945 réponses à ce sujet

[Frogman1975]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

archonsod wrote...

Personally I judge all DLC releases on my patented Beer-O-Meter. This is roughly, how many pints does it cost and how long does it keep me entertained. Assuming I'm ekeing it out, a pint is about 20 minutes worth of entertainment, and my local charges the princely sum of two quid twenty per pint.
Therefore, for every £2.20 cost of the DLC, if it provides 20 minutes of entertainment it's equal to a pint. As long as the DLC provides equal to or more entertainment than a pint, it's good value.
Bioware are doing incredibly good here. $5 is about £3 or so, so a pint and a half or 30 minutes entertainment. If the DLC provides 1 hour of content for $5 then it's double beer value.
In the event of a tiebreaker the usual deciding factor is to buy both the beer and the DLC, and attempt to use both at the same time to see which one wins. Remarkably, I've found few DLC packs which actually lose out on this tiebreaker rule, that I can remember anyway.

Coffee-in-disguise!  Teasmen, attack!  We'll soon see this comparison off our green and bountiful shores, tally ho!

I suppose I should provide some explanation why I keep doing this.  Essentially, the "a cup of coffee costs x and provides x amount of time of enjoyment" is annoying and is really a bad example that people keep on trying to push on others constantly.  That beer may cost £2.20 but not only are you also paying for the social environment of the pub, but you have to consider that the materials used in the beer has had to be grown, processed and possibly also shipped to get to you in such a form, each step costing money, and the end result is something only one person can use unless they choose to give up some of their pint for someone else to drink.  You are also not drinking constantly (well most of us are not), and the effects of the alcohol persists for longer than the 20 minutes it takes to drink.  You also get a serving wench to serve you who also has to be paid.  Therefore it is not the length but the quality of the experience and the cost to provide said experience that you need to consider.

In short, while it may be worth it according to the method of measurement you use, it is not necessarily worth it according to the measurement of worth other people use, and the constant pushing of this measurement (and example) upon others has really gotten on my ******!    So, in shorter summary, if you really want to annoy me use the coffee example, that is all.

I still think its valid. You aren't just paying for a physical disk or the string of code (the physical cup of coffee) but the time that goes into producing it (the dev's/tester's/moderator's time = the grower's/shipper's/barista's time) and the overall experience of being in the coffee house/pub/immersed in the game)

Plus I just love coffee. There is nothing better than a strong cup of just roasted this morning, ground mere moments ago, fresh out of the french press, "my God thank you Ruta Maya coffeehouse for these wonderful beans you roast" coffee.

So, its as valid as any other comparison for analogies sake which, by their very nature, compare things that are not the same.















:bandit:Coffee

[LDB10671]

addiction21 wrote...

LDB10671 wrote...


$5 for 1 hour of game paly is far to much. that means the DAO would be worth what $250?

Either we got a good deal on the game or Bioware is ****ing us in our ass for this shamefully new content.

It's ok, i do not expect you Bioware Hammer Legion fanboi's to understand. Otherwsise we wouldn't have the term's blind-sided & naive for people such as yourself.

Ya it is such good business sense  to base the price on something as subjective as "time played"

And by that logic I should be paying to post on these forums. (You do know it is not free to run forums and websites that you are freely using right now right?)  Because I have gotten more fun out of here then many many games in the past.

I also guess you would be willing to start paying a fee for multiplayer games like TF2 and the new modern warfare right?

Honestly it is ok that you don not understand.  I know what it means to be a Hammer Legion Fan.

But you, good Madame, may be willing to be blind-sided and thus don't realize you are naive. Some of us are not.

Modifié par LDB10671, 14 janvier 2010 - 11:11 .

[fluffyamoeba]

LDB10671 wrote...

$5 for 1 hour of game paly is far to much. that means the DAO would be worth what $250?

Either we got a good deal on the game or Bioware is ****ing us in our ass for this shamefully new content.

The first one. MW2 is 6 hours long.

[addiction21]

If critical thinking and logical reasoning skills makes me a braindead fanboy so be it.

Got any well reasoned arguements or just insults?

Modifié par addiction21, 14 janvier 2010 - 11:17 .

[Stormstrider32]

David Gaider wrote...


Which "goodwill" do you speak of? Is this the goodwill where sometime in the future when something is delayed or they otherwise have reason to be unhappy they will remember back to the last time the company did something nice for them and be more understanding instead? That goodwill?

I'm aware of no such beast.

How dare you bring human nature into this discussion! I'm not a brat! I'm not! I'm not! I'm not!

[Frogman1975]

addiction21 wrote...

Crusader-Be wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

2nd day in a row I sit down to troll the forums and end up with boffee coming out my nose do to the ridiculousness of some people.
Lets get serious discussion started. I swung my my moms last night because see made some of her famous chili. I am about to make some chili waffles.

make some for me 2  sounds yummy

I cannot make any promises that they will still be around.  I do know the people at the office will hate me today...

sprybry wrote...

my thoughts on dlc:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/588461/1#589912

Me thinks there was not enough flamable material in said thread to keep it going

Of course. I flipped over there and her argument was reasonable, well thought out, and articulate. That's to trolls what silver bullets are to werewolves.

[Parker Kincaid]

I can think of many things in life that should be free. Alas, they are not. Time an effort goes into developing games and the subsequent DLC and/or addons. Said extra work needs to be priced accordingly. If games are open to modding by the community then people are free to mod to their heart's content but there is no reason the developer shouldn't put a price on official DLC content. Charging $5 or $7 is actually a decent price if the game was a good one. A teenager with an allowance and/or job, a college student, a working adult, etc, should be able to handle a "fiver" for additional game content.

Charging for DLC is not a crime nor should a developer be attacked for it. It has been known all along that DLC content would be made and that it would cost a small amount of money. Even the Awakening expansion really isn't that bad. With a little searching it was easy to find it for sale at a cost $10 less ($29)  than everywhere were else ($39) and then with the addition of another $5 off from a coupon code the total price came out to $24.95. Good deal.

I spent about fifty some dollars on the DA:O CE. I grabbed Warden's Keep, as well. I will grab RtO and then I'll grab Awakening, as well. I will most likely buy all the DLC content and expansions if the story of the content interests me. If you take that total sum of money and then compare an equal number of hours spent playing the game compared to the same amount in a movie theatre with ticket prices, in a bar for the same number of hours with friends buying drinks, or out to eat with friends at restaurants and such the final price of DA:O will come out to be the more economically efficient method of the bunch for having a good time.

Would I love it if additional content was all free of charge? Heck, yeah! But I'm a realist. The economy is less than stellar. Many game studios are either being gobbled up by bigger fish or are shutting down. Developers are laying people off. Game development costs money and without returns on the work and investment there will be no new games or content created or released. Everything comes at a price.

My hat is off to BioWare and what they accomplished with DA:O thus far. I'll be honest and state that I had zero intention of getting this game. I simply wasn't interested. I'm generally not interested in fantasy type games or books. A friend of mine kept talking about DA:O leading up to its release and even though I still didn't know if I would enjoy the game he managed to get me interested enough to buy it and find out. In the end, I found that I loved the game. The atmosphere and the story are rich and immersive. DA:O is one of those games that you can't just sit down and play for an hour at a time. It's an easy game to lose track of time with. Sit down to play for 5 minutes and find that 5 or more hours have passed in what seems like the blink of an eye. BioWare truly deserves praise for DA:O. Of course, I also didn't suffer any of the game-stopping problems that many have reported. DA:O is simply stunning on my PC.

In closing, I was aware of this thread since it first started but didn't want to waste my breath on a thread that, IMHO, was trollish in origin. Nonetheless, the thread now stands as 21 pages so I had to post one reply and move on. If people don't feel that they should pay for DLC content then, by all means, they aren't required to. 

Modifié par Parker Kincaid, 14 janvier 2010 - 11:40 .

[Frogman1975]

mcomommy wrote...

Heck if I know. I'll be honest. I haven't spent more than 2 hours on wow since I bought DA:O.

TSO? Aeon? Warhammer? CoH/V?
Just remove WoW and insert any of the above.

Yeah, the first month DA:O came out, I was so focused on my first play through, I never touched WoW.

Still paid them that monthly $15 though.

[5hane]

I'd gladly pay 15 dollars for an expansion with new ROMANCEABLE companions, and perhaps one that changes the orientations of all party members to bi?

[cpmd4]

If you're good at something, never do it for free.

5hane wrote...

I'd gladly pay 15 dollars for an expansion
with new ROMANCEABLE companions, and perhaps one that changes the
orientations of all party members to bi?

Yes! Make everyone bi!

Modifié par cpmd4, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:01 .

[Baalzie]

Hmm... I'm gonna keep only reading the Bioware-posts in threads such as this... =)

Makes for much funnier and less aggravationg reading...

Good posts, intelligent posts, not a single dumb flame or "my view is all that count You're a Fanboy/Troll/idiot if You don't agree to my smallest opinions"-thinking...



I just agree with Señores Gaider, Chung and Woo in this thread!

*Guess I'm a fanboy/troll/idiot to some*

[Bibdy]

If you people want to pay for adventures by the hour, I can build a mod which is nothing but a 5-mile long, mostly empty tunnel filled with darkspawn, that could take you about 8 hours to get to the other end, if I cram enough bad guys in there.



Would you be willing to pay me $5 for that content?

[addiction21]

Baalzie wrote...

Hmm... I'm gonna keep only reading the Bioware-posts in threads such as this... =)
Makes for much funnier and less aggravationg reading...
Good posts, intelligent posts, not a single dumb flame or "my view is all that count You're a Fanboy/Troll/idiot if You don't agree to my smallest opinions"-thinking...

I just agree with Señores Gaider, Chung and Woo in this thread!
*Guess I'm a fanboy/troll/idiot to some*

I feel slighted by this post and will be coming for your waffles.

Bibdy wrote...

If you people want to pay for adventures by the hour, I can build a mod which is nothing but a 5-mile long, mostly empty tunnel filled with darkspawn, that could take you about 8 hours to get to the other end, if I cram enough bad guys in there.

Would you be willing to pay me $5 for that content?

Do you ever get tired of saying that?

Modifié par addiction21, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:12 .

[Bibdy]

Hey, that's only twice now.

[TheMadCat]

Bibdy wrote...

Hey, that's only twice now.

That's twice too many.

[Baalzie]

addiction21 wrote...


I feel slighted by this post and will be coming for your waffles.

I rofled with ma waffles...
Then I ate them!

[Bibdy]

TheMadCat wrote...

That's twice too many.

I'll stop saying it when someone gives me an answer

Is it just TIME consumption you want? Because I can do that for you. Easy. Take me about an hour tonight to copy-paste a bunch of tunnel pieces together and a bunch of monsters in. Ooh I can make it totally awesome by putting a chest at the end with a full set of gear for every character class with like +10 to every stat and 10 billion damage. That would make it value for money, right?

Edit: Ooh, or I could make it a big circular cave, with tons of triggers respawning creatures on the other side, so that the fun literally NEVER ends! Talk about bang for your buck!

Everyone here using 'time to completion' as the only metric of value, is nothing short of mentally retarded.

Modifié par Bibdy, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:21 .

[cpmd4]

Bibdy wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

That's twice too many.

I'll stop saying it when someone gives me an answer

Is it just TIME consumption you want? Because I can do that for you. Easy. Take me about an hour tonight to copy-paste a bunch of tunnel pieces together and a bunch of monsters in. Ooh I can make it totally awesome by putting a chest at the end with a full set of gear for every character class with like +10 to every stat and 10 billion damage. That would make it value for money, right?

Everyone here using 'time to completion' as the only metric of value, is nothing short of mentally retarded.

...

You're mentally retarded!
*hands over $5*

YES! 8 HOURS!

[Peeker2009]

David Gaider wrote...

LenaMarie wrote...
The real definition of troll is posting anything opposite of what the fanboys think.

And apparently the real definition of "fanboy" is anyone daring to be reasonable or *gasp* supportive.

After reading some of the threads in these parts, I think the definition of "customer" needs some explaining to certain folks as well.

Personally speaking, I will never use the terms "troll" or "fanboy" to characterise a person participiating in this forum, as such terms are reductive and dismissive. They attack the man/woman rather than the argument, and are as unhelpful as terms like "pinko" or "fat cat" when discussing politics. Having said that, it's interesting how you associate the terms "reasonable" and "supportive" - I see this as also being reductive in that it implies that those who are critical of a certain business practice are therefore being "unreasonable".

Likewise, those who posted their ironic definitions of "customer", are simply characterising those who disagree with their opinion as unrealistic,  whinging babies. Its a game anyone can play. Eg, Customer: one who can either like it or lump it, or one who will pay anything to feed their addiction. I don't mean these to insult anyone, just demonstrating  how such comments are not useful. Actually it would be interesting to hear any company representitive attempt to define the word "customer" to their own customers (except as part of an advertising campaign). I don't think I have ever seen a business brave enough to try it ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

On a side note, If enough people believe that to be complete, a game need only have a beginning. middle, and end then is it possible that in say 5 years time, side-quests will no longer be included in original boxed games? Will it only be "oldies"  nostalgic for the "good old days" who care? Will they be characterised as living in the past, and dismissed as having a sense of entitlement? I guess nostalgia has nothing to do with being "reasonable".

Therefore, when my Mum complains of skyrocketing bank fees (It used to be enough that banks had your money to play with), or that her favorite cafe now charges for a glass of  water, I should dismiss her concerns as being irrelevent,  tell her that she has a "sense of entitlement". And that rather than tell the particular bank or cafe how she feels about the changes, she should keep silent and simply not deal with those businesses again. She can either buy or not buy, but she has no rights whatsoever to actually make a complaint. Should I try to define the term customer to her?

Anyway, perhaps it isn't appropriate for this debate to take place on the website of a particular company (there's so much emotional investment on both sides), and should be carried out on forum that focuses on current trends in the gaming industry in general. Can anyone recommend such a forum?

[addiction21]

Baalzie wrote...

addiction21 wrote...


I feel slighted by this post and will be coming for your waffles.

I rofled with ma waffles...
Then I ate them!

I thought you were not reading us peons posts? your a phony, a short hairy phony.

[TheMadCat]

Bibdy wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

That's twice too many.

I'll stop saying it when someone gives me an answer

Is it just TIME consumption you want? Because I can do that for you. Easy. Take me about an hour tonight to copy-paste a bunch of tunnel pieces together and a bunch of monsters in. Ooh I can make it totally awesome by putting a chest at the end with a full set of gear for every character class with like +10 to every stat and 10 billion damage. That would make it value for money, right?

Edit: Ooh, or I could make it a big circular cave, with tons of triggers respawning creatures on the other side, so that the fun literally NEVER ends! Talk about bang for your buck!

Everyone here using 'time to completion' as the only metric of value, is nothing short of mentally retarded.

Hehe, I actually agree with you. I just felt like saying that. People are stuck on the notion that length=value and it's moronic. Like you said a mod that has you run around in a circle with repaswning Darkspawn or something for 8 hours doesn't have more value then something an hour long that holds a nice side story, voice acting, whatever other little tidbits are there, in my eyes at least. And no I wasn't talking about RtO there so don't jump on that comment, I've yet to play RtO.

[Magic Zarim]

Frogman1975 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

archonsod wrote...

Personally I judge all DLC releases on my patented Beer-O-Meter. This is roughly, how many pints does it cost and how long does it keep me entertained. Assuming I'm ekeing it out, a pint is about 20 minutes worth of entertainment, and my local charges the princely sum of two quid twenty per pint.
Therefore, for every £2.20 cost of the DLC, if it provides 20 minutes of entertainment it's equal to a pint. As long as the DLC provides equal to or more entertainment than a pint, it's good value.
Bioware are doing incredibly good here. $5 is about £3 or so, so a pint and a half or 30 minutes entertainment. If the DLC provides 1 hour of content for $5 then it's double beer value.
In the event of a tiebreaker the usual deciding factor is to buy both the beer and the DLC, and attempt to use both at the same time to see which one wins. Remarkably, I've found few DLC packs which actually lose out on this tiebreaker rule, that I can remember anyway.

Coffee-in-disguise!  Teasmen, attack!  We'll soon see this comparison off our green and bountiful shores, tally ho!

I suppose I should provide some explanation why I keep doing this.  Essentially, the "a cup of coffee costs x and provides x amount of time of enjoyment" is annoying and is really a bad example that people keep on trying to push on others constantly.  That beer may cost £2.20 but not only are you also paying for the social environment of the pub, but you have to consider that the materials used in the beer has had to be grown, processed and possibly also shipped to get to you in such a form, each step costing money, and the end result is something only one person can use unless they choose to give up some of their pint for someone else to drink.  You are also not drinking constantly (well most of us are not), and the effects of the alcohol persists for longer than the 20 minutes it takes to drink.  You also get a serving wench to serve you who also has to be paid.  Therefore it is not the length but the quality of the experience and the cost to provide said experience that you need to consider.

In short, while it may be worth it according to the method of measurement you use, it is not necessarily worth it according to the measurement of worth other people use, and the constant pushing of this measurement (and example) upon others has really gotten on my ******!    So, in shorter summary, if you really want to annoy me use the coffee example, that is all.

I still think its valid. You aren't just paying for a physical disk or the string of code (the physical cup of coffee) but the time that goes into producing it (the dev's/tester's/moderator's time = the grower's/shipper's/barista's time) and the overall experience of being in the coffee house/pub/immersed in the game)

Plus I just love coffee. There is nothing better than a strong cup of just roasted this morning, ground mere moments ago, fresh out of the french press, "my God thank you Ruta Maya coffeehouse for these wonderful beans you roast" coffee.

So, its as valid as any other comparison for analogies sake which, by their very nature, compare things that are not the same.

:bandit:Coffee

You know why the coffee analogy doesn't work? Each coffee has to be produced. Each individual coffee, from bean to your cup. Where as with software (and that is the appealing part to many people for various reasons), it's made once and can then be replicated virtually endlessly with a practical zero effort.  The same way as it works with movies. Games may not recover their cost to build on day 1, but any title of a reknown software house will within reasonable time. Like a previously used example, Starcraft is still sold and available, a decade after it was first released. By nature of this, at a certain # of sales, they will break even. Replication takes no effort so all effort is thrown on making those sales. Hello DLC vendor in your camp! That's how it works.

Here some practical calculations: If 200.000 people buy $5 DLC. That nets EA 1 million. Subtract hosting and handling cost and duty and from what remains, lets see how many resources we could employ versus how many resources had been empoyed making the DLC. They will make some nice profit already, and that was only with 200K people @ $5

Modifié par Magic Zarim, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:34 .

[addiction21]

Peeker I would reccomend something along the lines of like IGN or The Escapist forums. They would be more of a neutral ground type of setting but it is still the internet so while it might be better there will still be the mindless name calling.



And why do you get a blue box around your smiley? That is not fair

[grieferbastard]

I'm going to agree with everyone who says the prices for DLC are too high. I can't turn on the news without hearing about some BioWare or EA developer getting caught knee-deep in hookers and blow, or that Lawrence F. Probst III(EA Chairman of the Board for those living under a rock) recently purchased Madagasgar, had it all paved over and towed to the US to use as an auxilliary parking lot for his collection of exotic automobiles.

....

Or maybe not.

Value is a matter of perception which is why nobody is going to agree. Logically, yes it's perfectly reasonable to charge for DLC. Someone was paid to create it. Someone was paid to manage the people who created it. Someone was paid to handle the payroll of the people who created it and managed the people creating it. Marketing it, packaging it, the whole bit. If you can get a whole game created, tested, produced and marketed for free I say more power to you. That did not happen with DA:O or the associated DLC. Unless you can find some business model that involves you paying people to do something and then giving it away for free, paying money for DLC will probably continue.

I'm happy to give them my money for DLC by the way. When the expansion comes out I'll gleefully pay my $40. In fact, I paid full price for the DLC that actually came free with my Digital Delux copy of the game and never complained. I'd have the money I pay for DLC delivered in idividual dollar bills rolled up and cupped in the cleavage of hot DA:O cosplayers if I could.

Why?

DA:O is a magnificent RPG game. Well designed, engrossing, interesting, everything from the artwork to the voice acting to the combat code and character development.  It kicked the bar for RPGs up a solid distance. I want it to be profitable. I want BioWare/EA to make so much money on it that they and everyone else reconsiders the cost and effort they're putting into games from here on out. How would you like 140 hours of gameplay to become the *standard*?

Games are developed over years. They have to be paid for by an up-front investment, a risk on someones part based on an expectation of financial return. The better that games like DA:O do, the easier it is to get people to invest that sort of money in what comes next.

As to the argument about people not 'spending their money wisely'. I've managed my money wisely for about 30 years. Well enough to recognize what a rediculously short-sighted view 'I don't pay for anything I don't have to' is. That idea does nothing but try to weasel out of carrying your weight in supporting the creating and expansion of the goods and services we as a society enjoy and want to promote. I've managed my money well enough that $5, or even $50, is less than I spend on a good dinner out. Not to mention several hours of top-grade entertainment.

Best of luck though. You keep up with your efforts to convince everyone else that they need to work hard to give you what you want for free, I'll keep using my dollar to express my support and valuation of those goods and services I would like to see succeed.

Modifié par grieferbastard, 15 janvier 2010 - 12:35 .

[Bibdy]

What's with all the godamned food analogies? Food is DISPOSABLE. You eat it once, that's it, and its necessary for basic existence.



Software is a form of entertainment. When you walk into a movie theatre and spend $10 on a ticket for a 2 hour movie, do you



A) Assume you're spending $5 per hour of entertainment, and if you're happy with that price thus are always pleased regardless of the movie you see or



You read reviews, hear what your friends have to say, see commercials for it and determine if its worth it BEFORE you step into the theatre, maybe you're excited as all hell on release day, or you wait a few days after release, maybe you're curious from what others have said, buy a ticket, watch it, and THEN decide if it was worth it?



Its like any form of entertainment, you have to understand it a least a little before you go in there, otherwise you have no excuse for being 'robbed blind' by the people you gave your money to.



And unlike most forms of entertainment, software is RECYCLABLE. You can come back and play it later, like a DVD, or a song on your iPod. Unlike a movie ticket, or a concert, or a 6-pack of booze, you get to come back and re-use it whenever you like. And the more you use it, the more you get for your price...



I don't know why these concepts are so alien to people on this forum.