279 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

So Bioware really loves their dialogue wheel. I get it. The dialogue wheel isn't going anywhere, and I don't really care. What does bother me is that for some reason I can't fathom Bioware won't make the paraphrasing aspect of the wheel optional.

Now I can understand being dismissive when players are asking for features that would be ludicrously difficult to program in, such as a cake baking mini-game or pregnancy shenanigans--but would it really be that difficult to show what the player is going to say when you mouse over the option? That way the players who want to be surprised by what their character says can still have that experience by default, and everyone else can avoid having their character say something completely unintended and be forced to reload a previous save.

Though I wouldn't mind a cake baking mini-game or pregnancy shenanigans. 

[thats1evildude]

A cake baking mini-game? Really? What could you get from the experience of baking cakes in a video game that you couldn't get in RL?  And why would you want to shoehorn that into an RPG?

YOUR IDEA IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[Chiramu]

Para-phrasing is helpful, if only they wrote a correct statement to sum up the line being spoken. Like when you choose a statement with the intent of making a sarcastic remark and your character comes off extremely hostile...That's not right, please make the para-phrasing help us understand what is being said.
Maybe they could add little notes next to some statements so we know when there is an overly hostile remark. It is extremely weird talking and saying the line in your head, then the NPC you're talking to takes your statement as an extremely aggressive attack. That leaves me speechless when I play Dragon Age.
It's very weird is all I can say.

Other than that, there's nothing wrong with it, I think it's down to the actors and writers doing the lines and the voice director instructing the actors how to respond to the lines which is the problem. It needs to be clearer for everyone.

Modifié par Chiramu, 04 mars 2013 - 04:06 .

[Wolfva2]

I'm guessing they don't want to spend the time and money to basically write the same dialogue twice. Sure, they could do it. But Bioware is a company, and for profit companies exist for one and one reason alone: To make money. They'll spend as much as they feel they have to to keep enough people happy to bring in even more money.

[Goneaviking]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution showed you what you were about to say when you hovered your cursor over the paraphrased option, so we know it's doable.

[Blazomancer]

I agree with you Everwarden on this. But I'd much appreciate it if it were a toggle in the options so that everyone can have it their way.

Wolfva2 wrote...
I'm guessing they don't want to spend the time and money to basically write the same dialogue twice. Sure, they could do it. But Bioware is a company, and for profit companies exist for one and one reason alone: To make money. They'll spend as much as they feel they have to to keep enough people happy to bring in even more money.

Umm, they don't really have to write any more dialogues. I'm guessing what the OP meant was that each paraphrase can be used as a mouseover for showing the subtitles that you are going to see after clicking on it anyway.

[Twisted Path]

I think the answer given in the past is that it wouldn't look good or something. Which is silly. I'd much rather have a crowded and clunky conversation interface then have to reload the game over and over because the player character keeps saying stuff I did not intend for them to say.

[Rawgrim]

thats1evildude wrote...

A cake baking mini-game? Really? What could you get from the experience of baking cakes in a video game that you couldn't get in RL?  And why would you want to shoehorn that into an RPG?

YOUR IDEA IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!

In Ultima 7, one of the best rpgs ever made, you could actually bake bread or a cake if you wished.

[Absafraginlootly]

Twisted Path wrote...

I think the answer given in the past is that it wouldn't look good or something. Which is silly. I'd much rather have a crowded and clunky conversation interface then have to reload the game over and over because the player character keeps saying stuff I did not intend for them to say.

Indeed. They also said people will get bored if they have to read each line then listen to it spoken a loud, The Witcher had quite alot of dialogue choices where what was written was repeated verbatum and it never bothered me, but if its a toggle or only a scroll over thing then it can't bore other people either. 

There are times where I would really like to see what I'm actually going to say, or atleast part of what 
I'm actually going to say. I'd also like the conversation icons to reflect what emotion a line is going to be acted with, not what personality it will lock you into (there were some witty icon choices which really should of had a anrgy or sad icon), but thats a whole other topic. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Rawgrim wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

A cake baking mini-game? Really? What could you get from the experience of baking cakes in a video game that you couldn't get in RL?  And why would you want to shoehorn that into an RPG?

YOUR IDEA IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!

In Ultima 7, one of the best rpgs ever made, you could actually bake bread or a cake if you wished.

Also shear ship, spin the wool into thread, put the thread on a loom to weave cloth, then cut the cloth into bandages.

Anyway.

They're not doing full sentences. They've said they tried a few options to work it in and didn't come up with a method they liked.

Plus, putting in mouse-overs would only work for the PC's first line. Apparently there will still be non-selected follow-through dialogue (eg. player chooses PC's first (paraphrased) line, NPC replies, auto-dialogue PC reply...), so mouse-overs wouldn't solve that.

[Ulathar]

Blazomancer wrote...
each paraphrase can be used as a mouseover for showing the subtitles that you are going to see after clicking on it anyway.

Yes, that might be possible and as you said with the subtitles the actual text would already be available in the game. I'd really like this option, tbh.

[TheBlackAdder13]

I'm guessing they don't want to spend the time and money to basically write the same dialogue twice. Sure, they could do it. But Bioware is a company, and for profit companies exist for one and one reason alone: To make money. They'll spend as much as they feel they have to to keep enough people happy to bring in even more money.

This makes absolutely no sense. They've already written the complete dialogue for the voice actors to record. If anything, doing the paraphrases is writing the dialogue twice. There's no reason they can't just put the full lines that they already wrote on the dialogue wheel and it wouldn't cost them anything.

I found it much harder to RP in DA 2 than in DA:O on account of the paraphrases. Just having paraphrases creates a system where you predominantly end up selecting your response by the tone rather than by the content of what's actually said (since you don't know the full content), which really bothers me.

Para-phrasing is helpful, if only they wrote a correct statement to sum up the line being spoken. Like when you choose a statement with the intent of making a sarcastic remark and your character comes off extremely hostile...That's not right, please make the para-phrasing help us understand what is being said.
Maybe they could add little notes next to some statements so we know when there is an overly hostile remark. It is extremely weird talking and saying the line in your head, then the NPC you're talking to takes your statement as an extremely aggressive attack. That leaves me speechless when I play Dragon Age.
It's very weird is all I can say.

The tone option gets rid of this confusion, no? They can, and should, still have the tones with the full dialogue options. That way you know EXACTLY what is being said and how it is delivered.

And yes, I realize some dialogue options will have more than one back and forth with the PC and NPC but I don't think that's an issue because the complete dialogue should reflect the spirit, topic and intent of your initial dialogue selection, just as it does with paraphrases. So you knowingly select the first full thing your PC says but the rest of the dialogue is obviously consistent.

It actually really bothers me they won't even consider adding the full text. I don't think I've heard any compelling reason not to from the devs.

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 04 mars 2013 - 10:40 .

[Fast Jimmy]

This was a big suggestion after DE:HR came out, which did exactly what the OP is referencing, more or less.

If you look at the options, they are all paraphrased. If you hover over them, it shows the longer, full statement. It didn't include any back-and-forth options, but the hover over gave you nearly three or four sentences, giving you more than enough information about what was going to be said.

Gaider came in and pretty much shot it down. He said they aren't doing it, have no interest in doing it and it will not be happening in DA3. He said they are working on making the paraphrases much clearer in the future, but that there would be no "hover over and see full text" option. Whether this is because they are against showing the player the word-for-word statement of what the PC is actually going to say or there is some limitation in the game about the dialogue wheel (or, perhaps, a limitation in the patent of the dialogue wheel that EA owns that would prevent this), no one can say for sure.

But we have been told numerous times and in no uncertain terms - paraphrases are here to stay, and no hover over full dialogue will be available. Sad times.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Even though this has been requested often, BW just won't do it for no reason at all. Complete sentences are easy to show, because for localization purposes the full text is already available.

[Wulfram]

If the full line was available via mouse-over, then everyone would do it, and then they'd space bar through the dialogue because it's really boring to watch people act out stuff you've just read.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I don't see how that is a problem. It certainly isn't more of a problem than being surprised by what your own character says. Or feeling like you cannot make a decision, since you are picking context (the tone alone) and get little say in the content (since the paraphrases can be misleading).

[eroeru]

Wulfram wrote...

If the full line was available via mouse-over, then everyone would do it, and then they'd space bar through the dialogue because it's really boring to watch people act out stuff you've just read.

No it isn't.

Countless games' success counter your biased opinion.

[eroeru]

Chiramu wrote...

Other than that, there's nothing wrong with it, I think it's down to the actors and writers doing the lines and the voice director instructing the actors how to respond to the lines which is the problem. It needs to be clearer for everyone.

But it still won't be clear enough for many.
...There's loads wrong with paraphrase-only dialogue in many an opinion, you should accept these.

[Blazomancer]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Gaider came in and pretty much shot it down. He said they aren't doing it, have no interest in doing it and it will not be happening in DA3. He said they are working on making the paraphrases much clearer in the future, but that there would be no "hover over and see full text" option. Whether this is because they are against showing the player the word-for-word statement of what the PC is actually going to say or there is some limitation in the game about the dialogue wheel (or, perhaps, a limitation in the patent of the dialogue wheel that EA owns that would prevent this), no one can say for sure.

But we have been told numerous times and in no uncertain terms - paraphrases are here to stay, and no hover over full dialogue will be available. Sad times.

Didn't know about it. That's sad indeed. I hope they at least make the paraphrases much clearer in general this time around.

[Mykel54]

I fully support this idea, i think it is one of things that hold back the roleplaying experience in bioware games.

We have games when paraphrases aren´t used, like the witcher 2, and i don´t think it is boring to see what Geralt is going to say, before you pick it. In fact, i think it is a very important of what roleplaying is about.

Think about it. How often in DA2 do you pick an option because it is agressive/funny/diplomatic, and not because of what the paraphrase says? The paraphrases are often misleading, because they always surprise you. Specially on your first playthrough, where you have no idea what is going to happen next, having the player character say something that you didn´t want to.

For example, let´s imagine that my Hawke doesn´t like the qunari. Now imagine he has an option which the paragraph reads "Qunari oppresion is wrong". When you pick it, Hawke says: "The chantry is right, the qunari are oppresors and must be eliminated". So the idea is the same, that the qunari are bad, but the phrase also added the fact that his hawke is also a chantry supporter. Which is wrong, because maybe this hawke is actually a mage and also hates the chantry, or simply he doesn´t like how the chantry do things.

In short, by using the paraphrase, the player is likely to find the protagonist saying things he didn´t want, assuming the reason behind his choices. The opinion may be the same, but the motivation behind stating that opinion may be different.

Without a paraphrase, the player can clearly see what Hawke is going to say, and pick accordingly. Maybe there is no option that fits 100% the character you are roleplaying, that´s a pity, but at least the player is warned beforehand, and he can pick whatever choice he thinks makes most sense in that context.

For the people who don´t care about roleplaying, they don´t really care about this thing. I have yet to see people say "the witcher 2 was boring, i always knew what Geralt was going to say". The peolpe who find dialogue boring, are those who skip it anyway, paraphrases or not.

Using the actual words reduce resources spent (because the first subtitle line coul be displayed on the wheel, without having to make up good and non confusing paraphrasing) and makes the game much clearer to those who wish to roleplay in the game, as much as it is possible on a videogame.

[Darth Death]

The dialogue wheel is pretty explicit when capturing the overall mood of a conversation. As you may already know, the top option exhibits a "good" response while the middle & bottom options consist of "neutral" & "rude" responses. Even if you're unaware the exact wording of a response, at least from a simplistic standpoint, you'll know the mood of the conversation while navigating the dialogue wheel. Picked a diplomatic option? Expect a diplomatic answer.

Modifié par Darth Death, 04 mars 2013 - 03:08 .

[Fast Jimmy]

For what it's worth? TW2 does use paraphrases as well.

[David Gaider]

There's no reason to continue with this, as it's not a suggestion that will be taken. The answer is sorry, but no-- there will be no hover text that displays the full line. I know some have an idea in their head as to what it will do, and compare it to other games that did something similar (even if those games didn't work the same as DA), but we looked long and hard at this option and in the end didn't agree with the supposition behind it. I doubt the people this would be meant to please would actually be made happy by it because it doesn't go far enough-- that can't go for every single person, of course, as tastes vary, but overall we feel this would be more problem than it's worth.

I gave a longer response on this several times in the past, so I won't do it again. I'd appreciate it if someone wants to bring up "Gaider said this" they actually dig up the response rather than offer some incomplete and incorrect interpretation of whatever it was I said.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 mars 2013 - 03:12 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Darth Death wrote...

The dialogue wheel is pretty explicit when capturing the overall mood of a conversation. As you may already know, the top option exhibits a "good" response while the middle & bottom options consist of "neutral" & "rude" responses. Even if you're unaware the exact wording of a response, at least from a simplistic standpoint, you'll know the mood of the conversation while navigating the dialogue wheel. Picked a diplomatic option? Expect a diplomatic answer.

Except instead, it is "pick a diplomatic response, hear a religious answer." Religion and diplomatic are not tied together. If anything, it is diplomatic to NEVER mention religion. And it would make sense to be angry, aggressive and religious, since that describes many people who most loudly proclaim their religion. 

Life isn't boiled down into three types of statements. Having a dialogue system that does so is a little restricting. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 mars 2013 - 03:15 .