220 réponses à ce sujet

[Sulaco_7]

A 10% damage boost will make it good. To put it in perspective, it will have have the same DPS as a Harrier II (vs. armor). I can live with that.

[Ledgend1221]

It seems pointless for a Heavy weapon to be bad against armour and good against Shields.

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Reducing anything on the AIU besides duration would be fine. All decreasing duration would do is make people fight for grenades more than they already do, and make people run to far away ammo boxes for grenades and then dying halfway across the map. This will lead to either playing with 3 players, or an entire team running across the map to save one player and inevitably leading to a wipe. Hope I don't have to say goodbye to another class I like to play offensively...

[J4mes]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We have some significant changes planned for the Talon kit, some buffs for a couple other weapons and powers, and a nerf to Repair Matrix.

No plans to change Ascension Mode at this time. For that mode, we never intended for it to be a mode you keep on all the time and saw it more as a situational ability for some temporary extra offensive potential.

Please tell me you are fixing the Talon's unbinding keyboard controls on PC.

[Fang92]

Jovian09 wrote...

I got the Spitfire today and didn't think it was nearly as bad as some people were making out. Sure the damage isn't high, but it fires forever and is a great suppressive fire weapon, which fits in perfectly with the character philosophy of the Geth Juggernaut for whom it was intended.

I don't want to start an argument about classes, but you can't deny it feels like a completely badass weapon to fire.

A great suppressive weapon where enemies barely acknowledge you shooting them. But i agree, it does fit geth philosophy.

[Grunt_Platform]

Assuming the information on Cyonan's sheet is accurate, and that both the Spitfire and the Typhoon have large enough clips that we can reasonably assume they spend a significant time fully ramped up...

DPS for the N7 Typhoon and Geth Spitfire before and after a 10% buff, with no bonuses but a Magazine Upgrade and a High-Velocity Barrel. PPR and Harrier with same mods.
-Typhoon: Sustained - 767.86, vs. Armor - 1,048.02, vs. Shields 1151.79
-Spitfire : Sustained - 815.26, vs. Armor - 754.69, vs. Shields 1426.71
-,,Buffed : Sustained - 897.63, vs. Armor - 837.06 vs. Shields 1570.85
-Harrier..: Sustained - 880.08, vs. Armor - 846.10
-PPRifle : Sustained - 1,061.49, vs. Armor - 855.77

A few notes: I have not accounted for the tiny ammo capacities of the Harrier, or managing the recharge mechanic of the PPR, or its long charge up time. Clearly it has the best damage peaks but we know the issues it has staying there.

I'm not 100% clear on how ammo damage is calculated, so barrel + magazine mod + AP Ammo could be tilted more in the buffed Spitfire's favor (if it ignores ramp up multipliers, it'd put it close to the Typhoon's still superior damage.. but with much better DPS against everything else). Otherwise... Typhoon and PPR still beat it against armor.

Looking at the numbers, it is clear that 10% is the minimum damage buff the spitfire needs, though. It's a little too heavy to rely on shield stripping as a niche.

Modifié par EvanKester, 05 mars 2013 - 11:38 .

[Lathlaer]

EvanKester wrote...

Assuming the information on Cyonan's sheet is accurate, and that both the Spitfire and the Typhoon have large enough clips that we can reasonably assume they spend a significant time fully ramped up...

DPS for the N7 Typhoon and Geth Spitfire before and after a 10% buff, with no bonuses but a Magazine Upgrade and a High-Velocity Barrel. PPR and Harrier with same mods.
-Typhoon: Sustained - 767.86, vs. Armor - 1,048.02, vs. Shields 1151.79
-Spitfire : Sustained - 815.26, vs. Armor - 754.69, vs. Shields 1426.71
-..Buffed : Sustained - 897.63, vs. Armor - 837.06 vs. Shields 1570.85
-Harrier.. : Sustained - 880.08, vs. Armor - 846.10
-PPRifle : Sustained - 1,061.49, vs. Armor - 855.77

A few notes: I have not accounted for the tiny ammo capacities of the Harrier, or managing the recharge mechanic of the PPR, or its long charge up time. Clearly it has the best damage peaks but we know the issues it has staying there.

I'm not 100% clear on how ammo damage is calculated, so barrel + magazine mod + AP Ammo could be tilted more in the buffed Spitfire's favor (if it ignores ramp up multipliers, it'd put it close to the Typhoon's still superior damage.. but with much better DPS against everything else).

Looking at the numbers, it is clear that 10% is the minimum damage buff the spitfire needs, though. It's a little too heavy to rely on shield stripping as a niche.

You also have to account for: 1) PPR's pinpoint accuracy, 2) Harrier's near pinpoint accuracy 3) Better stability on both of the guns 3) Spitfire's weight and the fact that it slows you down.

After considering everything, I would be happy with a 20% buff

[Grunt_Platform]

Lathlaer wrote...

You also have to account for: 1) PPR's pinpoint accuracy, 2) Harrier's near pinpoint accuracy 3) Better stability on both of the guns 3) Spitfire's weight and the fact that it slows you down.

After considering everything, I would be happy with a 20% buff

Worth noting. Though given the other handicaps those weapons have, it's fair to say the N7 Typhoon to Spitfire comparison is the most important one.

But considering everything else working against it... yeah. 20% would give the Spitfire some of the best all around damage in the game. Which, as the most cumbersome gun in the game, seems kinda fair. There might be a reasonable middle ground there though.

[Silent Indignation]

EvanKester wrote...
But considering everything else working against it... yeah. 20% would give the Spitfire some of the best all around damage in the game. Which, as the most cumbersome gun in the game, seems kinda fair. There might be a reasonable middle ground there though.

15%?

LAWL

[Rip The Reaper]

Hey Eric any chance we get chakram launcher in next balance changes?

[Grunt_Platform]

Silent Indignation wrote...

15%?

LAWL

Or 10% with buffs to other areas. There's lots of dials on weapon balance.

[Spyrothedragon9972]

Jovian09 wrote...

I got the Spitfire today and didn't think it was nearly as bad as some people were making out. Sure the damage isn't high, but it fires forever and is a great suppressive fire weapon, which fits in perfectly with the character philosophy of the Geth Juggernaut for whom it was intended.

I don't want to start an argument about classes, but you can't deny it feels like a completely badass weapon to fire.

It should feel like a badass weapon to fire, but it doesn't

[Xaijin]

EvanKester wrote...

Assuming the information on Cyonan's sheet is accurate, and that both the Spitfire and the Typhoon have large enough clips that we can reasonably assume they spend a significant time fully ramped up...

DPS for the N7 Typhoon and Geth Spitfire before and after a 10% buff, with no bonuses but a Magazine Upgrade and a High-Velocity Barrel. PPR and Harrier with same mods.
-Typhoon: Sustained - 767.86, vs. Armor - 1,048.02, vs. Shields 1151.79
-Spitfire : Sustained - 815.26, vs. Armor - 754.69, vs. Shields 1426.71
-,,Buffed : Sustained - 897.63, vs. Armor - 837.06 vs. Shields 1570.85
-Harrier..: Sustained - 880.08, vs. Armor - 846.10
-PPRifle : Sustained - 1,061.49, vs. Armor - 855.77

A few notes: I have not accounted for the tiny ammo capacities of the Harrier, or managing the recharge mechanic of the PPR, or its long charge up time. Clearly it has the best damage peaks but we know the issues it has staying there.

I'm not 100% clear on how ammo damage is calculated, so barrel + magazine mod + AP Ammo could be tilted more in the buffed Spitfire's favor (if it ignores ramp up multipliers, it'd put it close to the Typhoon's still superior damage.. but with much better DPS against everything else). Otherwise... Typhoon and PPR still beat it against armor.

Looking at the numbers, it is clear that 10% is the minimum damage buff the spitfire needs, though. It's a little too heavy to rely on shield stripping as a niche.

It's a little goofy to think that the race bascially building the best or near best weapons available to any race would ignore armor, ESPECIALLY on the heavy weapon when all of their heavy units are in fact armored.

I don't think the Chewbacca defense is gonna work here, and the buff should be higher than 10%, given the role of the weapon, it's rarity and it's power to weight ratio.

[Dabal Hayat]

I've to agree: 20% buff to the base damage of the Spitfire is a must to create a competitive weapon.
As things are IMO, the only niche for the Spitfire is with a flamerless trooper (I prefer the Typhoon for the Juggernaut), but only because ROF and accuracy are boosted from hunter mode.
DAT 396/750 bullets in full auto...

[underm1nd]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We have some significant changes planned for the Talon kit, some buffs for a couple other weapons and powers, and a nerf to Repair Matrix.

No plans to change Ascension Mode at this time. For that mode, we never intended for it to be a mode you keep on all the time and saw it more as a situational ability for some temporary extra offensive potential.

I hope there wont be any other nerfs. And how about some love for the cabal and the awakened? All the cabal needs is a better dot imo, to make her exceptional because the way she is right now she is kind of an underperformer and the collector is again a bit of an underperformer although i have no idea whats wrong with him, on paper he is perfect.

[Grunt_Platform]

Xaijin wrote...

It's a little goofy to think that the race bascially building the best or near best weapons available to any race would ignore armor, ESPECIALLY on the heavy weapon when all of their heavy units are in fact armored.

I don't think the Chewbacca defense is gonna work here, and the buff should be higher than 10%, given the role of the weapon, it's rarity and it's power to weight ratio.

Agreed, actually.

Took a look at damage calculation for ammo damage and that won't save the Spitfire—which means a 10% buff won't be anywhere near sufficient if it's meant to be good against bosses on Gold+.

Even after a 20% buff it would fare worse against armor than the Typhoon.. but at least it wouldn't be by such a large margin, and would be beating out the Harrier and Particle Rifle.

10% is the minimum buff that would make any meaningful difference in its performance.

Modifié par EvanKester, 06 mars 2013 - 03:47 .

[billy the squid]

Xaijin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Assuming the information on Cyonan's sheet is accurate, and that both the Spitfire and the Typhoon have large enough clips that we can reasonably assume they spend a significant time fully ramped up...

DPS for the N7 Typhoon and Geth Spitfire before and after a 10% buff, with no bonuses but a Magazine Upgrade and a High-Velocity Barrel. PPR and Harrier with same mods.
-Typhoon: Sustained - 767.86, vs. Armor - 1,048.02, vs. Shields 1151.79
-Spitfire : Sustained - 815.26, vs. Armor - 754.69, vs. Shields 1426.71
-,,Buffed : Sustained - 897.63, vs. Armor - 837.06 vs. Shields 1570.85
-Harrier..: Sustained - 880.08, vs. Armor - 846.10
-PPRifle : Sustained - 1,061.49, vs. Armor - 855.77

A few notes: I have not accounted for the tiny ammo capacities of the Harrier, or managing the recharge mechanic of the PPR, or its long charge up time. Clearly it has the best damage peaks but we know the issues it has staying there.

I'm not 100% clear on how ammo damage is calculated, so barrel + magazine mod + AP Ammo could be tilted more in the buffed Spitfire's favor (if it ignores ramp up multipliers, it'd put it close to the Typhoon's still superior damage.. but with much better DPS against everything else). Otherwise... Typhoon and PPR still beat it against armor.

Looking at the numbers, it is clear that 10% is the minimum damage buff the spitfire needs, though. It's a little too heavy to rely on shield stripping as a niche.

It's a little goofy to think that the race bascially building the best or near best weapons available to any race would ignore armor, ESPECIALLY on the heavy weapon when all of their heavy units are in fact armored.

I don't think the Chewbacca defense is gonna work here, and the buff should be higher than 10%, given the role of the weapon, it's rarity and it's power to weight ratio.

The issue here is, are the drawbacks on the Spitfire enough to make people choose it over it's nearest competitor the Typhoon. At the moment nope. Harrier, meh it's a different kind of weapon, allows classes to be more mobile having seen a Spitfire on a destroyer vs collectors gold... yeah no class other than the Jugger is going to get the most out of it.

The PPR does everything better than the Spitfire but you need the extended mag, it's a must so it tends to suffer in terms of armour pen. vs the Typhoon and the Harrier, which can benefit from the HVB or Pierce mod. and still have the option to go for extended mags/ EB

I think 10% might be enough if one can combine the pierce mod with the EB on the Spitfire. It's got a huge magazine, ammo reserve and a good rate of fire. I'm not sure that extended mag is worth it over pierce and EB and either Incendiary or AP ammo considering it's major drawback is armour. Pierce and AP ammo effectively negates the armour. That's something I'd like to test when it gets buffed.

Edit:

Did anyone account for the Geth weapon boost for putting the Spitfire on the Jugger or Trooper?

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Dorick]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We have some significant changes planned for the Talon kit, some buffs for a couple other weapons and powers, and a nerf to Repair Matrix.

No plans to change Ascension Mode at this time. For that mode, we never intended for it to be a mode you keep on all the time and saw it more as a situational ability for some temporary extra offensive potential.

Glad you are buffing the talon, activating arrows vs Cain mines is just silly right now. 

Thanks in advance for nerfing repair matrix. I like this character and dont want to feel like I'm doing a good job just because the kit is OP. Even if you removed that power altogther, between snap freeze + cloak + agility she is distinctly better than many other kits ever will be. 

[Stardusk]

PLEASE FIX TALON KEY BINDING, THANK YOU

[Grunt_Platform]

billy the squid wrote...

Did anyone account for the Geth weapon boost for putting the Spitfire on the Jugger or Trooper?

I don't think so, but it's pretty easy to do.

For a Geth Juggernaut (27.5% weapon damage, 5% damage multiplier), using HVB and magazine upgrade:
- Geth Spitfire: 1,091.43, vs. Armor:  1,030.86, vs. Shields 1910.00
- Buffed Spitfire: 1,201.71, vs. Armor: 1,141.14, vs. Shields 2102.99
- N7 Typhoon: 979.02, vs. Armor: 1,364.76, vs. Shields 1468.53

Geth Trooper (speed and vision;  22.5% weapon damage, 10% damage multiplier, +7.5% hunter mode. +15% ROF)
- Geth Spitfire: 1,322.55, vs. Armor:  1,253.84, vs. Shields 2314.46
- Buffed Spitfire: 1,456.18, vs. Armor: 1,387.47, vs. Shields 2548.31
- N7 Typhoon: 1,122.91, vs. Armor: 1,567.64, vs. Shields 1684.36

Geth Trooper (Damage, same as above but +10% weapon damage)
- Geth Spitfire: 1,424.28, Vs. Armor: 1,355.57, vs. Shields 2492.49
- Buffed Spitfire: 1,568.19, Vs. Armor: 1,499.48, vs. Shields 2744.33
- N7 Typhoon: 1,209.29, Vs. Armor: 1,697.21, vs. Shields 1813.93

There's still a significant gap between the Spitfire and the Typhoon against armor.

ETA: Geth Trooper (specced for damage) using  a Spitfire with barrel & AP mod:
- Current: 1,549.96, vs. Armor: 1,327.90, vs. Shields: 2712.43
- Buffed : 1,706.57, vs. Armor: 1,484.51, vs. Shields: 2986.49
- N7 Typhoon: 1,257.12, vs. Armor: 1,525.33 vs. Shields 1885.68

EDIT2: Looking at it, the EB+AP combo on the spitfire does help a lot more than you'd expect, provided you're using some ammo other than AP Ammo.

Modifié par EvanKester, 06 mars 2013 - 03:59 .

[BlackDahlia424]

The Typhoon is supposed to be better against armor - it's supposed to be the best anti-armor AR in the game. A Spitfire buffed by 10% and including the Geth weapon bonus passive, will have much higher damage against Shields and Barriers and higher health damage.

So the Typhoon will still be better for Platinum, but I will remind everyone that the game is not balanced around Platinum. The Spitfire would perform better against both Cerberus and Geth, while the Typhoon would perform better against the Reapers and Collectors (on Gold). That seems balanced to me.

[Xaijin]

billy the squid wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Assuming the information on Cyonan's sheet is accurate, and that both the Spitfire and the Typhoon have large enough clips that we can reasonably assume they spend a significant time fully ramped up...

DPS for the N7 Typhoon and Geth Spitfire before and after a 10% buff, with no bonuses but a Magazine Upgrade and a High-Velocity Barrel. PPR and Harrier with same mods.
-Typhoon: Sustained - 767.86, vs. Armor - 1,048.02, vs. Shields 1151.79
-Spitfire : Sustained - 815.26, vs. Armor - 754.69, vs. Shields 1426.71
-,,Buffed : Sustained - 897.63, vs. Armor - 837.06 vs. Shields 1570.85
-Harrier..: Sustained - 880.08, vs. Armor - 846.10
-PPRifle : Sustained - 1,061.49, vs. Armor - 855.77

A few notes: I have not accounted for the tiny ammo capacities of the Harrier, or managing the recharge mechanic of the PPR, or its long charge up time. Clearly it has the best damage peaks but we know the issues it has staying there.

I'm not 100% clear on how ammo damage is calculated, so barrel + magazine mod + AP Ammo could be tilted more in the buffed Spitfire's favor (if it ignores ramp up multipliers, it'd put it close to the Typhoon's still superior damage.. but with much better DPS against everything else). Otherwise... Typhoon and PPR still beat it against armor.

Looking at the numbers, it is clear that 10% is the minimum damage buff the spitfire needs, though. It's a little too heavy to rely on shield stripping as a niche.

It's a little goofy to think that the race bascially building the best or near best weapons available to any race would ignore armor, ESPECIALLY on the heavy weapon when all of their heavy units are in fact armored.

I don't think the Chewbacca defense is gonna work here, and the buff should be higher than 10%, given the role of the weapon, it's rarity and it's power to weight ratio.

The issue here is, are the drawbacks on the Spitfire enough to make people choose it over it's nearest competitor the Typhoon. At the moment nope. Harrier, meh it's a different kind of weapon, allows classes to be more mobile having seen a Spitfire on a destroyer vs collectors gold... yeah no class other than the Jugger is going to get the most out of it.

The PPR does everything better than the Spitfire but you need the extended mag, it's a must so it tends to suffer in terms of armour pen. vs the Typhoon and the Harrier, which can benefit from the HVB or Pierce mod. and still have the option to go for extended mags/ EB

I think 10% might be enough if one can combine the pierce mod with the EB on the Spitfire. It's got a huge magazine, ammo reserve and a good rate of fire. I'm not sure that extended mag is worth it over pierce and EB and either Incendiary or AP ammo considering it's major drawback is armour. Pierce and AP ammo effectively negates the armour. That's something I'd like to test when it gets buffed.

Edit:

Did anyone account for the Geth weapon boost for putting the Spitfire on the Jugger or Trooper?

Yes gethiness was tken into account.

[Mgamerz]

The spitfire also has a very large clip (huge) so you barely ever have to reload it seems in the middle of a battle. The typhoon doesn't get that luxury.

[Grunt_Platform]

After the buff, it would be worth comparing the Spitfire with Incendiary IV to the Typhoon with AP IV. The Spitfire has a much higher rate of fire, so it should get some really nice incendiary stacks.

[ntrisley]

Mgamerz wrote...

The spitfire also has a very large clip (huge) so you barely ever have to reload it seems in the middle of a battle. The typhoon doesn't get that luxury.

Which is idiotic on both accounts.

The Typhoon, Revenant, and Spitfire should not have "clips". They should just have an ammunition pool and fire from within that.