79 réponses à ce sujet

[SeanMurphy2]

Blakes 7 wrote...

I would seriously like to know; And sorry but this is a bit of a whine

This game seems aimed at a mainstream and hardcore audience; (and reveals itself through the game design choices beyond the obvious control issue differences/preferences)


People would complain if modern warfare 2 suddenly wanted spiky haired emo kids with giant swords tacked onto it so why does a crpg need casual mainstream elements. (deserted and empty feeling cities, npcs called "gossips", no descriptors for abilities, mmo like messageboard quests, restricted pathing that leads you around rather than letting you explore, floaty arrows for quest people, and many more...)

I don't think those things you mention are deliberately aimed at different groups. I think it is just an issue of resources.

-Bioware games don't usually have huge numbers of people in each city location.

- I agree Denerim was a bit small for a major city. I think it is question of resources. I don't think anyone would object to them adding more content. (I suspect Denerim was only intended to be accessible after the Landsmeet is called)

- Gossip is an easy implementable way to give you a sense of events happening in Ferelden

- I think someone said no numerical formula for abilities was due to translation since formulas were changed late in development. You can download a mod that gives you visible formula in the descriptions.

- I think mmo messageboard quests were just a quick way to add extra quest content near the end of development

- I am not sure what you mean by restricted pathing. Bioware games don't really have an open world structure.

- Floaty arrows can be turned off in the options. 

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:53 .

[SusanStoHelit]

ComTrav wrote...

Also: isn't a game that takes 50-75 hours to finish a LITTLE bit on the 'hardcore' side? (Yes, I know there's crazy people who skip all the voice acting and sidequests and finish it in like ~20 hours, but that's like ordering a delicious gourmet meal, using a blender to turn it into a shake, and chugging it.)

Yes!

[Blakes 7]

so bioware games traditionally don't have many city dwellers, maybe they have become a little introspective in their design then? I mean other rpg developers have done it no sweat



so you really enjoyed the extra content messageboard quests? Seriously, I mean for me just mindless combat



Restricted pathing as in the brecilian forest where you cannot go to certain areas without going through certain choke points.



Yes and gossip is fun when you discover it not when its pointed out to you in bright flashing neon, whatever happened to getting someone drunk and discovering gossip or some other roleplay mechanic...blah blah blah insufficient resources blah blah blah is the reason we are given but come on!



Mods are generally great and all but easily broken by the latest patches, I would like something a little more permanent improvement to lack of detail

[ComTrav]

Would it REALLY have improved your game experience all that much to have 50-75 NPCs that don't really do anything hang around, say, Orzammer?



(Assume, for the sake of argument, that this could be done without graphical impediments.)



Ok, I'm being a little facetious there, but I feel like what you're saying is that there's not enough 'discovery' or 'hidden-ness' to the game, but I think there's plenty. After I thought I had 'found it all', I started running around holding down tab. (Hello, Keys to the City!)

[Blakes 7]

What a good idea, 50 to 70 people in the city might actually make it seem as such as opposed to a small village; other companies have innovated on these points you know - for instance dressing commoners as such but having the behaviour stand out so you know to investigate the guy; I could imagine my thief hiding in a crowd, not so much in plain sight

I'm assuming by your tab comment that you went around pick pocketing or something?

You know what would of been good and an evolution of past bioware stuff;

The closest thing to mind is commando's, a squad based game where each commando had unique talents and engaging in combat was something you wanted to avoid, they each had unique talents to either distract, disguise, hide, remove obstacles etc - now imagine a swords and sorcery version of that

oh well dreams are free

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 09:37 .

[wwwwowwww]

Tab just highlights what you can look at or loot, a lot of things you will go right past and never notice without holding down the tab key

[Archonsg]

I think I see what you trying to say. Some of what you are describing are game mechanics like that from "The Witcher", for example one quest needed you to get the quest giver drunk but the only way to do so is if you drink along with him. It was a hoot when you stuble out of his house only to be attacked and you're seeing double, triple with the ground heaving and rolling. (helps if you invested in alchemy skills and have the hangover cure / intoxication antidote)

Did you mean stuff like that?

Modifié par Archonsg, 12 janvier 2010 - 09:39 .

[Blakes 7]

Yes that is what I am thinking of Archonsg, just kind of hard to describe you know. Is it possible you think that bioware now focuses on their story to such a degree that engaging in other types of roleplaying gets crammed out?

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 09:44 .

[Archonsg]

The thing is, not everyone think or feel the same when they think what makes a good or great CRPG. Things like a great story, really good characters and interactions between these characters have always been Bioware’s strength. While I want more, I do unstand and actually prefer Bioware to put story / banter / pc to companion to npc dialouge at the top of their to do list.

Though, I would have been ecstatic if they had actually had “RP” easter eggs in-game mechanics such as giving Oghren booze while in battle would give him a temporary boost and possibly start him going off on a drunken rant / rage or ...do it enough and he just passes out right in the middle of battle.

The only peeve that I have in regards to the origins RP wise is that your race / class isn’t referred to in game enough as it should. For example, if you played the mage origins, and unlocked the Arcane Warrior subclass, you should get really weird looks or comments when you return to the circle or when people realize that you are a mage.
I mean, the templars should be freaking out when they find out that you are not only so much more powerful now, but you are now able to wear massive plate armor and handling melee weapons with ease.

The only “origins” that came close to this feeling of “yes...my origins made a difference” is the dwarven noble origins. No wonder its one of top favourite “must play as” origins choice.

Modifié par Archonsg, 12 janvier 2010 - 10:12 .

[SusanStoHelit]

The Witcher does have a lot of those things, and a lot of things are 'obscure', requiring lots of exploration and thought to figure out. You can't just 'go here' and 'talk to so and so'. And the combat was great, you actually have to string a sequence of moves together correctly for them to work - and change styles for different opponents. But it lacks a lot of other qualities too - banter, relationships, duration, replayability, customisation of your character (as examples).



Would it be nice for one game to provide all that we'd like? Yes.

Is it possible? No.



And if we have to pick and choose, we'll all disagree on what to keep and what to lose.

[Archonsg]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

The Witcher does have a lot of those things, and a lot of things are 'obscure', requiring lots of exploration and thought to figure out. You can't just 'go here' and 'talk to so and so'. And the combat was great, you actually have to string a sequence of moves together correctly for them to work - and change styles for different opponents. But it lacks a lot of other qualities too - banter, relationships, duration, replayability, customisation of your character (as examples).

Would it be nice for one game to provide all that we'd like? Yes.
Is it possible? No.

And if we have to pick and choose, we'll all disagree on what to keep and what to lose.

Yes if EA would give Bioware more $$ and time I bet.

[Blakes 7]

For me, I don't relate so much to my characters through chats but by role playing actions; chats just accentuate those actions if the rpg is well put together; like when minsc bursts out of his cage because he thinks your bating him.



Or when you realise in the witcher *please look away if you haven't finished witcher*



that after your chat with your love interest you now must look after some kid with ability and play with him; those chats mean something and are reflected in actions you can take also

[Cybercat999]

So what is your definition of casual and hardcore player?

[SusanStoHelit]

That's why I said we won't all agree.

I loved The Witcher - but after finishing it 3 times, I didn't want to play again. And it didn't take that long to get through. But I also liked Oblivion - heavily modded - because I like an open world. I liked Fallout 3 which has some of the qualities you're after - no level scaling for a start (if you meet one of those mutated killer bugs (Deathclaws?) at a low level, you're dead meat, plain and simple). And Jade Empire. And KotOR. And so on, each had something to recommend it.

But none of them have everything I liked. And even if they did, it wouldn't be everything YOU liked. Or everything Archonsg liked. Because we don't all like the same things.

Edit: And some of the features you've desribed as casual - I like and fit me to a T. But so do some of the hardcore ones.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 12 janvier 2010 - 10:43 .

[Archonsg]

I agree that we won't all agree so that makes us all disagreeably agreeable right?

And the gods forbid if someone wants JRPG elements in. Well some JRPG elements aren’t too bad, such as narration and somewhat gratuitous lengthy cut scenes but I’d no-no the moment someone wants emo preteen male protagonist with an attitude and bad hair cut with equally emo teen, or older female love interest with female figure enhancements that defy gravity or nature. (Well I’d ogle a bit first then say no, of course)

[MatronAdena]

Kalfear wrote...

I think Dragon Age Origins is targeted to Adult RPG fantasy fans mostly. Those folks that would be just as at home reading, say "Wheel of Time" or "Sword of Truth" fantasy series.

My top 10 list
1) Mass Effect
2) DA:O
3)KotOR2
4)KotOR
5)Jade Empire
6-10) SSI Gold Box Games

Pretty much as you put it, I play it as Im a long long long time table top RPG'r  " you know, back when our video games consisted of a total of 3 bits at best...you know, pong...

I prefer story driven games, mechanics are easily overlooked if there is a good story,  and my top 5 reflects that;

1) Mass Effect
2) DA:O
3) KoTOR
4) Jade Empire
5) KoTOR2

After that it breaks up alot...but Much of that is filled up with classic Lucas Arts point and clicks like full throttle, monkey island series,  day of the tentical , indiana jones and the fate of atlantis, ETC ETC then you start mixing in the other genre's

[Blakes 7]

I've finished dragon age once but couldn't put myself through a second playthrough as I got bored. Still better then most these days, most I don't end up finishing so I'll give dragon age that.



Hope then that an rpg explosion is imminent and that there will be a variety of interesting rpgs to play because at the moment.



You have dragon age as a crpg then the wilderness, and drakensang while good didn't really do it for me.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Blakes 7 wrote...

good story = win BUT illusion of choice = lose

Illusion of Choice? Care to elaborate, I thought their was plenty choice for various characters.

Some of your other comments are really nitpicking too.

You basically look like you wanted the game to be purely for hardcore RPGers who want virtually zero GUI or assistance but with screens with absolute every stat regarding abilities/spells so you can super micro-manage/powergame your characters, yet you fail to understand that developers sometimes like to allow 'newbies' into the RPG scene.

Also Bioware has ALWAYS been about story of an RPG not the stats. If you don't like that, then obviously this game really isn't for you.

[Archonsg]

What about the Ultima series, well up to Ultima 7.1 and 2 anyways, The Black Gate + Serpernt Isles, after that, it all went downhill. That series had some of the best role playing mechanics in any RPG released such as the ability and consequence of being anti-social. For example, you could break into people’s houses and steal / murder its residents but you will sooner or later get caught and not be welcomed into town.



In relation to Dragon Age, I wonder why they haven’t implemented something like that, after all this is supposed to be a “dark RPG” right? Have as Blake 7 suggest and have *more* people wander around the back alleys and city areas and allow us to mug them if we so wish. I know at the moment we can only pick-pocket them and if you get caught enough times you’d get ambushed by the city watch which at first I thought was great, but after two attempts they gave up and nothing else happens. No “wanted” poster of you being posted in game, people still treat you neutrally and even Sergeant Kylon (sp?) thinks the world of you if you have helped him before.

Well, to be fair at Lothering if you get caught enough some quest givers won’t talk to you because you are a “trouble maker” and that was again great, but just didn’t carry onwards into the game.



I guess what I would really like to see with future Bioware games is to have the game take note of what you have done in game and have a “persistent” record of such that people will remember you and react to you accordingly.

[Xandurpein]

The game took 5 years to create. How many years would like to have it delayed so you could implement those things you want, or if you prefer it another way - what would like to have removed to make room for the things you crave.



There is simply no way you can have a computer game as responsive to the players creative solutions to problems as a Living Game Master. It's just not doable. You have to prepare certain path's and hope you can steer the player in a way that doesn't feel too forced.



Now Mass Effect was a game where "Illusion of Choice" sometimes did bother me, as I could choose different responses and find that Shepard would sometimes say the same line, regardless of what I told him to say, but that wasn't an issue in Dragon Age.

[Blakes 7]

very true archonsg very true there should be a record - and im not for hardcore per se just mechanics that allow you to roleplay. Guess ill avoid analogies from now on

actualy xanderphein that was an issue in some places like not being able to convince bann teagan to stay rather than go to the castle - despite indications- you were railroaded

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 11:33 .

[Xandurpein]

Archonsg wrote...

What about the Ultima series, well up to Ultima 7.1 and 2 anyways, The Black Gate + Serpernt Isles, after that, it all went downhill. That series had some of the best role playing mechanics in any RPG released such as the ability and consequence of being anti-social. For example, you could break into people’s houses and steal / murder its residents but you will sooner or later get caught and not be welcomed into town.

In relation to Dragon Age, I wonder why they haven’t implemented something like that, after all this is supposed to be a “dark RPG” right? Have as Blake 7 suggest and have *more* people wander around the back alleys and city areas and allow us to mug them if we so wish. I know at the moment we can only pick-pocket them and if you get caught enough times you’d get ambushed by the city watch which at first I thought was great, but after two attempts they gave up and nothing else happens. No “wanted” poster of you being posted in game, people still treat you neutrally and even Sergeant Kylon (sp?) thinks the world of you if you have helped him before.
Well, to be fair at Lothering if you get caught enough some quest givers won’t talk to you because you are a “trouble maker” and that was again great, but just didn’t carry onwards into the game.

I guess what I would really like to see with future Bioware games is to have the game take note of what you have done in game and have a “persistent” record of such that people will remember you and react to you accordingly.

The big problem with having the game allow you to act out any anti-social impulse you might get, is that it will break the game and make it unwinnable. If you for example allow players to do things that sets them on a path to become outlaws, then the plot breaks down and you can't win the Landsmeet or gain any allies. I suppose you could have fun robbing people in the back-allies of Denerim for a few days until the Darkspawn horde obliterated Ferelden, but that is a different game. Nor am I willing to wait two more years for DA:O and pay more for all the voice acting needed to pull it off.

[Xandurpein]

Blakes 7 wrote...

very true archonsg very true there should be a record - and im not for hardcore per se just mechanics that allow you to roleplay. Guess ill avoid analogies from now on

actualy xanderphein that was an issue in some places like not being able to convince bann teagan to stay rather than go to the castle - despite indications- you were railroaded

You have the option to TRY and convince him to stay. That means you can roleplay it. Roleplaying doesn't mean that you always succede, doesn't it?

Modifié par Xandurpein, 12 janvier 2010 - 11:39 .

[Blakes 7]

Why must everything doable be rendered cinematically? It is a game after all. Gathering rumours doesn't have to mean extensive cutscenes etc but could be rendered quite simply if primitively. But it would be there.

Thats true Xanderphein, roleplaying doesn't mean you will always convince a character but I was playing a persuasive sort; even kotor 2 had limits on how much you could convince so I'll give you that

I'm wondering now if extensive portions of the dragon age vision were chiselled away which would explain the lothering reputation then not carrying forward

Modifié par Blakes 7, 12 janvier 2010 - 11:46 .

[ejoslin]

Archonsg wrote...


ps: I wonder how many here on this forum remember when we used to have to use graph paper to map our travels because there was no "auto maping" feature.

I certainly do.  What a pain that was!