279 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David Gaider wrote...

There's no reason to continue with this, as it's not a suggestion that will be taken. The answer is sorry, but no-- there will be no hover text that displays the full line. I know some have an idea in their head as to what it will do, and compare it to other games that did something similar (even if those games didn't work the same as DA), but we looked long and hard at this option and in the end didn't agree with the supposition behind it. I doubt the people this would be meant to please would actually be made happy by it because it doesn't go far enough-- that can't go for every single person, of course, as tastes vary, but overall we feel this would be more problem than it's worth.

I gave a longer response on this several times in the past, so I won't do it again. I'd appreciate it if someone wants to bring up "Gaider said this" they actually dig up the response rather than offer some incomplete and incorrect interpretation of whatever it was I said.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if it actually worked as advertised. It doesn't. The problem is the paraphasing doesn't match up with what's being displayed on the wheel. It's the same issue people had with it in Mass Effect. Either way, it doesn't work as well as the previous set up that was in Origins. What is gained by paraphrasing each line for the player?

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 04 mars 2013 - 03:55 .

[Joah]

I don't see why Bioware has such a big problem with this. I mean if you have captions set on the line pops up right after you choose the paraphrase anyway, why couldn't they just have that line pop up in the same place when you highlight the paraphrased line before you choose it.

[eroeru]

I don't see why this thread must be brought up so much, and why people, proponents or not would still reply. It just tears up old scars and biased opinions (including mine), to be very honest.

So... sorry for my reply I guess.

Modifié par eroeru, 04 mars 2013 - 03:40 .

[Fast Jimmy]

If only there was a way for Bioware employees to use this site to make information about these types of decisions widely known and easily accessible so that people would know without having to post a thread about it.

What a world that could be... where Bioware could control the BSN...

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If only there was a way for Bioware employees to use this site to make information about these types of decisions widely known and easily accessible so that people would know without having to post a thread about it.

What a world that could be... where Bioware could control the BSN...

Are you high?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If only there was a way for Bioware employees to use this site to make information about these types of decisions widely known and easily accessible so that people would know without having to post a thread about it.

What a world that could be... where Bioware could control the BSN...

Or people could accept that Bioware is not under any obligation to explain their decisions and people can stop beating the dead horse.   But, no, let's make this Bioware's fault.

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

There's no reason to continue with this, as it's not a suggestion that will be taken. The answer is sorry, but no-- there will be no hover text that displays the full line. I know some have an idea in their head as to what it will do, and compare it to other games that did something similar (even if those games didn't work the same as DA), but we looked long and hard at this option and in the end didn't agree with the supposition behind it. I doubt the people this would be meant to please would actually be made happy by it because it doesn't go far enough-- that can't go for every single person, of course, as tastes vary, but overall we feel this would be more problem than it's worth.

I gave a longer response on this several times in the past, so I won't do it again. I'd appreciate it if someone wants to bring up "Gaider said this" they actually dig up the response rather than offer some incomplete and incorrect interpretation of whatever it was I said.

I'd be pleased by it, but I guess I'm not one of the people this is meant to please. Silly consumer me.

[Kidd]

Chiramu wrote...

Para-phrasing is helpful, if only they wrote a correct statement to sum up the line being spoken.

I don't remember it being bad in DA2, there's been no moments of "I understand" turning into "There was a boy back on Earth" in this franchise to me, at least.

Sure, a few sarcastic instances may have been slightly more hostile in the actual line than in the paraphrase, but in those cases it always made sense to me at least. Who's snarky when somebody is grieving the death of their newly passed son right in front of them? Somebody who makes terrible comments. So that's why you got a terrible comment, etc. What else could possibly be said at that time in such a tone, and how did the paraphrases make it out to be a totally fine and non-offensive line?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If only there was a way for Bioware employees to use this site to make information about these types of decisions widely known and easily accessible so that people would know without having to post a thread about it.

What a world that could be... where Bioware could control the BSN...

We're what, some 30 regulars or so up here in the DA3 board? The games sell for millions of copies. I really, really don't think our votes could represent the mass market out there.

[eroeru]

^ Oh dammit, why do we always have to talk about the mass market - *you* don't have anything to say then, by your own logic. You're just a puny speck.

That's a bad way to think me thinks. No-one's trying to "represent the mass market" (at present case there are many though who'd like to see this thread left rot). What are you trying to achieve with any of your answers other than to make the place more volatile?

[Adanu]

David Gaider wrote...

There's no reason to continue with this, as it's not a suggestion that will be taken. The answer is sorry, but no-- there will be no hover text that displays the full line. I know some have an idea in their head as to what it will do, and compare it to other games that did something similar (even if those games didn't work the same as DA), but we looked long and hard at this option and in the end didn't agree with the supposition behind it. I doubt the people this would be meant to please would actually be made happy by it because it doesn't go far enough-- that can't go for every single person, of course, as tastes vary, but overall we feel this would be more problem than it's worth.

I gave a longer response on this several times in the past, so I won't do it again. I'd appreciate it if someone wants to bring up "Gaider said this" they actually dig up the response rather than offer some incomplete and incorrect interpretation of whatever it was I said.

If you actually manage by some miracle make the paraphrasing give a decent indication of intent as WELL as delivery this time, I got no problem with this.

Your studios track record with said concepts is terrible to date, however.

[Everwarden]

David Gaider wrote...
There's no reason to continue with this, as it's not a suggestion that will be taken. The answer is sorry, but no-- there will be no hover text that displays the full line. 

So is that a no to the cake baking minigame as well?

I doubt the people this would be meant to please would actually be made happy by it because it doesn't go far enough

I don't understand this statement. Some people have a problem with paraphrasing, and showing what is actually about to be said would fix said problem. How could completely removing the problem not go far enough? Is your point that if the problem is removed people will just find other things to whine about? 

[Fast Jimmy]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If only there was a way for Bioware employees to use this site to make information about these types of decisions widely known and easily accessible so that people would know without having to post a thread about it.

What a world that could be... where Bioware could control the BSN...

We're what, some 30 regulars or so up here in the DA3 board? The games sell for millions of copies. I really, really don't think our votes could represent the mass market out there.

You misunderstand. It is precisely because there are only a few dozen or so who are regulars on the boards and would actually know that Gaider/Bioware has talked about and rejected the idea before that I say this.

Anyone who is either new or a non-regular would have zero way of knowing this information aside from doing a forum search for "paraphrases." I believe this discussion happened last in the DA2 forums, so if they wanted to find it, they would need to search all the forum sub-categories, which could bring up threads about it in both ME and DA, possibly elsewhere such as Off-Topic. This would result in the new person doing considerable research into the concept... or they could just post a new thread and get a fairly quick response. Which do you think is more likely?

I was implying that if discussions of past decisions by devs could be categorized or marked for easy reference, the burden wouldn't be on them to come into every thread about it that pops up and feel they have to explain or defend themselves. The fact that every single one of the Sticked Threads in this forum were fan created, not dev, would seem to suggest that this is not happening. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 mars 2013 - 06:01 .

[AlanC9]

Something always confused me about this issue. How many times does it actually happen that knowing the exact lines would change which response you'd select? I can't think of a single time, myself, but I'm a terrible example since I only had about four incidents in the whole ME series where Shepard didn't say pretty much what I expected her to say.

Anyone got some examples for me?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 mars 2013 - 06:04 .

[Everwarden]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
We're what, some 30 regulars or so up here in the DA3 board? The games sell for millions of copies. I really, really don't think our votes could represent the mass market out there.

No one person speaks for the mass market. That doesn't mean every post with legitimate criticism should be ignored. 

[Lenimph]

I'm glad Gaider said no to this option, because I can only think of a very few lines where the paraphrasing didn't match up to what Hawke said. It's nearly not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

Unlike the Mass Effect team (especially in the first game) I think the DA team does paraphrasing very well.

[David Gaider]

Everwarden wrote...
I don't understand this statement. Some people have a problem with paraphrasing, and showing what is actually about to be said would fix said problem. How could completely removing the problem not go far enough? Is your point that if the problem is removed people will just find other things to whine about?

Not every design issue is solvable by a toggle-- it always sounds like the best idea (everyone's happy!) but just forces us to deal with the consequences of both options rather than just one, as valid options must be equally supported.

In this case, the existence of player VO means the lines are written differently. So knowing the actual text of the line may give you more insight, but would probably fall down just about as often as paraphrases (albeit in different ways). There will always be places where options don't do what you think they will-- even in Origins, with its lack of VO, had this... and if you think it didn't and wasn't occasionally complained about, you're fooling yourselves.

The origin of the request (for many people, at least) seems to stem from the nuance of not being able to imagine a line spoken as they wish and less from a factual difference in the line versus the paraphrase. While the latter can be fixed with seeing the full line, the former cannot, and thus for many people is effort spent to not really address their base issue.

It also, quite frankly, isn't something we feel works very well. We're leery about putting in an option that many people will opt for without realizing the full implication ("More information on the dialogue? Hell, yes! I love dialogue!"). They wouldn't come and complain that they don't like the hover text, they'd complain that the dialogue seems slow or repetitive. Sylvius likes to counter this by saying we shouldn't protect players from themselves, but that is indeed exactly our job as designers. Not everyone is as aware of every nuance of the system as the people who come here to these forums-- actually, very far from everyone indeed.

If someone disagrees with that, it's fine. We investigated it, tried it out ourselves (various versions, in fact) and in the end put it aside. I know some people will categorize this as "you aren't listening", but we did listen and looked into it thoroughly and decided it wasn't what we wanted or what we thought could be made to work as an option. That's really the best we can do.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 mars 2013 - 06:12 .

[Everwarden]

Jayne126 wrote...
This strikes me just as stubbornness.

I get the same impression.

Maybe it's just me, but recently I've gotten the impression that EA and Bioware specifically have decided that their customers are a bunch of gibbering, unpleasable retards who won't like anything they make--so why bother listening to them? 

Of course it's entirely possible I'm getting that impression because of my own bias. 

[David Gaider]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I was implying that if discussions of past decisions by devs could be categorized or marked for easy reference, the burden wouldn't be on them to come into every thread about it that pops up and feel they have to explain or defend themselves. The fact that every single one of the Sticked Threads in this forum were fan created, not dev, would seem to suggest that this is not happening. 

These forums don't really exist to disseminate information on a game-- particularly one that hasn't been revealed, yet. I imagine there will some kind of more comprehensive info here once the reveal happens, but that's up to the community team to put together.

My only beef is when someone says "Gaider said this" but neither offers a direct quote or a link. People like to take that as gospel, and then refer to it later as if it was something I said rather than a (partial) interpretation of what I said. If someone wants to make a "collected quotes" thread, they're free to do so... but lacking access to that shouldn't mean that someone goes around ascribing statements to me (or any developer) which we haven't made.

[Lenimph]

David Gaider wrote...


In this case, the existence of player VO means the lines are written differently. So knowing the actual text of the line may give you more insight, but would probably fall down just about as often as paraphrases (albeit in different ways). There will always be places where options don't do what you think they will-- even in Origins, with its lack of VO, had this... and if you think it didn't and wasn't occasionally complained about, you're fooling yourselves.

I can an imagine this would be most noticeable a problem with a sarcastic character; taking out the surprise of their punchline or deliverying it in a way that doesn't sit with the player.

[Everwarden]

David Gaider wrote...
I know some people will categorize this as "you aren't listening", but we did listen and looked into it thoroughly and decided it wasn't what we wanted or what we thought could be made to work as an option. That's really the best we can do.

That is a surprisingly fair and reasonable response to my criticism. 

[David Gaider]

Everwarden wrote...
Maybe it's just me, but recently I've gotten the impression that EA and Bioware specifically have decided that their customers are a bunch of gibbering, unpleasable retards who won't like anything they make--so why bother listening to them?

I appreciate the fact this comes directly after my response (particularly the last paragraph).

Of course it's entirely possible I'm getting that impression because of my own bias.

It's a stretch, but just maybe.

[Everwarden]

David Gaider wrote...
I appreciate the fact this comes directly after my response (particularly the last paragraph).

I hadn't read your post first. Whoops, now I feel silly. 

Sorry about that. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 04 mars 2013 - 06:22 .

[John Epler]

Everwarden wrote...

Jayne126 wrote...
This strikes me just as stubbornness.

I get the same impression.

Maybe it's just me, but recently I've gotten the impression that EA and Bioware specifically have decided that their customers are a bunch of gibbering, unpleasable retards who won't like anything they make--so why bother listening to them? 

Of course it's entirely possible I'm getting that impression because of my own bias. 

As a general note, I would avoid using the word 'retard'. There are much better words to use without the serious ableist baggage that comes with that word choice.

Insofar as the rest of it's concerned - it's more that we listen to our customers, but all of that feedback has to be filtered through a bunch of lenses that we can't really make all that public. For example, what makes for a good user experience, what is the best use of resources, what fits our overarching vision the best.

Some things that the forums (and other fans) have brought up are certainly taken much more significantly into consideration - our push towards fewer moments that take the player out of gameplay and more ambient storytelling is definitely at least partially informed by fan feedback, although we certainly learned our own lessons playing games such as Dark Souls, Skyrim, or Dragon's Dogma.