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[TEWR]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Dragons are just beasts, animals, no more intelligent than a dolphin.

Eh, that's up for debate. This Codex Entry talks a lot about the idea of intelligence in Dragons, all things considered. Particularly the last few paragraphs.

Andraste was not reborn into a dragon, those people were crazy.

For believing the High Dragon was Andraste reborn, sure.

But intelligence wise, there's a fair deal of doubt on the matter of High Dragons being sentient or not.

The Old Gods were in the forms of dragons but were not real dragons, as the Old Gods were sentient and could speak, and dragons are beasts and just go rawr.

So does Urthemiel in DAO when he sees the Warden and when you fight him. Going "Rawr" doesn't mean "incapable of speech at all". 

Again, there's doubt. Considering in the Reaver Joining you hear the same weird whispering noise you hear in the Warden Joining and when the Darkspawn come out of Ostagar -- the central factor linking those three things being a connection to Dragons -- it's possible they can speak in some form.

[Daerog]

We use animals a lot in symbolism and such, a lot of attention goes into how animals are used in culture and history. In the end, they are just animals. The Chantry named it Dragon Age, but would we have to face giant raven monsters if it was called Blackbird Age?

Just an argument made to dismiss "It's called Dragon Age, so it must have unique dragons," although I do agree with making dragons better, better fights and movement and making it a much more memorable part of the game. Not because it is Dragon Age, but because it is a gigantic, fire breathing monster.

[MisanthropePrime]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Dragons are intelligent creatures in DA universe- Andraste listens to the cultist and lets you passed unharmed if you choose to aid her. And the Old God themselves, who are dragons. But I found that they are...boring in DA, in both apparence and fights.

Dragons are just beasts, animals, no more intelligent than a dolphin.

Andraste was not reborn into a dragon, those people were crazy.

The Old Gods were in the forms of dragons but were not real dragons, as the Old Gods were sentient and could speak, and dragons are beasts and just go rawr.

Well duh, but it's easier then saying "Dragon who guards the ashes" each time. But she understood Kolgrim when he pleaded with her, and she lets you pass unharmed if you side with them. Obviously she understands. If she was a dumb animal she wouldn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if that dragon named Andraste was somewhat similar to a dog, or maybe more like a tame wolf: dragons are social creatures, which would help immensely in acclimating it to obey human commands. The cultists probably feed and take care of it, and may have established some form of dominance hierarchy, thus leading it to obey their commands through learned body language and intonation of their voice.

[KiwiQuiche]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Dragons are intelligent creatures in DA universe- Andraste listens to the cultist and lets you passed unharmed if you choose to aid her. And the Old God themselves, who are dragons. But I found that they are...boring in DA, in both apparence and fights.

Dragons are just beasts, animals, no more intelligent than a dolphin.

Andraste was not reborn into a dragon, those people were crazy.

The Old Gods were in the forms of dragons but were not real dragons, as the Old Gods were sentient and could speak, and dragons are beasts and just go rawr.

Well duh, but it's easier then saying "Dragon who guards the ashes" each time. But she understood Kolgrim when he pleaded with her, and she lets you pass unharmed if you side with them. Obviously she understands. If she was a dumb animal she wouldn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if that dragon named Andraste was somewhat similar to a dog, or maybe more like a tame wolf: dragons are social creatures, which would help immensely in acclimating it to obey human commands. The cultists probably feed and take care of it, and may have established some form of dominance hierarchy, thus leading it to obey their commands through learned body language and intonation of their voice.

Or maybe she's trained the humans to kill anyone who tries to invade her territory and manipulated them into think she was a god in exhange for her giving them dragon blood and the skills to be better protectors for her brood?

[unbentbuzzkill]

@KiwiQuiche
or she just could've been full and decided to save them for a midnight snack.

[KiwiQuiche]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@KiwiQuiche
or she just could've been full and decided to save them for a midnight snack.

That as well.

[King Cousland]

krul2k wrote...

i guess we know to little about them tbh, i personally hope they turn out to be more than what we have encountered so far but thats just me

The comic books certianly seem to allude to that. 

[Daerog]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
*snip*

Doubt, sure, but still no evidence showing anything that would rank them higher than an animal. There is something in their blood that is addicting and mind altering, that's fine, but could just be an instinct and adaptation to feed it to bipedal creatures.

Urthemiel, and all those capable of speech, can go "rawr" as well, but there is nothing pointing to dragons being able to give complex orders and instructions (like how to perform magic). Could dragons do this? Sure, maybe, it is fantasy and we don't know what it's brain looks like, a wyvern could be contemplating the Jungian archetypes for all we know. With what has been shown, though, dragons are just portrayed as large beasts.

Yes, I agree there is doubt. There is always doubt, but that is because of lack of info, but the experience we do have, not just the ramblings of in-game scholars, shows nothing other than they are just beasts that are a bit unique since they can breathe fire and the blood is a life changing drug.

Edit: comics are alluding an importance to dragons, but whether it is they are special or something they do is special, I don't know and I am actually ignoring that stuff for now as it just adds confusion for now until more info is released.

Edit2: And just to be on topic, I do support making dragons better, although a large variety of different dragons would be odd since they are supposed to be on brink of extinction.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 04 mars 2013 - 12:46 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

all joking aside more variety of dragons would be great, but don't go the "Skyrim" route and make a mysterious dangerous creature annoying and predictable.

[TEWR]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Urthemiel, and all those capable of speech, can go "rawr" as well, but there is nothing pointing to dragons being able to give complex orders and instructions (like how to perform magic).

Actually, in Awakening you fight Dragons capable of using blood magic. And given the whole Reaver being blood magic along with the Old Gods reputedly teaching the Tevinter Magisters blood magic -- though some scholars also surmise it was Arlathan's Elves that taught it originally -- it seems to be a case of gameplay reflecting lore.

Could dragons do this? Sure, maybe, it is fantasy and we don't know what it's brain looks like, a wyvern could be contemplating the Jungian archetypes for all we know. With what has been shown, though, dragons are just portrayed as large beasts.

Yes, I agree there is doubt. There is always doubt, but that is because of lack of info, but the experience we do have, not just the ramblings of in-game scholars, shows nothing other than they are just beasts that are a bit unique since they can breathe fire and the blood is a life changing drug.

Well, the comics indicate that there's more to Dragons then people really think, saying that Dragons and Thedas are very interwoven into the latter being stable. Also, Yavana is able to calm down a High Dragon easily without using any magic, it seems.

That indicates an understanding of speech.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mars 2013 - 12:56 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Doesn't The Silent Grove discuss that the nature of the dragons is to be the blood of the world? I'd defer to someone else, as I haven't read the books myself.

If dragons serve some type of metaphysical purpose to the world, it could be said they are guided either by intelligence, or, perhaps, that their natural instincts are primal in nature in one aspect, but also tied to bring balance and equity to the natural world.

Besides, the Darkspawn horde in DA:O did a feint that diverted Eamon's forces away from Denerim. This implies understanding of military tactics, as well as concepts such as cities, capitals and deception. If we can believe that the Archdemon gave direction and controls the Darkspawn horde, how can one not say they are not intelligent?

[KiwiQuiche]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Urthemiel, and all those capable of speech, can go "rawr" as well, but there is nothing pointing to dragons being able to give complex orders and instructions (like how to perform magic).

Actually, in Awakening you fight Dragons capable of using blood magic. And given the whole Reaver being blood magic along with the Old Gods reputedly teaching the Tevinter Magisters blood magic -- though some scholars also surmise it was Arlathan's Elves that taught it originally -- and it seems to be a case of gameplay reflecting lore.

Could dragons do this? Sure, maybe, it is fantasy and we don't know what it's brain looks like, a wyvern could be contemplating the Jungian archetypes for all we know. With what has been shown, though, dragons are just portrayed as large beasts.

Yes, I agree there is doubt. There is always doubt, but that is because of lack of info, but the experience we do have, not just the ramblings of in-game scholars, shows nothing other than they are just beasts that are a bit unique since they can breathe fire and the blood is a life changing drug.

Well, the comics indicate that there's more to Dragons then people really think, saying that Dragons and Thedas are very interwoven into the latter being stable. Also, Yavana is able to calm down a High Dragon easily without using any magic, it seems.

That indicates an understanding of speech.

Indeed. And since most people simply want to hunt and kill dragons since it's assumed they are just stupid animals it's understandable the High Dragons attack everyone, not to mention they they butcher her babies as well. If I were a High Dragon I would be mad if people killed my kids.

Humans haven't really tried to endear themselves to dragons.

[TEWR]

Humans haven't really tried to endear themselves to dragons.

I imagine after the First Blight and Andraste's subsequent Exalted March on the Imperium, Dragons were hunted in great deal because of the whole "Old Gods are False Gods" dealio.

Which then, as you said, kinda made Dragons angry.

Also, it should be noted that eventually all High Dragons go to one point to die: Drake's Fall. Could that not be a case of intelligence when they all go to the same place?

[Daerog]

Ya, those dragon thralls were strange, I forgot about those.

Well, I guess that bumps them up to Ghast level.

[-TC1989-]

Since when did every medieval based game have to involve elemental dragons? I'm not bashing people who enjoy them, but to me personally dragons alone are very unique and interesting being just how they are.

[MisanthropePrime]

Also, it should be noted that eventually all High Dragons go to one point to die: Drake's Fall. Could that not be a case of intelligence when they all go to the same place?

By your logic salmon are intelligent because they return to their birthplace to spawn.

[Daerog]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Doesn't The Silent Grove discuss that the nature of the dragons is to be the blood of the world? I'd defer to someone else, as I haven't read the books myself.

If dragons serve some type of metaphysical purpose to the world, it could be said they are guided either by intelligence, or, perhaps, that their natural instincts are primal in nature in one aspect, but also tied to bring balance and equity to the natural world.

Besides, the Darkspawn horde in DA:O did a feint that diverted Eamon's forces away from Denerim. This implies understanding of military tactics, as well as concepts such as cities, capitals and deception. If we can believe that the Archdemon gave direction and controls the Darkspawn horde, how can one not say they are not intelligent?

Because the archdemon isn't a real dragon, it is an old god.

The "blood of the world" could hold many things, but doesn't mean that they are intelligent as spirits, humans, elves, and such are. They could just be tied to an ancient spell that shaped the Veil to begin with, if Yavana is speaking truth. They could just be like the dragons in ASoIaF, that they seem to make magic stronger, but are still beasts.

Perhaps they are greatly tied to the Fade, so more powerful magic can be used with them, and maybe be able to destroy the Veil, or if all the dragons are gone, it may make the Veil stronger and there would be no more mages, or many other things that are not thought of. Yavana could have just been crazy and just wanted a dragon army.

Edit: This could all be wrong of course, if BioWare says so.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 04 mars 2013 - 01:08 .

[TEWR]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Also, it should be noted that eventually all High Dragons go to one point to die: Drake's Fall. Could that not be a case of intelligence when they all go to the same place?

By your logic salmon are intelligent because they return to their birthplace to spawn.

Fair point.

EDIT: Though I personally believe that animals are intelligent. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mars 2013 - 01:08 .

[KiwiQuiche]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Humans haven't really tried to endear themselves to dragons.

I imagine after the First Blight and Andraste's subsequent Exalted March on the Imperium, Dragons were hunted in great deal because of the whole "Old Gods are False Gods" dealio.

Which then, as you said, kinda made Dragons angry.

Also, it should be noted that eventually all High Dragons go to one point to die: Drake's Fall. Could that not be a case of intelligence when they all go to the same place?

Indeed, and since dragons live so long, it would be obvious they have 'elephant memories' since pretty much every human tries to kill them. And those that do get along with dragons and live with them are usually called cultist and get killed by fellow humans.

Really? I didn't know about that. Maybe it's the place the Old Gods were born or something important to dragon culture.

But because they can't speak the way we do doesn't mean they're stupid.

[unbentbuzzkill]

if dragons truly have intelligence attacking everything that moves seems rather dumb. Wouldn't that just prove everyone right?

[Daerog]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

But because they can't speak the way we do doesn't mean they're stupid.

Well, I am avoiding calling any creature (besides certain humans) dumb or stupid, because those should just be words comparing a being to another being of the same species. I'm just saying their intelligence is likely not as complex as humans, elves, dwarves, spirits, and other such things.

[KiwiQuiche]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Doesn't The Silent Grove discuss that the nature of the dragons is to be the blood of the world? I'd defer to someone else, as I haven't read the books myself.

If dragons serve some type of metaphysical purpose to the world, it could be said they are guided either by intelligence, or, perhaps, that their natural instincts are primal in nature in one aspect, but also tied to bring balance and equity to the natural world.

Besides, the Darkspawn horde in DA:O did a feint that diverted Eamon's forces away from Denerim. This implies understanding of military tactics, as well as concepts such as cities, capitals and deception. If we can believe that the Archdemon gave direction and controls the Darkspawn horde, how can one not say they are not intelligent?

Because the archdemon isn't a real dragon, it is an old god.

The "blood of the world" could hold many things, but doesn't mean that they are intelligent as spirits, humans, elves, and such are. They could just be tied to an ancient spell that shaped the Veil to begin with, if Yavana is speaking truth. They could just be like the dragons in ASoIaF, that they seem to make magic stronger, but are still beasts.

Perhaps they are greatly tied to the Fade, so more powerful magic can be used with them, and maybe be able to destroy the Veil, or if all the dragons are gone, it may make the Veil stronger and there would be no more mages, or many other things that are not thought of. Yavana could have just been crazy and just wanted a dragon army.

Edit: This could all be wrong of course, if BioWare says so.

Old Gods could just be incredibly old, magical dragons hibernating, it's not proven they are actual gods, it's just religious crazies that claim they are false gods, despite them being literal proof while the Maker has never been seen baring some crazy mage lady who led an army and got burned to death due to said Maker being a useless husband.

Well, Yavana is Flemeth's daughter and Morrigan's sister so she is likely a nutcase with a dose of wisdom.

[KiwiQuiche]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

if dragons truly have intelligence attacking everything that moves seems rather dumb. Wouldn't that just prove everyone right?

Humans do the exact same thing to dragons.
And not to mention humans attack their own species as well. That seems rather dumb.