102 réponses à ce sujet

[swjobson]

lightswitch wrote...

The thing about glass cannons (Drell, Geth, Fury are the ones that come to mind) is they normally have a lot of speed, agility, good CC powers, and quick animations to make up for their squishiness. Collector Adept doesn't exactly fit that mold.

Thats why the current balance of ascension is better for weapon builds. When you consider the 22.5% weapon passive, 10% multiplier if you use C/P weapons, plus 25% from a weapon mod, then the 25% ascension bonus seems reasonable (almost 90% when properly combined, and that doesnt include equipment). If you're doing a caster build then spec training for 65% power bonus and forget fitness.

[MrAsmodai]

i'll sign for a toggle, sounds reasonable.

[me0120]

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

You are assuming everyone knows how to execute glass cannon builds. This is not even a glass cannon build, it's more of a kamikaze build except there is no actual kamikaze potential. It is also unwise to compare his damage potential to infiltrators when inflitrators can surpass 40% while maintaing vast survivability and elusiveness.  If the max damage output was more like 60% the severe damage penalty would be valid. 


Either increase the damage potential to to make the severe sacrifice worth it. Or remove the damage penalty and slightly lower the max damage output to compensate. 



EDIT: I just re-checked the stats. Max damage output is only 25%. 25% is barely even noticable and does not give a substantial enough boost to justify -40% damage penalty. 40 max damage in exhange for 40 damage penalty would be more "fair". This seriously needs to be re-worked.

First, my refutation.

I never assumed everyone knows how to use glass cannons, nor did I say that anywhere. I did not compare the Collectors damage to Infiltrators in any of my posts. 

Second, my rebuttals.

I personally don't like comparing the Collector and his Ascension to other character but I will anyway. The nearest thing to Ascension is of course Hunter Mode, however since Hunter Mode is a power all in itself it allows more customizations. Hunter Mode reduces shields but forces the user to choose (for the most part) weapon bonus (1) power bonus (2) or power recharge speed (3). Of course there are others but those are the main ones for DPS. 

Now to look at Ascension: it gives you all three of those categories (weapon bonus, power bonus, power recharge speed) without the need to choose. In-turn they all come at the price of increased damage taken, which can either be 20% or 40% depending on the person's preference. This already seems fair on paper but Ascension doesn't take up a power, greatly adding to the class as a "hidden 4th power". 

To your point that the damage taken outweighs the positives it must be noted that the 40% damage taken at max can be offset by Seeker Swarms reducing damage up to 40%. The real question is, why if you are complaining about taking damage do you neglect the opportunity to increase health and shields to take the extra damage? It seems counterintuitive to your plan of survival since you can increase weapon bonuses, power bonuses, and power recharge speed and still have a +20% damage reduction from Seeker Swarms.


I said it before but I'll say it again. The Collector allows people to choose whether it is a glass cannon or a standard character, and anywhere inbetween. 
P.S. that was much more fun than "The AIU and TGI invalidate this arguement." I prefer for an argument to at least be constructive.

[Dylan Dogood]

Toggle.

[SavagelyEpic]

me0120 wrote...

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

You are assuming everyone knows how to execute glass cannon builds. This is not even a glass cannon build, it's more of a kamikaze build except there is no actual kamikaze potential. It is also unwise to compare his damage potential to infiltrators when inflitrators can surpass 40% while maintaing vast survivability and elusiveness.  If the max damage output was more like 60% the severe damage penalty would be valid. 


Either increase the damage potential to to make the severe sacrifice worth it. Or remove the damage penalty and slightly lower the max damage output to compensate. 



EDIT: I just re-checked the stats. Max damage output is only 25%. 25% is barely even noticable and does not give a substantial enough boost to justify -40% damage penalty. 40 max damage in exhange for 40 damage penalty would be more "fair". This seriously needs to be re-worked.

First, my refutation.

I never assumed everyone knows how to use glass cannons, nor did I say that anywhere. I did not compare the Collectors damage to Infiltrators in any of my posts. 

Second, my rebuttals.

I personally don't like comparing the Collector and his Ascension to other character but I will anyway. The nearest thing to Ascension is of course Hunter Mode, however since Hunter Mode is a power all in itself it allows more customizations. Hunter Mode reduces shields but forces the user to choose (for the most part) weapon bonus (1) power bonus (2) or power recharge speed (3). Of course there are others but those are the main ones for DPS. 

Now to look at Ascension: it gives you all three of those categories (weapon bonus, power bonus, power recharge speed) without the need to choose. In-turn they all come at the price of increased damage taken, which can either be 20% or 40% depending on the person's preference. This already seems fair on paper but Ascension doesn't take up a power, greatly adding to the class as a "hidden 4th power". 

To your point that the damage taken outweighs the positives it must be noted that the 40% damage taken at max can be offset by Seeker Swarms reducing damage up to 40%. The real question is, why if you are complaining about taking damage do you neglect the opportunity to increase health and shields to take the extra damage? It seems counterintuitive to your plan of survival since you can increase weapon bonuses, power bonuses, and power recharge speed and still have a +20% damage reduction from Seeker Swarms.


I said it before but I'll say it again. The Collector allows people to choose whether it is a glass cannon or a standard character, and anywhere inbetween. 
P.S. that was much more fun than "The AIU and TGI invalidate this arguement." I prefer for an argument to at least be constructive.

That assumes that you're never going to cast your seekers, which already lowers his less-than-impressive damage output,

And the player is simply never given a choice whether to be a glass cannon or anything else. I don't think you're aware that the definition of glass cannon means high frailty but an overwhelming offense. Hence, "glass cannon". The choice is not to be a glass cannon, it is simply to be made of glass with regards to the clocktor.

[Original Twigman]

SavagelyEpic wrote...

me0120 wrote...

xSNPx ZoDiaC wrote...

You are assuming everyone knows how to execute glass cannon builds. This is not even a glass cannon build, it's more of a kamikaze build except there is no actual kamikaze potential. It is also unwise to compare his damage potential to infiltrators when inflitrators can surpass 40% while maintaing vast survivability and elusiveness.  If the max damage output was more like 60% the severe damage penalty would be valid. 


Either increase the damage potential to to make the severe sacrifice worth it. Or remove the damage penalty and slightly lower the max damage output to compensate. 



EDIT: I just re-checked the stats. Max damage output is only 25%. 25% is barely even noticable and does not give a substantial enough boost to justify -40% damage penalty. 40 max damage in exhange for 40 damage penalty would be more "fair". This seriously needs to be re-worked.

First, my refutation.

I never assumed everyone knows how to use glass cannons, nor did I say that anywhere. I did not compare the Collectors damage to Infiltrators in any of my posts. 

Second, my rebuttals.

I personally don't like comparing the Collector and his Ascension to other character but I will anyway. The nearest thing to Ascension is of course Hunter Mode, however since Hunter Mode is a power all in itself it allows more customizations. Hunter Mode reduces shields but forces the user to choose (for the most part) weapon bonus (1) power bonus (2) or power recharge speed (3). Of course there are others but those are the main ones for DPS. 

Now to look at Ascension: it gives you all three of those categories (weapon bonus, power bonus, power recharge speed) without the need to choose. In-turn they all come at the price of increased damage taken, which can either be 20% or 40% depending on the person's preference. This already seems fair on paper but Ascension doesn't take up a power, greatly adding to the class as a "hidden 4th power". 

To your point that the damage taken outweighs the positives it must be noted that the 40% damage taken at max can be offset by Seeker Swarms reducing damage up to 40%. The real question is, why if you are complaining about taking damage do you neglect the opportunity to increase health and shields to take the extra damage? It seems counterintuitive to your plan of survival since you can increase weapon bonuses, power bonuses, and power recharge speed and still have a +20% damage reduction from Seeker Swarms.


I said it before but I'll say it again. The Collector allows people to choose whether it is a glass cannon or a standard character, and anywhere inbetween. 
P.S. that was much more fun than "The AIU and TGI invalidate this arguement." I prefer for an argument to at least be constructive.

That assumes that you're never going to cast your seekers, which already lowers his less-than-impressive damage output,

And the player is simply never given a choice whether to be a glass cannon or anything else. I don't think you're aware that the definition of glass cannon means high frailty but an overwhelming offense. Hence, "glass cannon". The choice is not to be a glass cannon, it is simply to be made of glass with regards to the clocktor.

A single DS + DC (instant after the DS) + detonation will eradicate a mook spawn, and some dragoons, phantoms, hunters, etc...

Its a very powerful class.

[lightswitch]

Original Stikman wrote...

A single DS + DC (instant after the DS) + detonation will eradicate a mook spawn, and some dragoons, phantoms, hunters, etc...

Its a very powerful class.

Low level mooks, sure, but I don't believe you about the dragoons, phantoms and hunters. Maybe with some BEs afterwards. What's your build?

[me0120]

SavagelyEpic wrote...

That assumes that you're never going to cast your seekers, which already lowers his less-than-impressive damage output,

And the player is simply never given a choice whether to be a glass cannon or anything else. I don't think you're aware that the definition of glass cannon means high frailty but an overwhelming offense. Hence, "glass cannon". The choice is not to be a glass cannon, it is simply to be made of glass with regards to the clocktor.

Or it assumes that you'll turn Seeker Swarms on right after you use them all, which is possible thanks to the design. Also note-worthy is the ability to fire of powers while waiting on the Seeker Swarm animation to complete and then the Seeker Swarm cooldown overwriting whatever power you just used. 

As Stikman said, he can do a lot of damage. It's a hard routine to get down but very effective, with a good overall Collector/Prothean weapon damage to take down bosses. He wasn't designed to be easy to play.

[Original Twigman]

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

A single DS + DC (instant after the DS) + detonation will eradicate a mook spawn, and some dragoons, phantoms, hunters, etc...

Its a very powerful class.

Low level mooks, sure, but I don't believe you about the dragoons, phantoms and hunters. Maybe with some BEs afterwards. What's your build?

here

maxed all power damage, all "melee" evolutions for fitness. this time i went all radius for DS. Standard DC (damage, slow, Barriers) + adaptive war amp, SMG III, Warp IV, and Power amp IV.

This is on platinum.

I would launch a DS, DC right after, shoot as i detonate the DS. It would take care of low levels, then the DOT + a few CSMG shots would clean up the rest, very quickly. I would prioritize DC targets. Typically the phantoms would be taken down to less than half health before i even shot.

Unfortunately, with phantoms, they have a tendancie to put up their bubble, despite you not targeting them during detonation.

Also, i always shoot DS at the ground so it goes where i want rather than passing the enemies (not sure if people do that or not).

With the passives, you already get 65% power bonus... then 50% from power amp, then another 40% from ascencion mode, and another with the CSMG power amp....

here are the numbers from Narida

Explosion Damage: 3521= 1100 (base value)+20% (220) Dark Sphere 3[/i] (updated with 40% ascension mode bonus)
+10% (110) Vengeful Ancient 1[/i]
+10% (110) Vengeful Ancient 3[/i]
+10% (110) Vengeful Ancient 4[/i]
+15% (165) Vengeful Ancient 5[/i]
+20% (220) Vengeful Ancient 6[/i]
+30% (330) Power Magnifier V
+50% (550) Power Amplifier Module IV[/i]
+15% (165) Adaptive War Amp V[/i]
+15% (165) Ancient Warrior: Damage Bonus  Apparently this is supposed to be 40... so that adds 440 instead of 165 (added to total)

Then take in the Dark Channel Damage:

[/i]243.75/121.88/918.83/639.84   <-----bolded is Barrier damage (updated with barrier damage bonus only)
[/i]= 75/37.5/262.5/196.88 (base value)+20% (15/7.5/52.5/39.38) Dark Channel 3[/i]
+30% (22.5/11.25/78.75/59.06) Dark Channel 4[/i]
+10% (7.5/3.75/26.25/19.69) Vengeful Ancient 1[/i]
+10% (7.5/3.75/26.25/19.69) Vengeful Ancient 3[/i]
+10% (7.5/3.75/26.25/19.69) Vengeful Ancient 4[/i]
+15% (11.25/5.63/39.38/29.53) Vengeful Ancient 5[/i]
+20% (15/7.5/52.5/39.38) Vengeful Ancient 6[/i]
+30% (22.5/11.25/78.75/59.06) Power Magnifier V
+50% (37.5/18.75/131.25/98.44) Power Amplifier Module IV[/i]
+15% (11.25/5.63/39.38/29.53) Adaptive War Amp V[/i]
+15% (11.250000000000002/5.63/39.38/29.53) Ancient Warrior: Damage Bonus + 40% (30/15/105/78.75)

[/i]Enough to take out most enemies[/i] with that combo. So... theoretically, if you had a phantom, dragoon, centurian, and two assault troopers on platinum, you would wipe out the two assault troopers, stagger the centurian and dragoon while the DOT finsihed off the centurian, shoot the phantom a few times before finishing off the Dragoon.

5 enemies dead with one cycle.

also, factor in that I am doing about 104 damage per shot of my CSMG VIII with warp rounds.... so they go down fast. especialy with dem headshots
[/i]
[/i][/i]

Modifié par Original Stikman, 05 mars 2013 - 06:52 .

[Learn To Love Yourself]

Hey Stik, even though you ruined my marriage with your velvety voice and silky touch, I'll add some thoughts:

So, as I mentioned somewhere sometime, I respec'd to a 6/6/6/6/0 build. Although I miss the damage bonuses I get from Ascension Mode, I didn't miss the annoyance. The way I figured it, it was left off at least 1/3 of the time.

Anyway, I am happy with this build, and I didn't notice much less damage, since I was able to reach the next spawn much more quickly without having to have to pause and re-enter Ascension Mode.

IMO, if you're using the CSMG, the weapon damage bonus in the 6th rank of the Passives are a must (if not just a great asset).

[X-Frame]

Stikman, also note that Rank 5 and 6 if Ascension Stance don't seem to be working in Narida's Builder yet so you could add some power damage even moreso than you did.

[Original Twigman]

Jack Crapper wrote...

Hey Stik, even though you ruined my marriage with your velvety voice and silky touch, I'll add some thoughts:

So, as I mentioned somewhere sometime, I respec'd to a 6/6/6/6/0 build. Although I miss the damage bonuses I get from Ascension Mode, I didn't miss the annoyance. The way I figured it, it was left off at least 1/3 of the time.

Anyway, I am happy with this build, and I didn't notice much less damage, since I was able to reach the next spawn much more quickly without having to have to pause and re-enter Ascension Mode.

IMO, if you're using the CSMG, the weapon damage bonus in the 6th rank of the Passives are a must (if not just a great asset).

Well, i have been called the Barry White of my generation... however, i have since grown a severe fondness for crack i have been breaking up wholesome marriages for my willingness to do whatever it takes to get my next fix...

whatever.... it takes....


ANYWAY, the build i am using is pretty temporary. with such versatility, i am looking to do a build like yours next; utilizing seeker swarm... there are about 2-3 more variations i want to try in order to find dat der sweet spot. is that last rank in passives a 5% collector weapon bonus? ( i can't see narida right now cuz i am at work and it doesn't work with the browser)

[Original Twigman]

X-Frame wrote...

Stikman, also note that Rank 5 and 6 if Ascension Stance don't seem to be working in Narida's Builder yet so you could add some power damage even moreso than you did.

interdasting.

I am not too big on numbers, personally.. I'll usually take it in game before i start looking at figures, but thanks for letting me know.

I am overall, disappointed with ascension mode, as I wish i could get more out of it rather than just a single spawn "nuke" before  it wears off.

A 200% increase in duration would be really nice.

[Original Twigman]

i am dissapointed Eric Fagnan commented on players requesting for a toggle/permanent Ascension mode when I have been addressing a request for just a slight increase in duration.

Duration is more reasonable than toggle.

[lightswitch]

Original Stikman wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

A single DS + DC (instant after the DS) + detonation will eradicate a mook spawn, and some dragoons, phantoms, hunters, etc...

Its a very powerful class.

Low level mooks, sure, but I don't believe you about the dragoons, phantoms and hunters. Maybe with some BEs afterwards. What's your build?

I would launch a DS, DC right after, shoot as i detonate the DS. It would take care of low levels, then the DOT + a few CSMG shots would clean up the rest, very quickly. I would prioritize DC targets. Typically the phantoms would be taken down to less than half health before i even shot.

Okay, see that's more in line with my expectations.

[Dalakaar]

They've already stated they don't want the ability to function as a toggle but more of a momentary damage buff.

I can see their reasoning and like it, but the execution obviously leaves something to be desired. The rub, as it were, I think lay in the fact that it's tied to your heavy melee. Keeping it fairly short but losing the overly long animation would fix much of the problem.

It's not really meant to just be left on, but more of a wind up. The problem is any time I actually want the damage buff is so situational and sporadic that I just wind up trying to keep it up all the time. (Which is why people want it as a toggle.)

Something's got to give.

[Original Twigman]

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

A single DS + DC (instant after the DS) + detonation will eradicate a mook spawn, and some dragoons, phantoms, hunters, etc...

Its a very powerful class.

Low level mooks, sure, but I don't believe you about the dragoons, phantoms and hunters. Maybe with some BEs afterwards. What's your build?

I would launch a DS, DC right after, shoot as i detonate the DS. It would take care of low levels, then the DOT + a few CSMG shots would clean up the rest, very quickly. I would prioritize DC targets. Typically the phantoms would be taken down to less than half health before i even shot.

Okay, see that's more in line with my expectations.

If i took the other evoution on rank 6 for DS (5. something radius) it could almost kill a phantom outright... but it would probably miss hitting the dragoons/mooks. It would be some 4600 damage depending on how fast you detonate it.

[Original Twigman]

Dala Kaar wrote...

They've already stated they don't want the ability to function as a toggle but more of a momentary damage buff.

I can see their reasoning and like it, but the execution obviously leaves something to be desired. The rub, as it were, I think lay in the fact that it's tied to your heavy melee. Keeping it fairly short but losing the overly long animation would fix much of the problem.

It's not really meant to just be left on, but more of a wind up. The problem is any time I actually want the damage buff is so situational and sporadic that I just wind up trying to keep it up all the time. (Which is why people want it as a toggle.)

Something's got to give.

.... where are you getting that i asked for a toggle?

thats the problem... apparently duration increase = toggle

[Arctican]

The bonus damage is not that attractive to activate in the middle of battle when you want to do spike damage. I propose a bigger bonus with an even steeper penalty to truly make it a glass cannon option. For example, something along the lines of 40% bonus damage+40% recharge speed with taking in 60% to 80% bonus damage.

Modifié par Arctican, 05 mars 2013 - 07:55 .

[monkeyhunter]

lightswitch wrote...

monkeyhunter wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

Yes, toggle.

Not gonna work. People with max DR specced swarms would have an easy time maintaining a very fast cooldown and extra damage.

What's wrong with that? Still wouldn't be as OP as an immortal infiltrator, still wouldn't be able to outpace a Fury. Plus those people would essentially be sacrifing their ability to set off BEs.

Edit: I agree with people who say the DR should be halved or removed, you already have to sacrifice fitness in order to max ascension mode. The 40% damage increase is just insane.

2nd edit: Also not taking into account that an Ascension mode build would be focused on maxing direct power damage, 6/0/6/6/6, in which case you would want all six evos in Dark Channel and all six evos of passives for power damage.

I'm all for a toggle, or 300% duration increase, or anything that makes it more useable.

Because that way they can have all the benefits of ascension mode without the downside.
I said it before and the 30 second timer saved my *ss multiple times. Say a banshee warp ball hits you and you're between 20-30 seconds in, instead of forcing you to turn it off (which everyone's toggling and time extending requests would do), you can just take cover and keep fighting or maneuvring in a pinch.

If it would turn into toggling only, the first thing someone is gonna whine about is to make it turn off automatically when getting downed.

[Dalakaar]

So the quotes failed, anyways...

You're assuming that I'm assuming that I'm talking about you. People in this post have asked for a toggle, not necessarily you.

You sure you don't want a toggle?

... Commooooon.

Modifié par Dala Kaar, 05 mars 2013 - 08:00 .

[Original Twigman]

Arctican wrote...

The bonus damage is not that attractive to activate in the middle of battle when you want to do spike damage. I propose a bigger bonus with an even steeper penalty to truly make it a glass cannon option. For example, something along the lines of 40% bonus damage+40% recharge speed with taking in 60% to 80% bonus damage.

I am pretty sure it already gets a 40% damage bonus

[monkeyhunter]

Original Stikman wrote...

Arctican wrote...

The bonus damage is not that attractive to activate in the middle of battle when you want to do spike damage. I propose a bigger bonus with an even steeper penalty to truly make it a glass cannon option. For example, something along the lines of 40% bonus damage+40% recharge speed with taking in 60% to 80% bonus damage.

I am pretty sure it already gets a 40% damage bonus

+25% power damage
+25% power recharge speed
at the cost of  40% damage taken increase

edit: so basicly you get 50% at the cost of 40% and all that by doing a little 3 second animation.

Modifié par monkeyhunter, 05 mars 2013 - 08:07 .

[Dalakaar]

I find that I just always have it running, every 30 seconds I duck a corner, rub one out, get green all over, and get back to splooshing enemies in even more evil green goo.

This is *not* the intended way for it to play out, I get that, but as it stands it's more viable than trying to pull that crap off in the middle of battle with a glass cannon who's greatest asset is mobility. (Cause damn those little wings rock)

Leap forward, dark sphere, leap back, as you're moving backwards dark channel, seeker swarm, boom. Lots of fun for the family.

[Arctican]

Original Stikman wrote...

Arctican wrote...

The bonus damage is not that attractive to activate in the middle of battle when you want to do spike damage. I propose a bigger bonus with an even steeper penalty to truly make it a glass cannon option. For example, something along the lines of 40% bonus damage+40% recharge speed with taking in 60% to 80% bonus damage.

I am pretty sure it already gets a 40% damage bonus

I'm looking at both Mass Effect wiki and narida. I'm seeing 25% damage bonus, 25% recharge speed, and 40% damage taken at rank 6.