279 réponses à ce sujet

[Wyvernblade]

The DA3 system sounds cool. In DA2, I did really enjoy the dominant tone and found it to be a neat system I hadn't seen before.

[Lenimph]

I really disagree with the tone tracking being taken out. If you're going to have a voiced character you're going to need to have spots with auto dialog. That's just a given. Party banter especially is my biggest concern here.

I personally would rather have a character with auto dialog that reflects my past choices then one that doesn't. This is one of those things that set Hawke on a higher level then Shepard in terms of customization and Hawke feeling like she responded from player input. I can understand removing it from dedicated dialog scenes but places (again like party banter) where the player wont have input really concerns me.

This is one of those things DA2 did right writing/tech wise, and I will be heavily disappointed if this decision remains as Gaider has said. 

The reaction wheel (aka ME interrupts) is not the way to go. 

Modifié par Lenimph, 07 mars 2013 - 08:46 .

[Zjarcal]

I don't like dominant tones being removed completely either.

I loved how they worked with party banter in particular, it was so much fun replaying MotA and Legacy with my different characters and getting those different banter lines.

The dominant tone thing only bothered me in particular sections where not having control of my response was really jarring due to the nature of the situation, perfect example being delivering the news of someone dying. There was no need to remove dominant tones just for that though, they simply should've given the player a choice in situations that can be considered "delicate".

[wright1978]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I agree. I'm curious how they will switch between the tone, action and reaction wheels in a way that won't seem crazy. But this is all very exciting. This is beyond my biggest expectations for how they would try and improve the wheel and the voiced PC. This level of control, if it lives up to the concepts outlined above, is truly a large, but hugely rewarding type of task.

Very excited by the sounds of this too.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I agree. I'm curious how they will switch between the tone, action and reaction wheels in a way that won't seem crazy.

Hopefully the process will be transparent enough that players will know what sort of choice they are making.

[Sir George Parr]

Lenimph wrote...

I really disagree with the tone tracking being taken out. If you're going to have a voiced character you're going to need to have spots with auto dialog. That's just a given. Party banter especially is my biggest concern here.

I personally would rather have a character with auto dialog that reflects my past choices then one that doesn't. This is one of those things that set Hawke on a higher level then Shepard in terms of customization and Hawke feeling like she responded from player input. I can understand removing it from dedicated dialog scenes but places (again like party banter) where the player wont have input really concerns me.

This is one of those things DA2 did right writing/tech wise, and I will be heavily disappointed if this decision remains as Gaider has said. 

The reaction wheel (aka ME interrupts) is not the way to go. 

I do agree on that point. That Hawke was a far more interesting character because of this particular means of customization.Would have hoped for the system to have being refined than taken out of the picture completely.Just to allow players the choice to react differently when it called for it, i would have hoped would have being enough.So it will be interesting to see what happens.

Modifié par XM-417, 09 mars 2013 - 11:26 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

XM-417 wrote...

Just to allow players the choice to react differently when it called for it,

Player control is always called for.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well this is strange. The whole reception of this news seems to have shifted from being ecstatic to being concerned over the change.

Odd.

[eroeru]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Well this is strange. The whole
reception of this news seems to have shifted from being ecstatic to
being concerned over the change.

Odd.

"That's just a few hipster comments" is how I'm going to diss them.

No, really, looking at the ratio, and the game's need to break ground or tie together, this solution is the very least devs can do.

Those saying DA2 systems should stay intact are either trolling or quite ignorant of the whole feedback and image thing in relation to Origins...

Modifié par eroeru, 10 mars 2013 - 08:32 .

[Absafraginlootly]

David Gaider wrote...

Ghost43 wrote...
I'm not sure I understand-- is there a tone wheel seperate from the dialogue choices?

No, it's not separate. We term the dialogue wheel which has tone choices to be the "tone wheel" and the dialogue wheel which has action choices to be the "action wheel". In the former your choices are mainly roleplaying... you're deciding how to say something, or what topic to address, but you're not doing anything. In the latter your choices are what to do about something (or expressing an opinion which doesn't involve tone).

In DA2, options on the choice wheel had a single paraphrase but three different spoken lines which varied based on the player character's dominant tone. As I mentioned previously, this made it difficult to come up with a paraphrase for all three (aside from being fairly expensive, wordcount-wise). While the answer could have been to paraphrase each line separately, in the end we decided the content was better used elsewhere.

In DA3, we are adding the "reaction wheel" to the previous two categories. This covers any situation where an emotional response is called for, where the three tones don't cover the needed territory (sadness, shock, rage... or just being stoic if one prefers), but we haven't shown it yet nor will I discuss it much.

But those are the three basic dialogue wheels with which we work, and the terms are specific to us writers. They're not ones you need to use. From the perspective of the player, one dialogue wheel is the same as any other.

This post makes me so happy I look like my avatar <3

[TheButterflyEffect]

My only problem was that the DA team totally freaking sucks at paraphrasing. For one, the Mass Effect guys actually surpassed them in this area.

Honestly, I can't count the number of lines in DA2 where the paraphrasing is completely and entirely different from what the character actually says. So many times I had to reload because the paraphrasing did NOT correctly indicate what the hell they were going to say, and they said something I didn't want them to.

VERY aggravating. I disapprove.

[Loc'n'lol]

One thing I really dislike is paraphrasing for the sake of paraphrasing...
I mean if the spoken line is 3 words, then just write down those words on the wheel, not something entirely different...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Filament wrote...

Too much control can be unnecessary and overwhelming. See QWOP.

You're conflating player control with player skill.  QWOP requires incredibly precise inputs.

Now, imagine QWOP with the same level of control, but make the game pausable to figure out what you want to do next, and offer better feedback so the player can tell exactly what it is he's doing or will need to do soon.

Control isn't bad.  Control is never bad.  But QWOP seems to have been made specifically to make control look bad by offering total control in the absence of the tools necessary to make that control valuable.  QWOP is, effectively, a straw man.

[Lenimph]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

My only problem was that the DA team totally freaking sucks at paraphrasing. For one, the Mass Effect guys actually surpassed them in this area.

Can't tell if serious... 

[Lenimph]

eroeru wrote...



"That's just a few hipster comments" is how I'm going to diss them.

No, really, looking at the ratio, and the game's need to break ground or tie together, this solution is the very least devs can do.

Those saying DA2 systems should stay intact are either trolling or quite ignorant of the whole feedback and image thing in relation to Origins...

Sorry to break it to you but everyone on the BSN is part of the vocal minority and therefore a hipster. Deal with it. 

Also again I'm concerned about spots where we won't have player input, because there will be those places, and if you prefer getting filler lines over ones that were recognized by your own player input just because you dont want to recognize that DA2 actually did do something right is your loss but I wanted to get out my thoughts.   Most of us who objected didn't say DA2's system was perfect but the tracking element in itself did offer something more then the Shepard 2.0 they seem to be presenting to the table.  (Reaction wheel sounds like Paragon/Renegade interrupts to me and I sure hope I am wrong on that instinct)

Modifié par Lenimph, 11 mars 2013 - 07:25 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lenimph wrote...

Also again I'm concerned about spots where we won't have player input, because there will be those places, and if you prefer getting filler lines over ones that were recognized by your own player input just because you dont want to recognize that DA2 actually did do something right is your loss but I wanted to get out my thoughts.

The lines won't be filler.  They'll perform exactly the same function in conversation as before.  Just now they'll be less likely to be character breaknig.

(Reaction wheel sounds like Paragon/Renegade interrupts to me and I sure hope I am wrong on that instinct)

David was not saying that there will be some new and different type of interface, or that the inputs will look different to the player at all.  He's describing a different category of wheel event - we already had more than one category in DA2, but they weren't clearly demarcated.  Adding a third doesn't require ME2-style quicktime events, or anything at all different (from a player input standpoint) than what we saw in DA2.

Now I understand why BioWare tends not to tell us these things in the absence of concrete demonstrations of exactly what's being described - because forumites jump wildly to conclusions and then gripe about them.

[nightscrawl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Now I understand why BioWare tends not to tell us these things in the absence of concrete demonstrations of exactly what's being described - because forumites jump wildly to conclusions and then gripe about them.

Yes, I think the best thing for this particular mechanic will be to see an actual demo video, preferably one at a con where a dev is playing and narrating at the same time.

It seems that some people are conflating "removing the dominant tone" with sounding like a tranquil, which is not the case. Most of the time in everyday conversation you speak in a neutral tone: "I'm going for a walk," "What do you feel like eating?," "I saw a weird story on the news the other day," and so on. Really, the best "neutral" tone (as far as mirroring real life) in DA2 was, for the most part, the diplomatic tone, because you weren't being snarky about something, neither were you being aggressive; the departure came where your diplomatic Hawke was supportive or helpful. Most of the investigates in DA2 were done in a neutral tone, which when followed by an aggressive response, was rather jarring I thought. Here I am having a conversation with someone and I suddenly lash out at them angrily. While I did like the dominant tone for DA2, I felt this was one of its flaws.

It is during exceptional moments where you will want to be helpful, humorous, or aggressive, and I'm thinking that the appropriate "tone choice" will be provided at the right time. Of course, the drawback of the "reaction wheel" is that it will likely not be available for every dialog, which then means that the writers will have predetermined that we should have some sort of reaction to a given scene and so the options are provided for us. What if we have no reaction? What if we want a reaction for some other scene but aren't allowed one? And so forth.

Again though, some live examples of this are required to understand it fully, and perhaps that won't even be possible until we play the game ourselves.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 11 mars 2013 - 12:52 .

[nightscrawl]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

One thing I really dislike is paraphrasing for the sake of paraphrasing...
I mean if the spoken line is 3 words, then just write down those words on the wheel, not something entirely different...

While I do agree with you, they had to do this in DA2 because of the use of the dominant tone for Hawke. If the paraphrase is "No," a diplomatic Hawke might say "I don't think that's such a good idea," a snarky Hawke will say "Yeah, like that's gonna happen," and an aggressive Hawke will say "Sod off."

If there is no dominant tone in DA3, this will be much less of an issue, and we likely will see a simple response of "No" where your character actually says "No." To me, this can only be an improvement.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 11 mars 2013 - 01:00 .

[Lenimph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The lines won't be filler.  They'll perform exactly the same function in conversation as before.  Just now they'll be less likely to be character breaknig.

Is no one reading my posts? There are lines that every main character will have that the player will have no input on outside of dedicated conversations because we have a voiced player character(party dialog for example again). Now that they got rid of tracking dominant personalities (also known as your own choices) every character will say the exact same lines instead of reflecting the personality/choice. Those are the "filler" lines.

[Masha Potato]

eroeru wrote...

Those saying DA2 systems should stay intact are either trolling or quite ignorant of the whole feedback and image thing in relation to Origins...

Or they might just have a different opinion on the subject?

[Fast Jimmy]

Lenimph wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The lines won't be filler.  They'll perform exactly the same function in conversation as before.  Just now they'll be less likely to be character breaknig.

Is no one reading my posts? There are lines that every main character will have that the player will have no input on outside of dedicated conversations because we have a voiced player character(party dialog for example again). Now that they got rid of tracking dominant personalities (also known as your own choices) every character will say the exact same lines instead of reflecting the personality/choice. Those are the "filler" lines.

That is not what Gaider said. 

He said there would be no personality tracking. He also said that in DA2, the paraphrasing was left neutral on the wheel, since it could result in many different responses based on your dominant tone. He went on to say that the paraphrase for the line being selected would be explicity the paraphrase for the line you are selecting, with no generic paraphrase for the three different responses that it could generate based on your dominant tone. 

We don't know what that will mean exactly until we see the game, but I see it as more along the lines of instead of picking a line for you automatically based on your dominant tone, the game will have you pick your response out of three or more options where the paraphrase will be explicit as to the nature of that response.

Less Auto-Dialgoue. More control over what is being said. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 11 mars 2013 - 03:12 .