, npcs called "gossips", no descriptors for abilities, mmo like messageboard quests, restricted pathing that leads you around rather than letting you explore, floaty arrows for quest people, and many more..."

I think you guys have rather missed the point of my post, to summarise

The role playing game has become somewhat simpler...not necessarily knocking it

So the question becomes:

Do you think these casual elements belong in a crpg?

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:27 .

[T1l]

Blakes 7 wrote...

Who is dragon ages core audience?

Fanfic writers, bi-sexuals, gay people and / or people with unhealthy obsessions with video game characters, if the forums are anything to go by.

The reality is that it's targeted at Biowares' fans; the RPG crowd. We're a dying breed.

Modifié par T1l, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:29 .

[wwwwowwww]

I'm not sure what you mean by no descriptors for abilities. I read what every ability did before choosing it. Sounds to me, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that your looking for what I call a BPG (Battle Playing Game) and not and RPG (Role Playing Game) there is a difference in that one is pretty much focused on nothing but the action, battles and so on, while the other focuses on those things but also takes the time to flush out characters and does it's best to put you in the role of the character thuse immersing yourself in the story and world involved.

[Lenimph]

T1l wrote...

Blakes 7 wrote...

Who is dragon ages core audience?

Fanfic writers, bi-sexuals, gay people and / or people with unhealthy obsessions with video game characters, if the forums are anything to go by.

The reality is that it's targeted at Biowares' fans; the RPG crowd. We're a dying breed.

lol I fit 3 of those descriptions all at once.  If that isn't hardcore I don't know what is.

[Blakes 7]

Those examples were more to give you pertinent examples wwwwowwww so you could appreciate what I was saying.

By decent mechanics I liked the traps that the thief sets, but not so much that they weren't very damaging; or that pickpocketing or looting chests was not worthwhile

Or that I couldn't get drunk in a bar and start a bar fight or something; or have a rowdy get together with my party in a bar etc (So I'm asking for more roleplaying elements if that helps rather than less ~ call that hardcore if you will)

Generally speaking being a crpg fan is considered being a rare breed no? 

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:33 .

[wwwwowwww]

ah I'm with you now, i think, lol



I myself was rather disappointed with what was in chests, seemed like they all contained some mundane POC that wasnt' even worth locking up. I didn't do a lot of pick pocketing but I did read a post earlier tonight that said you can make a lot of money that way.



As for getting drunk in a bar, lol, I actually wrote a thread about some things I would like to see implemented into the game and that sort of thing was one of them, but reading comments by DG earlier tonight it doesn't sound like the engine supports that sort of thing nor the budget alloted for the game itself.



I'm guessing, now that I think I understand you, that your a lot like mean, started playing pen and paper games way back when and got to role play a lot.

[Xandurpein]

wwwwowwww wrote...

I'm not sure what you mean by no descriptors for abilities. I read what every ability did before choosing it. Sounds to me, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that your looking for what I call a BPG (Battle Playing Game) and not and RPG (Role Playing Game) there is a difference in that one is pretty much focused on nothing but the action, battles and so on, while the other focuses on those things but also takes the time to flush out characters and does it's best to put you in the role of the character thuse immersing yourself in the story and world involved.

It basically comes down to if you want Oblivion or Dragon Age. Oblivion was great for immersion with some, but I found it sterile and uninspiring. Any CRPG story is about illusion of choice. The only way to eliminate the illusion of choice is to eliminate the story.

[phordicus]

BW probably wanted to be able to introduce new kids to what a "real" crpg can be while still being true to the genre's legacy and the company's heritage.



EA, otoh, wants as many people as possible to buy this game which is why there are so many concessions to the naive, the dense, and the ADHD generation.

[Blakes 7]

This is probably true phordicus, sadly. Still the bright spark is that with the recession people will have to knuckle down, and that could maybe filter through into a smarter choice regarding the gaming dollar. ie value for money game like an rpg which provides countless hours rather than a fps that provides 10 tops barring multiplayer

[Kalfear]

I think Dragon Age Origins is targeted to Adult RPG fantasy fans mostly. Those folks that would be just as at home reading, say "Wheel of Time" or "Sword of Truth" fantasy series.

From your complaints and posts (meaning OP) I take it you are the Oblivion, Fall Out3, Morrowind type of player that wants action over story. So I can definately understand why you not happy with game! This game has a rich background that requires alot of reading and thinking to it. Its more then just your generic set up with a throw away story like the games I mentioned above.

As for alive cities, I dont need senceless, non communicating, in the way NPCs in my games to let my imagination work for me. I hated all the useless NPCs in Morrowind and Oblivion that did nothing but take up processor power and get in the way! In this case, LESS IS MORE every single time!

But there is a reason why My top ten list has the games it has and stuff like Fallout3, Morrowind,and Oblivion dont even get a sniff or mention on the list! Quality over quantity will always win me over.

PS: Just so we straight, Dragon Age Creature AI (and Mass Effect creature AI) are 1000000000000 times more advanced then anything found in the 3 games I mentioned aboved. Those 3 games AI were beyond idiotic and predictable!

Thats how I found it anyways. DA:O has a rich story, complexe tactics, and above average monster AI and thats just not going to be for everyone! To each their own.

My top 10 list
1) Mass Effect
2) DA:O
3)KotOR2
4)KotOR
5)Jade Empire
6-10) SSI Gold Box Games

You know, I can honestly say Fallout3, Oblivion, Morrowind dont even crack my top 15 list, possibly top 20.

Modifié par Kalfear, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:05 .

[Asylumer]

Blakes 7 wrote...

Or that I couldn't get drunk in a bar and start a bar fight or something; or have a rowdy get together with my party in a bar etc (So I'm asking for more roleplaying elements if that helps rather than less ~ call that hardcore if you will)

I think it's safe to say Bioware would've implemented a lot more if they had the time and money to do such. That isn't casual/hardcore, that's just... business.

[Blakes 7]

You know with the exception of morrowind those games don't make my list either but thanks for stereotyping me as the 'action gamer!'



For a fact I like crpg's the best and just because I criticise dragon age for not having enough role playing mechanics you think I'm an action gamer...huh??



Please read again; my complaints were with the over casualisation of the crpg genre not exactly a ringing endorsement of action gaming. With kind regards Kalfear, you just puzzled me mightily

[KariTR]

I don't really understand your objection to labelling NPCs, especially when the descriptors used are a substitute for what we would glean in the real world where we have full use of all our senses. As for plot-helpers, there are options in the controls to minimise them or turn them off altogether - since when has choice been a bad thing?

I personally feel the balance of non-interactive NPCs is OK. The towns certainly never struck me as empty and some civic areas are actually quite busy - Lothering and The Proving Grounds come to mind.

As for worrying about the intended audience, as someone said, if you enjoyed the game play on, if not, don't. But if you must label games and gamers, by definition all single-player games are "casual."

[Blakes 7]

Fair point about the casual KariTR, WOW is certainly a hardcore game in its way. In terms of crpgs however some casual elements (ie not usual to the genre) can be considered off-putting and these things are on by default.



Personally I find the label of 'helpful gossip' a little too revealing, since when does anyone need help with their senses?



If you want to know IMO, find out and explore - that is the crpg tradition. Having colour labels announcing an important person, tends to destroy the experience for me of finding out through experience (you know in an interactive medium thats kind of the point.)



Like some monsters were tough and some weak and now it doesn't matter due to level scaling so things get boring fast. So yes I agree with the call for choices, you obviously have your preferences - where is the toggle for mine?



Oh thats right its a fundamental design choice that can't be toggled - see we can't all be happy can we?

[wwwwowwww]

Don't you have the option to turn off that stuff though? I thought you did, I could be wrong

[Blakes 7]

You can turn off the floaty arrows and highlighted loot, but by the time I found that out I was quite the way through the game. As for the rest, its kind of a fundamental design decision so not likely are there toggles for that aye

[wwwwowwww]

I so need to hit the lottery so I can make my own game, lol



I guess some is better than none though, kind of a happy median.

[Archonsg]

Your defination of "hard core" is still a little vague.
Which games did you consider "hard core?" SSI's Eye of the Beholder? Gold Box editions, Pool of Radiance? The Bard's Tale where you need to drink every once in a while or your throat would be too dry to sing?

Or older CRPGs that *really* had some in my opinion true hard core features such as armor and weapons that had "lifespans" that would eventually break after extended use, sudden, immediate and non recoverable death, save game mechanisms that only allow you to save games at a tavern and only if you have the money (which was extremely hard to get) and only one tavern at the begining of each "town" area that can sometimes be worth 2-4 hours" of playtime to get to can be very frustrating if you die and die often you will.
Traveling from point A to Point B meant you litterally had to travel, via horse boat or with your two feet.
I am glad RPGs have turned away from the "real hard core" game style that some of us veterans were used to, back in the day. Played those games, been there done that and I rather not do it again.

You'll need to define what you meant by "role playing mechanics". I am not sure what you mean by that.


ps: I wonder how many here on this forum remember when we used to have to use graph paper to map our travels because there was no "auto maping" feature.

Modifié par Archonsg, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:48 .

[ComTrav]

I feel like many of the suggestions you're making seem to be just in the vein of making the game more opaque and less accessible. I love me a good, in-depth, complex game, but making the game harder to understand isn't a good thing. (Go play Supreme Ruler 2020 for a "hardcore" strategy game.)



DAO (and WoW, for that matter) are good games because they blend accessibility with depth.



I've heard your point about level scaling making the game difficulty constant throughout before, and I can't say I agree. Leaving aside boss encounters, the 3-blood mage room in the blood mage hideout in Denerim, the entrance to Ft. Dakon, any pull with 2 Hurlock Emissaries, and that first fight in the Frostback Mountains are way, way tougher then, say, any fight in Brecilian Woods before the Ruins.



And if you're unhappy with what you think of as design concessions to the mainstream, bear in mind that a highly successful RPG (like DAO) opens the doors for lots more RPGs, some of which may be more to your taste. I grew up in a time when "everyone knew" there was no market in the United States for RPGs (you and me, Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior!)



Also: isn't a game that takes 50-75 hours to finish a LITTLE bit on the 'hardcore' side? (Yes, I know there's crazy people who skip all the voice acting and sidequests and finish it in like ~20 hours, but that's like ordering a delicious gourmet meal, using a blender to turn it into a shake, and chugging it.)