945 réponses à ce sujet

[Abriael_CG]

jelf rs wrote...

Just look at The Witcher, after releasing The Witcher CD Projekt used almost a whole year to improve the game with the Enhanced Edition and two complete new adventures with full voice-over.
All for free.

The difference is that the witcher is a slightly above average game that desperately needed that improvement to stand  out. DA:O  is the best western RPG of the last few years, to witch The Witcher doesn't hold a candle.

What Bioware is doing now is to cut off some of the contents that should come with the original release and release them as DLCs to get more money.

Is that so? I'd love to see what are you basing this reasoning on. Warden's keep isn't part of the original story, returning to ostergar isn't something that  a warden would feel compelled to do, with a blight full in action, so is going to a remote village to release a golem. They're ADDITIONAL content, there's absolutely nothing in them signals that they should have been part of the original game.
The only thing that makes you think so is your misguided sense of entitlement. I'm sorry, but software houses don't pay for development and distribution with your sense of entitlement.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 13 janvier 2010 - 12:26 .

[jelf rs]

Abriael_CG wrote...
The difference is that the witcher is a slightly above average game that desperately needed that improvement to stand  out. DA:O  is the best western RPG of the last few years, to witch The Witcher doesn't hold a candle.

Actually from readers review The Witcher does not have a lower score than DAO. DAO just has more capital to have more advertisments.

Abriael_CG wrote...
Is that so? I'd love to see what are you basing this reasoning on. Warden's keep isn't part of the original story, returning to ostergar isn't something that  a warden would feel compelled to do, with a blight full in action, so is going to a remote village to release a golem. They're ADDITIONAL content, there's absolutely nothing in them signals that they should have been part of the original game.

Just as i said before, maybe all the side quests can be released as DLCs as well?
With a blight full in action, why would a warden help the Mage Collective? Why would a warden help the guards of Denerim to deal with the problems of petty thieves?
Maybe you could even question why would the wardens venture into a forest and try to find some Dalish Elves whom may be long gone already.
So they can even release a Dalish Elf DLC and get a whole new series of quests in Brecilian Forest and an extra army to help you during the final battle with the darkspawn.

[Abriael_CG]

jelf rs wrote...

Actually from readers review The Witcher does not have a lower score than DAO. DAO just has more capital to have more advertisments.

LOL. Readers review, please...
Sure, Dragon Age has an higher budget, much higher actually. What makes you think that such an higher budget has been spent only on advertisement? 
You know, higher budget normally means more quality as well, because more resources can be spent on actually developing the game, not only on marketing. That's one of the differences between an AAA game (like DA:O) and one that's pretty good, but that's definitely not a triple A (like the witcher).

And you know, an higher budget means higher expenses, Bioware is a business. They don't spend more on their games for charity. The budget invested needs to come back.

Just as i said before, maybe all the side quests can be released as DLCs as well?
With a blight full in action, why would a warden help the Mage Collective?

Let us see... maybe because that'll give him an army of mages to use against the blight itself? What an outrageous notion....

Why would a warden help the guards of Denerim to deal with the problems of petty thieves?
Maybe you could even question why would the wardens venture into a forest and try to find some Dalish Elves whom may be long gone already.
So they can even release a Dalish Elf DLC and get a whole new series of quests in Brecilian Forest and an extra army to help you during the final battle with the darkspawn.

You're grasping at straws, I'm afraid. The dailish elf quest is evidently part of the main plot that develops from the beginning, while the DLC simply aren't. The DLC are simply a further expansion to be played on the side of the main plot for the ones that want more. They make the warden travel miles to go out of his way (so much that Sten complains) and gain very marginal (but fun for the player) advantages.

It's not doctor orders to get the warden armor or the king's armor. Shale isn't covered by social healtcare. If you con't like to pay the equivalent of a few cups of coffee to have them, great. Simply don't. The game is 100% complete and playable without them.
But you're not entitled to them. Sorry to have to break this to you.
Want a service? pay for it. That's how the modern civilized society works.

[jelf rs]

Abriael_CG wrote...
The dailish elf quest is evidently part of the main plot that develops from the beginning, while the DLC simply aren't. The DLC are simply a further expansion to be played on the side of the main plot for the ones that want more. They make the warden travel miles to go out of his way (so much that Sten complains) and gain very marginal (but fun for the player) advantages.

 I'm wondering how can you know that those DLCs aren't part of the ideas from the beginning. Maybe if they cut out some contents like the dalish elf quests and release it as DLCs later they can still fool people like you into believing that the dalish elf quests aren't part of the main plot that develops from the beginning.
I can even come up with the story now.
When the warden was travelling, someone came to the warden's camp (just like the Warden's Keep DLC) and said that he found an old piece of treaty about the dalish elves. Which was separated from the others when the outpost was lost. The man then gave the treaty to the warden and hope the warden can make good use of it. And so the warden can decide now whether to go to Brecilian Forest and find extra army to help him.
If they releasing a DLC like this people like you may really believe that the dalish elf quest is some extra content which won't affect the main plot.

If I were the developer I would really like to have more customers ( or maybe fanboys?) like you who think they aren't entitled to anything.
The developers will just make the gameplay hour shorter and shorter and release some DLCs to give "extra" content if there are more people like you.
Maybe next time they will even make you pay for the patches. Of course they won't call it a patch, it will just be a DLC which improves your gameplay experience. And people like you will still be paying happily and saying "Oh I'm not entitled to such things. I must pay to get the serivce (well, they do need to work to prepare a patch don't they)."

Modifié par jelf rs, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:58 .

[generalkorrd]

jelf rs wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...
The dailish elf quest is evidently part of the main plot that develops from the beginning, while the DLC simply aren't. The DLC are simply a further expansion to be played on the side of the main plot for the ones that want more. They make the warden travel miles to go out of his way (so much that Sten complains) and gain very marginal (but fun for the player) advantages.

 I'm wondering how can you know that those DLCs aren't part of the ideas from the beginning. Maybe if they cut out some contents like the dalish elf quests and release it as DLCs later they can still fool people like you into believing that the dalish elf quests aren't part of the main plot that develops from the beginning.
I can even come up with the story now.
When the warden was travelling, someone came to the warden's camp (just like the Warden's Keep DLC) and said that he found an old piece of treaty about the dalish elves. Which was separated from the others when the outpost was lost. The man then gave the treaty to the warden and hope the warden can make good use of it. And so the warden can decide now whether to go to Brecilian Forest and find extra army to help him.
If they releasing a DLC like this people like you may really believe that the dalish elf quest is some extra content which won't affect the main plot.

If I were the developer I would really like to have more customers ( or maybe fanboys?) like you who think they aren't entitled to anything.
The developers will just make the gameplay hour shorter and shorter and release some DLCs to give "extra" content if there are more people like you.
Maybe next time they will even make you pay for the patches. Of course they won't call it a patch, it will just be a DLC which improves your gameplay experience. And people like you will still be paying happily and saying "Oh I'm not entitled to such things. I must pay to get the serivce (well, they do need to work to prepare a patch don't they)."

What makes you think you are entitled? That is what we all want to know, who are you to think that Bioware or anybody owes you anything?

[Abriael_CG]

jelf rs wrote...
 I'm wondering how can you know that those DLCs aren't part of the ideas from the beginning. Maybe if they cut out some contents like the dalish elf quests and release it as DLCs later they can still fool people like you into believing that the dalish elf quests aren't part of the main plot that develops from the beginning.

History isn't done with Maybe's.  Show us some more grasping at straws please

Funny how you complain about games getting "shorter and shorter", when we're talking about a game that's definitely on the long side.

You're entitled to NOTHING. You decide if something is worth it's price with your purchase. If you think the purchase isn't worth it's price, simply don't buy.
Purchasing the original game entitles you to play the original game (which happens to be one ofn the biggest chunks of gameplay released in the last few years), nothing more, nothing less.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 13 janvier 2010 - 02:23 .

[ArathWoeeye]

Funny how people whine and conspire about DLC content fitting into games instead of praising developers for making good enough content that it fits the game.

[SheffSteel]

It seems to me that "This DLC was cut from the game to boost revenue" is at about the same level on the Hawking-Trailertrash Reasoning Scale as "Awakening is a rip off because it is only 15 hours long". And it's not towards the top of that scale, either. Hint: seek evidence for your hypothesis.

[Zethell]

O M G.

I can not believe you guys are still saying that 5€ is "extremly" overpriced..



Just get a job and stop complaining.

If you think 5 € is too much for an expansion like Wardens, then just dont get it.

[Lazylog]

I understand a business is there to make money first and formost. So why shouldn't they be payed for their extra work? However you should understand that these DLCs came out more less on the same time as the game. Imagine Oblivion (worst RPG ever) coming out with just the main quest + Guilds and then selling off all the other quests as DLCs? At least Bethesda had the descency to make their DLCs about as bad if not worse than the TES4 game so no one would miss them. Back to DA:O, the DLCs -I'm talking of the quest ones, the others well... are just bonuses where instead of buying the armor/ring/etc with ingame money you buy it with your own- the DLCs feel like they are part of the game as a whole a not as something awkwardly added on. Like bits of the puzzle that where taken out. Nevertheless having said that money won't stop me from getting them as at least you get your moneys worth and not something half finished!

EDIT:mistakes

Modifié par Lazylog, 13 janvier 2010 - 02:53 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I think that creating software, or in this case a DLC, is a profession. If you feel that the products they create are worth the money then buy it. Paying for it is much like paying for hardware. Nobody argues that hardware should be free. The essiential difference between the two is that one requires raw materials and the other does not. All else remains the same. With both types there is labor involved by professionals cashing in on their education and experience, there is research, development, internationalization, localization, marketing, support, distribution, etc., to be done.

Of course sometimes a company can decide to give away a DLC or an expansion. That happened with several games. Sometimes to make up for many patches or just to celebrate the commercial success. Still, nothing is for free and the people who created it are on a payroll and the work mentioned before still has to be done. So, in the end you pay for it. Whether you like it or not.

And there are also companies that spoil you and have extreme good support and nearly if not all additional content is free. A good example is X3: Terran Conflict. Whether you like that game or not, it has regular patches and new missions for free. It's interesting to note that a lot of their hired devs are (ex-)modders from the community. They go as far as creating a special edition with all the best mods and removing the copyright protection after a year or so. Such companies are rare. Obviously BioWare doesn't go that far, but that doesn't mean they have no right to charge for the content.

[Lazylog]

Yeah but I think people feel as it came out on the same as the game they simply were taken out for an extra quid. If told you that their is actually a 5th treaty were you need to do a mission for the gnomes of Ferelden you'd probably buy it although you would feel in some way cheated; not so much cheated out your own money as cheated because of the principle of it all. Do you know what I mean?

[ArathWoeeye]

Hard to say it's cheating. They could say "we would add gnomes but the price would go up 5 bucks, so we decided to seperate it so that only gnomelovers would get it". This is an argument with no basis and goes to no end.

Some people may not mean it the bad way but for others it's just a conspiracy theory and in that way, it looks ridicilous.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Lazylog wrote...

Yeah but I think people feel as it came out on the same as the game they simply were taken out for an extra quid. If told you that their is actually a 5th treaty were you need to do a mission for the gnomes of Ferelden you'd probably buy it although you would feel in some way cheated; not so much cheated out your own money as cheated because of the principle of it all. Do you know what I mean?

Yes and no.

You could argue that if the content was created at the same time that it looks like there was content removed from the regular version and that by buying the special edition you were charged for content that should be there in the first place. As far as I remember Mr Priestly told us that the additional content (and the bonus stuff) really requires extra manpower and is not cut from the game. Although I am often skeptical, in this case I think I believe him. Of course there is an opportunity to share some development resources. I can imagine that it is cheaper to record the voice acting for the extra content while recording for the main game. It is probably easier to schedule as well as they do have different agendas when hired later on. Things like that. So, it is not a bad idea to create some of the stuff during the initial development phase.

[jelf rs]

generalkorrd wrote...

jelf rs wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...
The dailish elf quest is evidently part of the main plot that develops from the beginning, while the DLC simply aren't. The DLC are simply a further expansion to be played on the side of the main plot for the ones that want more. They make the warden travel miles to go out of his way (so much that Sten complains) and gain very marginal (but fun for the player) advantages.

 I'm wondering how can you know that those DLCs aren't part of the ideas from the beginning. Maybe if they cut out some contents like the dalish elf quests and release it as DLCs later they can still fool people like you into believing that the dalish elf quests aren't part of the main plot that develops from the beginning.
I can even come up with the story now.
When the warden was travelling, someone came to the warden's camp (just like the Warden's Keep DLC) and said that he found an old piece of treaty about the dalish elves. Which was separated from the others when the outpost was lost. The man then gave the treaty to the warden and hope the warden can make good use of it. And so the warden can decide now whether to go to Brecilian Forest and find extra army to help him.
If they releasing a DLC like this people like you may really believe that the dalish elf quest is some extra content which won't affect the main plot.

If I were the developer I would really like to have more customers ( or maybe fanboys?) like you who think they aren't entitled to anything.
The developers will just make the gameplay hour shorter and shorter and release some DLCs to give "extra" content if there are more people like you.
Maybe next time they will even make you pay for the patches. Of course they won't call it a patch, it will just be a DLC which improves your gameplay experience. And people like you will still be paying happily and saying "Oh I'm not entitled to such things. I must pay to get the serivce (well, they do need to work to prepare a patch don't they)."

What makes you think you are entitled? That is what we all want to know, who are you to think that Bioware or anybody owes you anything?

OMG So you DO think that we should pay for the patches? Next time it will be like this. "Improve Your Game. Add Bioware Points for PC Dowloadable Content(actually thats a patch like 1.02a)"

I didn't say I am entitled to anything. I'm just expressing my discontent on the manner of Bioware.
So I'm wrong to express my opinions or should I just praise how good Bioware is?
Oh Bioware you are so wonderful to deliver us such a fascinating game!
Well maybe this is what all you fanboys want to hear. But is this meaningful?

[Lazylog]

Oh well if Mr Priestly said so (and it is the truth).Then I can well understand if they need to get the voice actors all back together again etc.. nothing is free as well as on our end as on theirs. Anyway I don't care or mind I've got them now so that's that.



"we would add gnomes but the price would go up 5 bucks, so we decided to seperate it so that only gnomelovers would get it"

Yeah I'm sure that you could cut the game in money/quests. Damn if only they hadn't added that such and such quest I don't like I could have saved 3 bucks! ArathWoeeye you totally pwnd me there

[AngryFrozenWater]

To jelf rs: If they are going to charge for each patch released then they can kiss my shiny behind. On the other hand nothing is for free. That's true for patches as well. And of course the customer pays for it in the end one way or another. BioWare tends to keep the patches to a minimum. ME1 required some patches, but the last patch was released way too late and didn't fix much what people wanted. I hope DA:O won't follow the same route. There is a lot of broken stuff in the game.

[Dragon Age1103]

I agree there is much needed to be patched in DA:O but I honestly doubt we'll see a large patch that addresses many issues any time soon. Considering they are working on DLC, ME2's launch, Awakening & who knows what other projects. I realize Bioware is a large company but that is a lot for anyone's plate. lol. I hope I am wrong & we see a patch soon or with Awakening for the AI glitches, the run glitch i often get, & to help all the poor 360 guys with corrupted saves.

[MerinTB]

Let's, for one second, assume that Bioware had planned, from the beginning, to have this grand big story for Dragon Age: Origins.

Let's assume that.

Next let's further assume that they took that story and said "how much can we develop in one game as far as areas, quests, etc.?" and they decided for numerous reasons, by release, that Warden's Keep and Stone Prisoner were things that they had planned from the start but cut from doing at certain points to get the game out at a release date. (Part of this is pretty much known, with Shale and certain issues with the character's model and such.) But with at least planning (and in Shale's case) some development done, they decided to release said content as finish products LATER for an additional fee.
Like, you know, Icewind Dale had the door in the town READY for an expansion (Heart of Winter) and the just added an NPC to an already existing inn for another small expansion (Trials of the Luremaster - which, if released five or so years later would probably have been a pay-to-play DLC but the marketing model didn't exist yet.)
So what? Did that actually make Dragon Age: Origins, the main game as released, unfinished? Was it too short, did it's story have big gaps (*cougcoughKOTOR2coughcough*) and feel incomplete as a result?

Let's further assume (again, assuming here without proof) that from early in development the designers had the idea to have the characters return to Ostagar. And let's assume, for whatever reason, that they decided to not work on it for the full game and instead put it off to be DLC for later.

SO. WHAT.

Even giving all those assumptions, what is wrong with the game makers planning from the get-go to continue to make content and release it after the main game was released and having that content planned from the beginning or early in development? Is it wrong for them to plan ahead? To have more ideas than could fit in an initial release of a game that took years to make? To have ideas that wove into the main story of the game but saved them for later?

How is that wrong, or bad? Because they didn't give you every single idea they had all in one package for one price?

How is this any different from novelists who plan series but only give you parts in each book? Was J.K. Rowling doing something wrong to break her story down into 7 books?
How about tv series? Was JMS wrong for making Babylon 5 take 5 seasons and not only 1 VERY LONG episode to tell his story?

Would you prefer that Bioware did games like movie studios and most tv studios do their stuff? Sequels and seasons that don't seem connected, contradict one another, are of wildly varying degrees of quality?

Are you arguing that Bioware has to NOT plan any future content, not even ideas, until the main game is in stores on sale AND EVEN THEN those ideas cannot tie back into the original story?

Even if the WORST CONSPIRACY is true, even if Bioware had this huge completed game and then cut out parts they felt would make good DLC, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!? In and of itself I cannot see what would be wrong with this.
I'd worry more about end results. If they gave you a full-price game, and it turned out to end in the middle of the main story IN THE MIDDLE OF A DUNGEON (i.e. you go to open the next door and a message pops up saying "See you in DLC 1/Expansion 1/the sequel") maybe you could be upset, but if you got hours of great gameplay for your money (and hopefully the advertising and marketing would let you know the story is a To Be Continued) and enjoyed the game would even that be that bad?

I fail to see how even the worst of these conspiracy theories are even worth complaining about.

Modifié par MerinTB, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:41 .

[SheffSteel]

Patches are quite obviously different from new content, and I'm rather disappointed to see that jelf rs apparently hasn't reasoned that out.

Patches are a quality control mechanism, released retrospectively to address deficits in game performance or stability. Once such deficits have been publicly recognised, a developer who does not release a patch is in for a very rough time in terms of PR. Needless to say, there are no corresponding deficits in gameplay that require extra adventures to be released..

[addiction21]

When I order waffles the syrup comes free. So why can I not have free DLC's?

[AngryFrozenWater]

addiction21 wrote...

When I order waffles the syrup comes free. So why can I not have free DLC's?

The syrup doesn't come free. It's part of the price.

[addiction21]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

When I order waffles the syrup comes free. So why can I not have free DLC's?

The syrup doesn't come free. It's part of the price.

So your are saying DLC's are like that cup of OJ? Something I want but do not need to enjoy my waffles?

[jelf rs]

MerinTB wrote...

Let's, for one second, assume that Bioware had planned, from the beginning, to have this grand big story for Dragon Age: Origins.

Let's assume that.

Next let's further assume that they took that story and said "how much can we develop in one game as far as areas, quests, etc.?" and they decided for numerous reasons, by release, that Warden's Keep and Stone Prisoner were things that they had planned from the start but cut from doing at certain points to get the game out at a release date. (Part of this is pretty much known, with Shale and certain issues with the character's model and such.) But with at least planning (and in Shale's case) some development done, they decided to release said content as finish products LATER for an additional fee.
Like, you know, Icewind Dale had the door in the town READY for an expansion (Heart of Winter) and the just added an NPC to an already existing inn for another small expansion (Trials of the Luremaster - which, if released five or so years later would probably have been a pay-to-play DLC but the marketing model didn't exist yet.)
So what? Did that actually make Dragon Age: Origins, the main game as released, unfinished? Was it too short, did it's story have big gaps (*cougcoughKOTOR2coughcough*) and feel incomplete as a result?

Let's further assume (again, assuming here without proof) that from early in development the designers had the idea to have the characters return to Ostagar. And let's assume, for whatever reason, that they decided to not work on it for the full game and instead put it off to be DLC for later.

SO. WHAT.

Even giving all those assumptions, what is wrong with the game makers planning from the get-go to continue to make content and release it after the main game was released and having that content planned from the beginning or early in development? Is it wrong for them to plan ahead? To have more ideas than could fit in an initial release of a game that took years to make? To have ideas that wove into the main story of the game but saved them for later?

How is that wrong, or bad? Because they didn't give you every single idea they had all in one package for one price?

How is this any different from novelists who plan series but only give you parts in each book? Was J.K. Rowling doing something wrong to break her story down into 7 books?
How about tv series? Was JMS wrong for making Babylon 5 take 5 seasons and not only 1 VERY LONG episode to tell his story?

Would you prefer that Bioware did games like movie studios and most tv studios do their stuff? Sequels and seasons that don't seem connected, contradict one another, are of wildly varying degrees of quality?

Are you arguing that Bioware has to NOT plan any future content, not even ideas, until the main game is in stores on sale AND EVEN THEN those ideas cannot tie back into the original story?

Even if the WORST CONSPIRACY is true, even if Bioware had this huge completed game and then cut out parts they felt would make good DLC, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!? In and of itself I cannot see what would be wrong with this.
I'd worry more about end results. If they gave you a full-price game, and it turned out to end in the middle of the main story IN THE MIDDLE OF A DUNGEON (i.e. you go to open the next door and a message pops up saying "See you in DLC 1/Expansion 1/the sequel") maybe you could be upset, but if you got hours of great gameplay for your money (and hopefully the advertising and marketing would let you know the story is a To Be Continued) and enjoyed the game would even that be that bad?

I fail to see how even the worst of these conspiracy theories are even worth complaining about.

And this is the difference between Valve and CD Projekt, and Bioware. The former two provide a better continues support, updates and extra contents for free but they get better goodwill. While Bioware/EA provides these only to earn more money. I won't say Bioware is wrong but in comparison it seems it's less responsible than the others.
(Note to fanboys: I'm not saying Bioware is not responsible but only LESS responsible) Of course Bioware is already very responsible comparing to lots of other developers, but there's always room for improvements no?

[Abriael_CG]

jelf rs wrote...
And this is the difference between Valve and CD Projekt, and Bioware. The former two provide a better continues support, updates and extra contents for free but they get better goodwill. While Bioware/EA provides these only to earn more money. I won't say Bioware is wrong but in comparison it seems it's less responsible than the others.
(Note to fanboys: I'm not saying Bioware is not responsible but only LESS responsible) Of course Bioware is already very responsible comparing to lots of other developers, but there's always room for improvements no?

The real difference is that Valve and CD Projekt provide very average games (with a few above average ones for Valve, but that is outweighted by their lazyness in learning to program on the PS3). Bioware has a track record of masterpieces, and DA:O is no exception.

That aside, Bioware's games always have an extremely high budget, with extensive first tier voice acting and writing that both Valve and CD Projekt can only dream of.
Such things have a cost, and costs have to be offset. It's that simple.