945 réponses à ce sujet

[Crusader-Be]

David Gaider wrote...
or me from being proud of them. And I'll leave it at that.

U have alot off reason to be proud off youre product, it has everything a top game should have, on pc version i havent seen any bugs that anoy me that much to stop me from playing it.  I do feel that 360 customers r left behind as nobody will even give them a heads up when a issue is there, i mean, even if there is no awnser just give em the heads up . Altough the comunity forum holds no binding to support, meaning bioware or EA does not have to awnser on the forums since u need to fill in the DA customer support form (found here )
so i dont even think this should be touched in a "dlc should be free topic since it has nothing to do with it.

btw mr gaider, i whas so impressed by the dragon age story that 2day i ordered youre 2 dragon age books (the calling and the stolen throne) if they r half as good as the origins story i will be equally impressed

[Dargone]

This just in-Bioware is a business and a business exists to make money. Do you work for free? Of course not, yet you expect the people employed by Bioware to work for free?! These kind of posts boggle my mind.

It's not as if the "core" game is unfinished or comparatively short compared to most games. There is extra content available, for a nominal fee, that you are able to purchase if so inclined. DLC content is here to stay and a model, I would imagine, that is profitable for all involved, else why would it be so popular in todays game market.

Now, as a PC gamer we have been spoiled for years with lots of free updates, tool sets, etc. Bioware has not abandoned us either, we do have the tool set and there are already some great mods available. As long as Bioware continues to offer that "extra" bit of support for us PC gamers than I am a happy guy.

I will continue to support companies that make quality products and purchase DLC from said companies. If it ever becomes a situation where the "core" game is unfinished/unplayable than I think you would have a fair argument. That is certainly not the case here.

Modifié par Dargone, 15 janvier 2010 - 01:46 .

[grieferbastard]

I don't actually like forums from a game community standpoint. People will behave online in a manner that would never fly in person or over the phone. We, as human beings, convey the majority of our intent and emotional state through visual cues and voice inflection. It also lets us gague, real-time, what our behavior is doing to the people we're speaking with. That way when we have a sudden, irrational response to something and lash out like a jackass we stop ourselves rather quickly when we see/hear the response of our audience.

Doesn't happen online. We drone on and on about utterly self-absorbed and obnoxious things while staying totally oblivious to the response it's illiciting from our audience. In fact forums tend to draw out the worst offenders because the environment caters to people pretty much want to talk to themselves but feel like other people are listening and then get offended when someone DOES listen and doesn't respond how they want to.

I like to think the best of people. I'd like to think that 99% of the people on these forums are nice people at heart and don't want to actually upset anyone, just that it's hard to convey even minor irritation in a forum style setting without it coming across poorly. I don't think there's anyone on the forums that doesn't think DA:O is an incredible game and worthy of a lot of pride from the developers, which is probably why any sort of problem or concern with it can cut so deep. If my cable goes out while the news is on, I'm vaguely irritated. If lightning kills the power in the middle of the season finale of House I'm going to call the Vatican and demand a written apology from God for what was clearly a direct and pre-meditated attack on my happiness and well-being.

@ David Gaider;

You should be proud. Everyone involved should be. I can count on one hand the RPGs I've played on the computer since the early 80s that were this good. You know, I really enjoyed Oblivion. Did a great job immersing me in the game world and as a first-person RPG it was top notch. The story, the world itself and how it lived and breathed around the story I was playing in wasn't this good though. I also don't think the interface both in terms of interacting with the environment as well as managing my character gets enough credit. I installed NWN 2 again the other day (as I wait patiently for new DLC) and quickly ran out of patience for how clumsy the interface felt compared to what I've come to expect thanks to DA:O. From camera angle management to equipment. 

I also think that the game world itself is effecting the fantasy genre. How magic was handled at a cultural level (vulerability to demon posession, the fundamental 'trading the soul for power' option and how society and religion handle it? Golden. Like an old friend with a sexy new look) and the subtle inclusion of familiar social references (french/orlais, english/ferelden) that make bridging the gap from player to character easier. I'd bet cash money that versions of DA:Os take on these popular fantasy subjects will end up in novels, stories and pen/paper RPG stock soon enough.

You should be proud. 22 years from now people will look back at this game and **** about whatever they're playing at the time the same way people still try and compare games today to games like Ultima V from 1988 and how it was 'revolutionary' and 'mold-breaking'. People will be creating mods for games ten and twenty years from now to try and recreate what you helped make in this game. That's pretty awesome. Most of us go our whole lives without being part of something that cool.

Nobody is going to be talking 20 years from now about how it took an extra couple weeks for one of the DLCs to get released. They're going to be ****ing at whoever is creating the DA:O Reborn mod for whatever the cool RPG at the time is for delaying their next patch 2 weeks because DA:O was just that freaking amazing.

Modifié par grieferbastard, 15 janvier 2010 - 02:04 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

grieferbastard wrote...
A bunch of good stuff that was made unintentionally hilarious because his name was '"Griefer Bastard"

just sayin

[Parker Kincaid]

JironGhrad wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

grieferbastard wrote...

I would love to see the percentage of consumers who have game-breaking technical issues with DA:O.

As would I; from the tone of some posts, you would think that nobody can play certain versions of the game despite the fact that people with those versions of the game have completed it without serious issues.

They like to rant and flame people who dare to suggest that it might be a localized problem rather than a widespread one too. The only thing more dangerous than a person intent on causing harm is a person with a little knowledge and a misguided sense of that same knowledge. If I had a dime for every time I've heard, "I built this computer myself and there's no way anything could be wrong with it" then my grandchildren would still be living off the leftovers when THEY have grandchildren.

I am in no way discounting the fact that problems may be greatly plaguing some users but historically speaking gamers or users of other software that experience problems even when they may only be in a 1% minority of all users tend to have an overwhelmingly loud and vocal voice. Not all people who have no problems visit forums while many many people who are suffering problems do. This can result in polling results that are inaccurate due to the data pool containing a disproportionately large group of people with problems.

Personally, I played the PC version for over 80 hours with no bugs that caused significant problems. No game stoppers or crashes. I have a number of friends who also played the PC version who finished the game without major issues like those described in the forums. Again, I am not saying problems don't exist because I am sure that they do but I believe that a number of the major game stopping bugs require certain criteria to be met before they become evident and, in my case, that never occurred.

Hopefully BioWare is able to pinpoint and resolve any existing and verifiable issues with DA:O soon. I suspect that not all problems encountered will turn out being a problem with DA:O, however, and instead be rooted somewhere else.

Modifié par Parker Kincaid, 15 janvier 2010 - 02:23 .

[Peeker2009]

Wow, this forum is fast. Went to make a cup of coffee, and another page has been added lol.

Can I just say, I have no doubt that the developers at Bioware are doing their level best to create an enjoyable experience for gamers, and that I enjoyed DA:O enough to play it twice, which already puts it in elite company as far as I'm concerned. I'm usually a one-time-through kind of player. I see no necessary conflct between creating value and making a living,

I have seen first hand, however, that the objectives of management and those under them can be worlds apart. (Edit: I started to give some examples here but realised that I this was turning it into an essay lol. I'm quite sure, anyway, that most of you will have had similar experiences.) Suffice to say, I quit my last job a couple of months ago (I'm a teacher btw) when "loyalty" to the company was directly conflicting with my integrity in the classroom, or my loyalty to my students, and I became hopelessly trapped in between.

In fact I learnt that in management meetings, students were no longer referred to as students, not even as customers, but as assets, that while the college could afford to "donate" 20 million dollars to the university, when asked about decent meals for student graduation, the CEO (an HR professional) replied (twice) that she wasn't running a soup kitchen. Where do you start trying to change that kind of attitude?

Whether this example in any way mirrors the relationship between companies like Bioware and EA I couldn't presume to say, but I in my profession, the suits are taking over and the teachers are increasingly being told (or it is merely implied) to shape up or ship out. It's really hard to ship out when you have mouths to feed, mortgages to pay, and therefore short-and-curlies are quite firmly in the company's grasp. Anyway, I aplogise for airing my dirty laundry here

Back to the topic, I must confess that DA:O is the first game with DLC I have ever bought, and I am still getting used to the concept, and unsure whether, in the long run, it will improve, diminish, or have no affect whatsoever on my own gaming experience if I decide not to participate. Only time will tell I suppose.

I must also confess that I have too much time on my hands these days lol

btw, addiction21, I have no idea how I got the cool boxed smiley. I will experiement and let you know hehe.
EDIT: Oh and thanks for the info../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png Hmm i did it again, just a simple click and drag I think

Modifié par Peeker2009, 15 janvier 2010 - 04:25 .

[grieferbastard]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

grieferbastard wrote...
A bunch of good stuff that was made unintentionally hilarious because his name was '"Griefer Bastard"

just sayin

A bit ironic now. From the days when spawn camping with a rocket launcher was never NOT funny.

Parker Kincaid wrote...

JironGhrad wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

grieferbastard wrote...
....

....

They like to rant and flame people who dare to suggest that it might be a localized problem rather than a widespread one too. The only thing more dangerous than a person intent on causing harm is a person with a little knowledge and a misguided sense of that same knowledge. If I had a dime for every time I've heard, "I built this computer myself and there's no way anything could be wrong with it" then my grandchildren would still be living off the leftovers when THEY have grandchildren.

I am in no way discounting the fact that problems may be greatly plaguing some users but historically speaking gamers or users of other software that experience problems even when they may only be in a 1% minority of all users tend to have an overwhelmingly loud and vocal voice. Not all people who have no problems visit forums while many many people who are suffering a problems do. This can result in polling results that are inaccurate.

Personally, I played the PC version for over 80 hours with no bugs that caused significant problems. No game stoppers or crashes. I have a number of friends who also played the PC version who finished the game without major issues like those described in the forums. Again, I am not saying problems don't exist because I am sure that they do but I believe that a number of the major game stopping bugs require certain criteria to be met before they become evident and, in my case, that never occurred.

Hopefully BioWare is able to pinpoint and resolve any existing and verifiable issues with DA:O soon. I suspect that not all problems encountered will turn out being a problem with DA:O, however, and instead be rooted somewhere else.

I would say that by the time all existing bugs are squashed new bugs associated with some new service pack for Windows 7 will show up or some new driver from NVIDIA, or issues with newly released DLC. It is no longer possible to release any sort of software as 100% perfect. In truth it never was. By the time development and testing have finished there will have been new changes in the target market. I'm both pleased and impressed that Bioware is doing the responsible if painful step of delaying revenue generation for the sake of quality control. It's hard to even get pharmaceuticals and raw food production (meat/vegitable) to do that.

I promise not to destroy civilization until AFTER it's released, so everyone can just relax and wait until it's ready to roll. Try to avoid playing in traffic or eating lead-based paint-chips until then and maybe, just maybe, we'll all be okay and get to enjoy the new toys when they are ready.

[Runn1ng1]

 I agree a little bit.the prices are high for dlc.and the content is little.but still if the prices were a tad bit lower it would be better.i admit i was sad with the length of wardens keep.i expected it to be at least 2 hours long.i'm just lucky i got shale for free.$15 for a companion isn't worth it. but i'm not saying that all the dlc isn't worth the price.it makes the game better.

[Franpa]

15$ for Shale also nets your party additional experience points, don't forget that fact.

[Jerrodd]

[quote]wowpwnslol wrote...

I think it's a huge joke for Bioware to charge outrageous amounts of money for so little content. All of them can be finished in less than an hour and their main purpose is not to advance the story in a meaningful way, but to give player extra items. I can admit that Shale was moderately interesting - but then again they're planning on charging $15 for it, which is ridiculous. Don't get me started on RtO - they are basically recycling old stuff and charging for it. Oh wow, it has some new items. How amazing.

Because $15 is sooooo much money. Look I am sure the people at Bioware pend a lot of time making these DLC because the consumers want more. They are not just going to work hours and hours on something and they just say hey what the heck we should give it to them or free!  They could be charging so much more for what they are putting out there. If it bothers you so much then don't buy the DLCs and move on with your life.

[DoctorPringles]

Franpa wrote...

15$ for Shale also nets your party additional experience points, don't forget that fact.

Only people paying for Shale are those that are using second-hand games, which is probably pretty rare, considering how new the game is. The Shale-for-free-with-new-game thing was a fantastic marketing maneuver in terms of ensuring minimal loss due to trade-ins, with potential for actual profit.

I agree with ONE thing about this thread. Warden's Keep was overpriced. However, seeing as they made RtO only $5, I'd say they've redeemed themselves. $15 dollars, to me, should net me a small expansion. Nothing the size of Awakening, of course, but decent in size. And by size I mean mostly the story and gameplay.

[addiction21]

DoctorPringles wrote...

Franpa wrote...

15$ for Shale also nets your party additional experience points, don't forget that fact.

Only people paying for Shale are those that are using second-hand games, which is probably pretty rare, considering how new the game is. The Shale-for-free-with-new-game thing was a fantastic marketing maneuver in terms of ensuring minimal loss due to trade-ins, with potential for actual profit.

I agree with ONE thing about this thread. Warden's Keep was overpriced. However, seeing as they made RtO only $5, I'd say they've redeemed themselves. $15 dollars, to me, should net me a small expansion. Nothing the size of Awakening, of course, but decent in size. And by size I mean mostly the story and gameplay.

It is scientific fact that width is more pleasurable then length

[mrmike_1949]

herwin1 wrote...

 No.

Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.

Agreed, it's the amount of money that I disagree with!

The game itself sells for ~ $50 ; that has to pay for all developement of game engine, game writing, graphics, voices, etc, marketing, and production (dvds and cases and distribution), also profit for retail sales. Game playing time varies, but is likely at least 50 hours for the first play through (with no DLC).

This equals 1$ per hour of game play (conservatively: my first play through took over 75 hours).

Any DLC done only need game writing/scripting and voices and maybe some new graphics (items) - no game engine dev costs, almost no marketing or distribution costs. No retail sales, only online form EA/Bioware

So why do they think it's worth $5 for 45 minutes of game play for dlc ??????? Six (6) times as exspensive at the original game???

Any ideas out there?

MikeK

[Arinosmirc]

mrmike_1949 wrote...

herwin1 wrote...

 No.

Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.

Agreed, it's the amount of money that I disagree with!

The game itself sells for ~ $50 ; that has to pay for all developement of game engine, game writing, graphics, voices, etc, marketing, and production (dvds and cases and distribution), also profit for retail sales. Game playing time varies, but is likely at least 50 hours for the first play through (with no DLC).

This equals 1$ per hour of game play (conservatively: my first play through took over 75 hours).

Any DLC done only need game writing/scripting and voices and maybe some new graphics (items) - no game engine dev costs, almost no marketing or distribution costs. No retail sales, only online form EA/Bioware

So why do they think it's worth $5 for 45 minutes of game play for dlc ??????? Six (6) times as exspensive at the original game???

Any ideas out there?

MikeK

There's a major flaw in your logic there.

And that thinking that there's a directly correlation between cost and game length. There isn't. I believe there was a topic where someone finished the game in 11 hours. Myself, I take my time, and, well I don't actually keep track of how long I play, but it's heck of a lot longer then that! We paid the same for the game, hence, because of that, you cannot tie the cost of purchasing the game with how long it takes to play it.

Just doesn't work, because the length of the game is subjective.

Looking at Warden's Keep. 7 bucks. And it was short, very short. But it adds more to the setting lore-wise, which fleshes out the setting. Which should be what you're really looking to get with your money, not how long it is.

For example, I refused to buy Pinnacle Station for ME, and the arena DLC for Borderlands. Why? Because reading up on them, they don't add much to the game story wise. Don't care for arena gameplay. Very uninteresting.

I'll be buying RtO, because it adds to the story of DA, and any insights that will come up during it.

[mrmike_1949]

Arinosmirc wrote...

mrmike_1949 wrote...

herwin1 wrote...

 No.

Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.

Agreed, it's the amount of money that I disagree with!

The game itself sells for ~ $50 ; that has to pay for all developement of game engine, game writing, graphics, voices, etc, marketing, and production (dvds and cases and distribution), also profit for retail sales. Game playing time varies, but is likely at least 50 hours for the first play through (with no DLC).

This equals 1$ per hour of game play (conservatively: my first play through took over 75 hours).

Any DLC done only need game writing/scripting and voices and maybe some new graphics (items) - no game engine dev costs, almost no marketing or distribution costs. No retail sales, only online form EA/Bioware

So why do they think it's worth $5 for 45 minutes of game play for dlc ??????? Six (6) times as exspensive at the original game???

Any ideas out there?

MikeK

There's a major flaw in your logic there.

And that thinking that there's a directly correlation between cost and game length. There isn't. I believe there was a topic where someone finished the game in 11 hours. Myself, I take my time, and, well I don't actually keep track of how long I play, but it's heck of a lot longer then that! We paid the same for the game, hence, because of that, you cannot tie the cost of purchasing the game with how long it takes to play it.

Just doesn't work, because the length of the game is subjective.

Looking at Warden's Keep. 7 bucks. And it was short, very short. But it adds more to the setting lore-wise, which fleshes out the setting. Which should be what you're really looking to get with your money, not how long it is.

For example, I refused to buy Pinnacle Station for ME, and the arena DLC for Borderlands. Why? Because reading up on them, they don't add much to the game story wise. Don't care for arena gameplay. Very uninteresting.

I'll be buying RtO, because it adds to the story of DA, and any insights that will come up during it.

1) Nobody coud finish the game in 11 hours without massive cheating: no time for dialog or looting or exploring, must have powerful weapons, armor and specs; only possible way is to bypass EVERY sidequest, and still skip almost all dialogs; nope, still don't beleive it could be done without massive cheating

2) Your logic isn't logical : game length is an actual measurable fact. Different for everyone of course, but objective, not subjective. What is subjective is the amount of enjoyment you get out of the game play.

3) If you assume that you get about the same ratio of subjective pleasure out of the DLCs as the main game ( that's measured in "smiles/hour of gameplay"), then the hours of gameplay DO count as a measure of value per dollar spent, and then the DLCs are a rip-off

4) RtO doesn't sound like it advances the story much at all - burial detail and some pay back

MikeK

[traversc]

fluffyamoeba wrote...

LDB10671 wrote...

$5 for 1 hour of game paly is far to much. that means the DAO would be worth what $250?

Either we got a good deal on the game or Bioware is ****ing us in our ass for this shamefully new content.

The first one. MW2 is 6 hours long.

Um... are you even serious?  you don't get MW2 for single player.  

 30 minutes of gameplay is not worth $5 period.  There's just no justification and they are preying on players addiction and completionism in getting all the pretty new shiny weapons and armor. 

It's just sad that so many fanboys are hurting the rest of us by enabling Bioware in this shameless money grab known as DLC.  They should be working on actual content.  And no, lots of shiny new items != content. 

Please Bioware, I beg you.  Listen to your REAL fans.  Stop this madness.  You KNOW it is wrong.  

I'll be buying RtO, because it adds to the story of DA, and any insights that will come up during it.

-OR- you can spend all of 2 minutes searching on google and reading what happens.  Yeah, a paragraph of additional storyline is so valuable. 

Modifié par traversc, 15 janvier 2010 - 07:38 .

[Pocketgb]

$5 = a tasty chinese buffet here in MI, that also has a smoking section. That's a bit hard to pass up, yo.

[AmstradHero]

traversc wrote...
Um... are you even serious?  you don't get MW2 for single player.  

30 minutes of gameplay is not worth $5 period.  There's just no justification and they are preying on players addiction and completionism in getting all the pretty new shiny weapons and armor. 

It's just sad that so many fanboys are hurting the rest of us by enabling Bioware in this shameless money grab known as DLC.  They should be working on actual content.  And no, lots of shiny new items != content. 

I don't see why I'd be getting MW2 for multiplayer... because it's EXACTLY THE SAME as multiplayer for the first one.  So hang on, I'm paying $100 (yes, that's what it costs here) for what is essentially a map pack and a 6 hour single player experience.  No thanks.  That's why I rented MW2 and bought Dragon Age.

I feel a paid a little much for Warden's Keep ($10) given the relatively short period of time it took to play through.  Would I prefer DLCs be cheaper?  A little bit cheaper, yes.
Do I feel they are "ripping players off"? Not particularly.

I'm interested in RtO, and I'll probably end up buying it, but I am hoping for a little more bang for buck from it than Warden's Keep. That said, BioWare are a business, not a charity.

[Arinosmirc]

mrmike_1949 wrote...
1) Nobody coud finish the game in 11 hours without massive cheating: no time for dialog or looting or exploring, must have powerful weapons, armor and specs; only possible way is to bypass EVERY sidequest, and still skip almost all dialogs; nope, still don't beleive it could be done without massive cheating

2) Your logic isn't logical : game length is an actual measurable fact. Different for everyone of course, but objective, not subjective. What is subjective is the amount of enjoyment you get out of the game play.

3) If you assume that you get about the same ratio of subjective pleasure out of the DLCs as the main game ( that's measured in "smiles/hour of gameplay"), then the hours of gameplay DO count as a measure of value per dollar spent, and then the DLCs are a rip-off

4) RtO doesn't sound like it advances the story much at all - burial detail and some pay back

MikeK

1) Massive cheating? Hardly. Dialogue skipping? Sure. It was a 2nd playthrough. But that aside, people CAN play with subtitles on, and don't necessarily want to sit and listen to it be read out when they already read it.
Just saying it's doable, without massive cheating.
2) If it's different for everyone, then it's hardly measurable now is it? It has NO set length, ie it takes as long as you make it take. Ergo, subjective. That's why the logic fails. You're trying to find an objective means of determining worth, when it's entirely subjective.
Besides...5 bucks? Really? It's not that expensive, and I find it rather amusing that people are making a big deal over lunch money heheh.
3) I think you're not understanding the point behind the term 'subjective'.

4) That's the basic premise, yesssss, but there will undoubtable be more to it.

traversc wrote...
-OR- you can spend all of 2 minutes searching on google and reading what happens.  Yeah, a paragraph of additional storyline is so valuable.

I could read the summary of Dragon Age in not much longer then that. But that would defeat the purpose of playing the game, now wouldn't it? How many NPCs do we have? We'll be looking a specific dialogue from all of them, and to fully explore all that dialogue will require more then one playthough. Furthermore, you'll have invested your character into the setting more deeply.

If you don't care for that, then why are you even playing DA? Story is the primary focus here lol...

[TheMadCat]

traversc wrote...
 
 30 minutes of gameplay is not worth $5 period.  There's just no justification and they are preying on players addiction and completionism in getting all the pretty new shiny weapons and armor. 

So let's say I do 4 more run throughs with DA:O. That would be about 2 hours worth of time spent with RTO. Would you still say I overpaid even though I've gotten 2 hours out of it?

[Zram84]

Bioware definitely needs to rethink it's pricing structure. Look at phone apps. The standard prices for a generic game is 99 cents. For many of these apps the content is intriguing and the gameplay lasts long enough to be well worth it. App developers make a killing on the more successful ones. The catch is that it's on a tiny screen and the graphics are bottle necked by the phones reqs. It's similar for these add-ons. Bioware is developing awesome new content for us to explore, but it's very limited. The developers should get paid for their work on content beyond the game launch (how else will they afford to continue developing?), but the price should represent the content and $15 for shale and another $7 for Warden's keep is just to high for me to purchase beyond the game.

[Cheshire Madcat]

My 2-cents on this thread. (Beyond the fact that I think the WoW fanboy was a troll.) I'm willing to spend extra money for extras to a game that I enjoy. I feel it is a way to support a company that makes good products. Would I of liked them to be cheaper, yes, am I upset, no. It's the cost of a fast food stop and lord knows I don't need more junk food.

[DragonRageGT]

David Gaider wrote...
Ultimately our goal as a game developer is to provide a solid product that our customers will enjoy -- that is and remains our focus, as I think it should be.

And that you did, Ser!

I wonder how customers react when some major company's product they may have bought (and, sometimes, paid big bucks for it) needs a "recall" for whatever reason. I hope those companies don't have a Forum!

[Sonalia]

Really? Free?

I am afraid I can not agree with the sentiment. There are many free games out there and, honestly, they pale in comparison. Often times they wave the free banner but the players end up having to pay for supposed niceties and perks. Frankly those games tend to be of shoddy build and have neither good customer service or staying power.



Game companies are [not] charities. If you enjoy the game and what it has to offer why niggle over paying a tithe for extra functionality that is entirely optional? In order for the game to continue to expand, be it in small or large steps, there has to be money in the lock box.



Personally I have enjoyed both Warden's Keep and The Stone Prisoner. They are stepping stones to help one get over the pond of a wait between the initial release and Awakening.



I do understand the problem with the pricing differences; however, there was a difference in the amount of added content between the two which may well be the reason for the pricing.