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DLC's should be free


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#776
Sloth Of Doom

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MerinTB wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I think all of our mistakes is that since traversc has moved from name-calling at the start to just shifting his argument and taking our responses out of context we think he is trying to be rational and actually have an honest discussion with us.

It is about time to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he is not debating in good faith.


Welcome to yesterday :P


I'm also extremely willing (perhaps overly so) to try and see the best in people.

It's often a disappointing exercise, but you can't say I don't try!:blink:



See, I am very willing to see the worst in people.  I am rarely surprised, but when I am it s always pleasant. :o

#777
traversc

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I'm having trouble understanding what "pay scale" you are referring to? Could you please elaborate?

If the "quality" of a product is based on one's subjective opinion of the value of the received service, why are we still arguing about the "quality" of Bioware's DLC?


To be clear:

The quality of the product is based on both objective and subjective measrues. The quality of gameplay is somewhat more subjective than other measures, but I posited that the gameplay in RtO and DA:O are quite similar. No one has disputed this point.



Thus, you are left with amount of content, a more objective measure. We then determine the relative amount of content between RtO and DA:O with any number of objective variables, such as gameplay length. There are of course, other subjective measures that have not been accounted for. But when objective measures point towards a huge disparity in pay scale, it becomes clear that subjective measures cannot make up the difference.



Ok, say Bioware did try releasing DLC "on the same pay scale". Since there is less apparent effort put into DLC compared to the base game, doesn't it seem logical that such content would end up being free, or at such low cost that posting it on PSN and XBL wouldn't be profitable?

Maybe it won't be profitable. Maybe instead of reducing the price, they could increase the amount of content?



It doesn't take into account the amount of work that goes into everything in the DLC; the environments and such are content too, even if you don't think of them as such.


Yes,environments are certainly content. But don't forget that DA:O has a huge amount of environments, compared to RtO, which just has 2-3. Gameplay length is a sampling variable, and you don't need to take into account other variables to get a rough estimate. If gameplay length correlates to the number of environments you still have a relative proportion that is the same. In other words, 2 environments and 60 minutes of gameplay is still twice as much content than 30 minutes and 1 environment, and not say 4x as much content (which wouldn't help your counterargument, anyway).

#778
TheMadCat

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That is seriously misrepresenting my argument.  If RtO were free
compared to DA:O would be much greater than DA:O.  In fact, it would
(theoretically) be infinitely greater. 

"Overpriced" by
definition means the price is greater than the value.  I stated in post
#1, that RtO was overpriced compared to DA:O.   If RtO were free, then
it would be impossible for it to be overpriced.  I have no idea why you
think I would argue such. 

Edit: Let me try to explain what I mean one more time (for you ;)). 

Suppose
you have product A that has a value of a certain value, which can't
quite be quantified.  You also have a product B, whose relative value
is 10x product A.  Product B is being sold at $10 and product A is
being sold at $5.  Thus, relative to B, A is overpriced.  Is product A
were free, then relative to B, A would be underpriced. 

I'd also like you to notice that I essentially stated such in post #1. 


That's all fine and dandy but just a few posts earlier you said money has no importance towards value yet in this post here you clearly state it does. You're flip-floping harder then a sleezy politican and it's making it real hard to take you seriously.

How do you consider DA:O a worthy compairson though to RtO though? They are two entierly different things looking to achieve two entierly different goals. I used this analogy earlier, it's like you're comparing a engine and a car when you should be comparing two engines or two cars. Wouldn't it be more accurate to compare it to something that attempts to fill the same roll as RtO, meaning other DLC's. Compairing DA:O and RtO is asinine.

#779
Sloth Of Doom

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Ever been to a party, and one guy person sounds kind of interesting, but after listening t him ramble on and on and on without going anywhere you realize he is a total moron



Throughout the night different people drift over to the place where he continues to babble, but any time someone calls him on something he changes the subject or redefines his parameters.



Later on, when you are leaving the party, you see this guy getting the crap kicked out of him for being a douche, and you feel like maybe you should stop and say something but you realize that even though he is down and bleeding out of his ears, he still insists there was no holocaust, or that 9/11 was a government plot or some other silly thing, so you just leave and hope it hurts?



Ever have that happen?

#780
addiction21

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Ever been to a party, and one guy person sounds kind of interesting, but after listening t him ramble on and on and on without going anywhere you realize he is a total moron

Throughout the night different people drift over to the place where he continues to babble, but any time someone calls him on something he changes the subject or redefines his parameters.

Later on, when you are leaving the party, you see this guy getting the crap kicked out of him for being a douche, and you feel like maybe you should stop and say something but you realize that even though he is down and bleeding out of his ears, he still insists there was no holocaust, or that 9/11 was a government plot or some other silly thing, so you just leave and hope it hurts?

Ever have that happen?


Honestly? Twice and I was the person doing the kickingImage IPB

not to go on a drunken rant or anything but I mean what I say and say whaty I mean. I would be locked away for a very long time if people actualy acted like they do on the internet.

Modifié par addiction21, 17 janvier 2010 - 04:11 .


#781
Sloth Of Doom

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addiction21 wrote...
Honestly? Twice and I was the person doing the kickingImage IPB

not to go on a drunken rant or anything but I mean what I say and say whaty I mean. I would be locked away for a very long time if people actualy acted like they do on the internet.


Words more true were never spoken.

#782
addiction21

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
Honestly? Twice and I was the person doing the kickingImage IPB

not to go on a drunken rant or anything but I mean what I say and say whaty I mean. I would be locked away for a very long time if people actualy acted like they do on the internet.


Words more true were never spoken.


****ing A now order some goddamn oldbay. If its not good on your dead fish then try it on french fries, if not on fries top a hamburger on it, if not that then throw it on mac and cheese, if that dont work throw it on some waffles.

#783
mrmike_1949

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grieferbastard wrote...

....blah blah blah

Didn't we beat this subject until it coughed up its lunch money already?

Look. What are you attempting to accomplish? Convince other people to accept your personal opinions on valuation in an effort to change BioWare/EAs business model? 

If you don't want it, don't buy it.

......blah blah blah

DLC should be more expensive. I'd vote for that.


Fine, I'll sell you  RtO for $15, feel better now?

MikeK

#784
MerinTB

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I have questions for the non-traversc people out there:

(traversc, you can answer if you want but you have dodged the questions so far so I'm not directly asking you anymore)

1.) What do you consider content?  I'm not asking what you like, or what you can do without - no opinions on importance or if X is better than Y.  What could be included in a DLC or expansion pack that should be considered content?

2.) Do you believe that people willing to pay the going price for a product in some way are harming people who would only buy said product for a cheaper price?  If Joe Millionaire goes and buys a steak dinner at a fancy restaurant, paying a couple hundred dollars for his meal and tips, am I now somehow "hurt" because I'd want that steak dinner but would only be willing to pay less than tweny dollars?

3.) If you repeatedly ask questions of someone and they don't answer them, are they really having an honest debate with you?  If Sloth of Doom and addiction21 were having a discussion about movies, and SoD said "James Cameron sucks as a director," to which add asks "Why do you say James Cameron sucks as a director?" and SoD responds "I think Leo DiCaprio's acting in Titantic was horrible" - and it goes on like that: add "But Cameron, what do you think he does poorly?" SoD "Ridley Scott's Alien was such a good movie, not like Aliens." Add "Sloth, seriously, what about Alien is better than Aliens?" SoD "Ridley Scott also made Gladiator and Blade Runner.  Blade Runner is superior to Terminator."

4.) If someone's reasoning keeps shifting and their end point changes everytime you ask for clarification is it even worth trying to discuss anything with them?  If I were to say "Rap music is horrible, everybody knows that, it makes no money and no one likes it!" and someone quoted sales numbers and lists themselves as like rap, to the point that everyone has responded to me as liking rap in the thread and enough people have pointed out millionaires who made their money from rap music, and then I say "I never said nobody likes rap music, but music critics and professors who teach music at academies all say that rap music is not really music," to which numerous people cite critics raving about rap music, an actual music professor posts about how rap music has value as art and explains why he thinks so, and then I say "Look, of course there are critics and people who teach music who like rap - they probably grew up on it, but don't take an argument from authority here - no one may be taking the time to post on this thread, but many, probably the silent majority, know rap stinks!" --- would anyone bother debating me anymore?

---

So those 4 questions, please, answer them for me.  Anyone.  traversc will most likely ignore them and grab some line out of my extended example to pick apart - actually, if previous examples stand, he'll grab two or more separate snippets out of order and put them together like this -

(not)traversc didn't really write but this sounds like his MO ...

I'm saying MerinTB wrote contextually...
it makes no money and no one likes it
Ridley Scott also made
a couple hundred dollars for his meal

You can't have have value for a meal, taste is subjective.
Ridley Scottt is irrelevant.
I liked it.


Just saying.

Modifié par MerinTB, 17 janvier 2010 - 05:55 .


#785
mrmike_1949

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David Gaider wrote...

It would probably be much easier just to say

"DLC BAD. NOT WANT. NOT WANT ANYONE TO WANT."

wouldn't it?


No, actually, I would like to have the DLCs, but I feel that the value is not there in a 30 - 45 minutes DLC for $5.

I feel that EA/BW is really socking it to the customers by that type of pricing: 10% the cost of the entire game for 1% the content of the entire game

MikeK

#786
mrmike_1949

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Sloth Of Doom wrote...

sprybry wrote...

mrmike_1949 wrote...

sprybry wrote...

mrmike_1949 wrote...

People are saying the expansion (Awakening) is overpriced at $40 for 15 hours

MikeK



well, since ea.com has the pc version on for $29.95, and no one from bioware has said anything about the 'alleged 15 hours' of playtime, we should just let the misinformed rabble babble. 


EA Store lists it at $39.95, while EA.com lists $29.95 ??wtf
And I suspect the 15 hours is optimistic

MikeK


fernando melo was quoted in his ign interview stating that they expect that players will finish awakening with levels in the mid to high 30's.  consider that most players finish origins in the low 20's.  you do the math.


60/20=3x10=30...carry the 4, multiply by the mean average tempratue of madrid in celcius, add the square root of pi, divide by the average number of lightyears traveled by systems in the crab nebula and adjust for internet...

15

I don't see the problem?


Actually, I didn't have much of a problem with the 15 hour estimate (at least for $30); if it actually is 30 hours for $40, GREAT, I'll buy it and be a very happy camper. I'm stillnot gonna pay $5 for RtO though, or $7 for WK

You do understand that your math assumes a consistant "level rise/hour played" don't you??

MikeK

#787
mrmike_1949

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MerinTB wrote...

Last one, I swear!


You Lied!!:devil:

MikeK

#788
MerinTB

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Last one, I swear!


You Lied!!:devil:

MikeK


Of the responses to that one post of traversc, it was the last one.

:D

#789
addiction21

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1. Waffles are content right? Honestly tho Items, weapons, armor, story, lore, textures ranging from new items to the enviroment, and to shorten it up what ever comes inside the "box"
2.Only harm would be If I was someone wanting to buy it at a lower price.
3. Do you like waffles?
4 Well that depends. Will I get waffles later?

#790
SolidDuece

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I don't even need to read the topic to know how stupid it is. Stop being a crybaby. It's either you want more content or you don't. It's that simple. No one is going to hand you stuff for free. That's not how the world works.

#791
mrmike_1949

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In order to lighten up the tone of this thread, here's a link good for a laugh

www.tomshardware.com/news/video-card-upgrade-tutorial-guide,9449.html

MikeK

#792
MerinTB

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addiction21 wrote...

1. Waffles are content right? Honestly tho Items, weapons, armor, story, lore, textures ranging from new items to the enviroment, and to shorten it up what ever comes inside the "box"
2.Only harm would be If I was someone wanting to buy it at a lower price.
3. Do you like waffles?
4 Well that depends. Will I get waffles later?


You just think you are so bloody clever with those waffles, don't you?

Just out of curiousity - what waffle iron do you use?

#793
addiction21

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My foremen grill has some excellent waffle plates.

#794
mrmike_1949

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I still think the monkey is funnier than waffles

#795
addiction21

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

I still think the monkey is funnier than waffles


What is great about that is I get about 50 dollars for doing that in my area. Tax free... as a side job... ya life can be good sometimes.

#796
mrmike_1949

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addiction21 wrote...

mrmike_1949 wrote...

I still think the monkey is funnier than waffles


What is great about that is I get about 50 dollars for doing that in my area. Tax free... as a side job... ya life can be good sometimes.


Then all you need is a monkey or two, and you can sit back, guzzle beer, and play DAO

MikeK

#797
krisd2

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MerinTB wrote...
Wall of text *10


traversc trolled you bro.

srs bzns

#798
addiction21

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mrmike_1949 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

mrmike_1949 wrote...

I still think the monkey is funnier than waffles


What is great about that is I get about 50 dollars for doing that in my area. Tax free... as a side job... ya life can be good sometimes.


Then all you need is a monkey or two, and you can sit back, guzzle beer, and play DAO

MikeK


Ahit if it was only true. It does actualy cover my beer and fun fund.

krisd2 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Wall of text *10


traversc trolled you bro.

srs bzns


ya I know like omg uber trollz son hurr de hurr hurr durr...

To be trolled one must be oblivious of being trolled and a palpable emotional response must be enacted in the one being trolled. Non of which is true in Merins case.
Also a troll is measured in how much he need to write to garner such a response. In this case traversc would be the worst troll ever or just be that thick headed.

Modifié par addiction21, 17 janvier 2010 - 06:52 .


#799
CaptainAlex2000

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I had no problems with the DLC. It is not like the normal version of the game was too short!! Everyone who bought the game got plenty of value for their money!



I bought the DLCs and was happy to do so. A bit more money, and I got a few more hours with my the game. Worth every penny.



And if it makes the game more profitable? Well, maybe there will be more DLCs, and a Dragon Age 2! Madden NFL comes out every year, if Dragon Age is a big enough hit, why can't it be the same?

#800
Guest_sprybry_*

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1.) What do you consider content?  ANY AND ALL DLC IS CONTENT!  it does take different forms, such as item dlc (the edge, blood dragon armor, etc), add-on dlc (warden's keep, the stone prisoner), and expansions (awakening).  it all adds something to the core game.

2.) Do you believe that people willing to pay the going price for a product in some way are harming people who would only buy said product for a cheaper price?  we all have freewill and choice.  if a company offers me a product that i want at a price that i am willing to pay, then i am going to buy it.  if we follow that logic of not wanting to 'harm' our fellow consumer, then we wouldn't be able to buy a goddam thing (because there is ALWAYS someone that wants it cheaper).  the bonus of being a cheapskate in the video game industry is that you will eventually get what you want.  you may have to wait for 6 months to a year for the prices to drop, but hey, you got your win (sort of).

3.) If you repeatedly ask questions of someone and they don't answer them, are they really having an honest debate with you?  no.

4.) If someone's reasoning keeps shifting and their end point changes everytime you ask for clarification is it even worth trying to discuss anything with them?  no.  

i have to say that over the past 5 pages or so, it has been increasingly difficult to follow the ever-shifting logic of traversc's arguments.  this isn't meant to be a flame, traversc, but you remind me of that old SNL skit, "point/counterpoint", where you play the part of dan akroyd ("jane, you ignorant ****").  you do not gain any credibility by constantly shifting, tweaking, or downright changing your arguments.

what i find offensive about traversc's posts is that he seems to be attempting to tell us what our criteria for 'value' should be.  i am an individual, and i have my own criteria for 'value' that i'm sure differs from many others.  VALUE IS 100% SUBJECTIVE!  anyone who attempts to quantify or objectify someone's personal sense of value needs to seriously "get stuffed"!  the arrogance of that endeavour is staggering.  he should start shovelling what he's dropping.

y'all want to ask for free dlc?  while i don't agree, go right ahead.  if the "cheap dlc" groundswell is as great as traversc says, then you may get your wish.  if not, then see answer #2.