279 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

David Gaider wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I was implying that if discussions of past decisions by devs could be categorized or marked for easy reference, the burden wouldn't be on them to come into every thread about it that pops up and feel they have to explain or defend themselves. The fact that every single one of the Sticked Threads in this forum were fan created, not dev, would seem to suggest that this is not happening. 

These forums don't really exist to disseminate information on a game-- particularly one that hasn't been revealed, yet. I imagine there will some kind of more comprehensive info here once the reveal happens, but that's up to the community team to put together.

My only beef is when someone says "Gaider said this" but neither offers a direct quote or a link. People like to take that as gospel, and then refer to it later as if it was something I said rather than a (partial) interpretation of what I said. If someone wants to make a "collected quotes" thread, they're free to do so... but lacking access to that shouldn't mean that someone goes around ascribing statements to me (or any developer) which we haven't made.

Would it help if everyone started saying "If I remember correctly, X dev said this" before attributing said comments? Because honestly, the chances of any BSN member keeping an accurate and up-to-date list of quotes from the Bioware team for reference for random questions seems far-fetched. 

I said in my first page comment that you had said flat out that the DA team was not going to do this. I went on to say whether it was due to technical limitations or just a desire to not show the same words as what was being spoken wasn't entirely known. I don't really see how what I attributed to you was grossly off the mark, to be honest. 

You say in this thread that you tested it out and it didn't work. We don't know if that means the UI became too cluttered, or if the wheel software crashed, or you just thought people would hate hearing the same spoken words as what they just read. I'd lean towards the last one, but again... it has never been entirely spelled out in this or previous threads what, exactly, didn't "work." 

I thought by attributing some ambiguity to the reason would be more helpful in maintaining the integrity behind the choice, not damaging to your original statements. I apologize for the lack of clarity there. 

[Wulfram]

As an aside, can I suggest that if you're looking for that David Gaider post with Google, try searching for "David Gaider wrote". If you just search for "David Gaider" then you'll get lots of people talking about him and probably find it impossible to find what you're after, but this way you'll get any post by them that's been quoted by someone, and basically every Dev post will be quoted by someone unless it was an "I'm locking the thread" post.

Also, Maclime's "What we know" thread is still useful even if not updated for a bit.
http://social.biowar.../index/14334357

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 mars 2013 - 06:29 .

[Volus Warlord]

David Gaider wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I was implying that if discussions of past decisions by devs could be categorized or marked for easy reference, the burden wouldn't be on them to come into every thread about it that pops up and feel they have to explain or defend themselves. The fact that every single one of the Sticked Threads in this forum were fan created, not dev, would seem to suggest that this is not happening. 

These forums don't really exist to disseminate information on a game-- particularly one that hasn't been revealed, yet. I imagine there will some kind of more comprehensive info here once the reveal happens, but that's up to the community team to put together.

My only beef is when someone says "Gaider said this" but neither offers a direct quote or a link. People like to take that as gospel, and then refer to it later as if it was something I said rather than a (partial) interpretation of what I said. If someone wants to make a "collected quotes" thread, they're free to do so... but lacking access to that shouldn't mean that someone goes around ascribing statements to me (or any developer) which we haven't made.

But twisting your words around makes me feel powerful. 

It's good practice for my Machiavellian side.

[brushyourteeth]

Would the DA team consider publishing a dialogue guide?

[Siegdrifa]

Goneaviking wrote...

Deus Ex: Human Revolution showed you what you were about to say when you hovered your cursor over the paraphrased option, so we know it's doable.

This is what i wanted to suggest, an onmouseover box with the full dialogue... but now that you said Deus EX HR did it, i feel like a complet noob for not seeing it as i had few bad surprise with their paraphrasing ...
You make me feel bad and you should feel bad !

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 04 mars 2013 - 06:33 .

[nightscrawl]

Everwarden wrote...

Now I can understand being dismissive when players are asking for features that would be ludicrously difficult to program in, such as a cake baking mini-game or pregnancy shenanigans--but would it really be that difficult to show what the player is going to say when you mouse over the option?

It's not that it would be difficult. They don't like showing the full line, and they don't think that it works. They've seen all the arguments before, seen the various examples from other games trotted out. Ultimately, this is a rehash of the same thread that has been done dozens of times.

I feel ya, I want the full line too, but it's not going to happen.


[edit]
After reading some of the posts here, I decided to edit the quote to show the entire thing rather than just the relevant bit.

David Gaider wrote...

Okay, last time I will go through this particular argument-- in the future, I'll simply link to this if I must.

Displaying the full text of the line for a voiced PC does not work for us. We investigated it. We tried it out, and discussed it, and ultimately discarded the idea.

I get that some people feel they need all the information in order to make their dialogue choice-- and they feel that seeing the entire line displayed for them will give them that information. It won't. Or, I should say, it will... but it will break down just as often as paraphrases do. Which is to say not very often, but often enough that you remember the situations where that happens. The only way that wouldn't be the case is if we started writing player lines as if the PC weren't voiced, as in Origins.

Also, there are a significant number of people who would be greatly annoyed by reading the entire line and then having it repeated to them verbatim. Your response might be "well, they shouldn't select that option then." But many people will. They'll see it in the list of options and think "oh, that's an option that will give me more information? More information is better!" and they'll select it... and then be annoyed by the result. So we would be trading one group of people who believe this is what they want for another group who would take the option and make it a poorer experience for themselves.

And, yes, that is something we must concern ourselves with. We do not offer, support and test options unless we believe they work as a viable option for the game as we intend it to be played. And you might say to that "well, I think it would make the game better for me", but I'd suggest you're largely wrong in that. It doesn't actually address your base problem, which is with the voiced PC. At best we'd be going out of our way to not really solve your issue while actively making the game worse for others.

This is not to say there aren't things we can do to make the system better other than simply being more rigorous with our use of paraphrases. Not being as anal about not repeating words and phrases between the paraphrase and the actual line(s) is one, but there are others... which we will discuss at a later time. Displaying the full line is not, however, going to be one of those things.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 mars 2013 - 06:41 .

[Everwarden]

John Epler wrote...
As a general note, I would avoid using the word 'retard'. There are much better words to use without the serious ableist baggage that comes with that word choice.

You're right, you're right. Sorry about that, too. It's difficult to remove a word from my pejorative arsenal after so many years, but that doesn't make it okay.

[John Epler]

Jayne126 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I have to wonder what you could learn from Dark Souls, considering it's the total opposite of your games.
From Skyrim? Well, the sense of "exploration" and details of the world, but hopefully nothing else since this game has no real depth.

Dunno 'bout Dragon's Dogma. Waiting for Dark Arisen (maybe).

Dark Souls does an amazing job of giving the player the feeling that everything they're seeing is a connected part of the same area. They have some really good level design ideas - you can go to Blighttown and look up to see the Undead Parish area way up above, or down to Ash Lake and see the roots of the giant trees you see in the Darkroot Garden.

Other than that, they have some very interesting mechanics in that I'd argue the game is tough but never unfair. Your deaths are almost always the result of impatience or poor planning, as opposed to the game just trying to make your life difficult.

Dragon's Dogma offers some good lessons on animations and showing a lot of information via the game, as opposed to through GUIs - when you're fighting a chimera, you know that it can't poison you anymore because the snake head has been completely lopped off, for example.

It's rare that a game comes out that doesn't do something exceptionally well.

[Reznore57]

Well this forum has a big problem , you can't search for X users old posts.
Or I never found the option ...

Anyway I ran into some problem with paraphrase like almost everyone , i think it's more an intent problem than the actual words spoken.
Happens in DA, the witcher too...mostly it's when i think the line is gonna be neutral and my pc end up being a total ass.
I like troll Hawke but sometimes a warning with "really inapropriate lame joke incoming" might have helped.
I tried a agressive Hawke , and i had trouble knowing if my character 's gonna be firm or plain agressive.I remember talking to a mourning Leandra , thinking my pc will tell her to stop crying and move on in a tactful manner and it was just big jerk moment incoming.

Modifié par Reznore57, 04 mars 2013 - 06:44 .

[eroeru]

@jayne
I think they'd learn "niche" "hardcore" and not-dumbed-down nor streamlined games are doable and profitable.

edit: Though sorry for the abundance of "vitriolic" words. (I don't see what's so vitriolic about them though)

Modifié par eroeru, 04 mars 2013 - 09:27 .

[Everwarden]

eroeru wrote...


I think they'd learn "niche" "hardcore" and not-dumbed-down nor streamlined games are doable and profitable.

Though Skyrim was extremely dumbed down. 

[eroeru]

Compared to Morrowind, maybe.

Compared to Modern Warfare, no.

[Dutchess]

Reznore57 wrote...

I remember talking to a mourning Leandra , thinking my pc will tell her to stop crying and move on in a tactful manner and it was just big jerk moment incoming.

Yes, I experienced the same thing in that situation. I thought "Stop it!" meant Hawke would say Leandra should stop blaming herself for sibling's death, instead Hawke has no patience for mourning.<_<

[nightscrawl]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well this forum has a big problem , you can't search for X users old posts.
Or I never found the option ...

Anyway I ran into some problem with paraphrase like almost everyone , i think it's more an intent problem than the actual words spoken.
Happens in DA, the witcher too...mostly it's when i think the line is gonna be neutral and my pc end up being a total ass.
I like troll Hawke but sometimes a warning with "really inapropriate lame joke incoming" might have helped.
I tried a agressive Hawke , and i had trouble knowing if my character 's gonna be firm or plain agressive.I remember talking to a mourning Leandra , thinking my pc will tell her to stop crying and move on in a tactful manner and it was just big jerk moment incoming.

Most forum searches suck to be honest. You can use Google though: "David Gaider" + "search query" site:social.bioware.com. Putting things "in quotes", as well as using '+', or 'AND' can also further refine your search. I use it frequently to find old posts, especially those I have a vague remembrance of and can put in a few words. You are right though, a forum search that lets you search through all Bioware posts would be helpful.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 mars 2013 - 06:58 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

John Epler wrote...

It's rare that a game comes out that doesn't do something exceptionally well.

You're kidding, right? There's plenty of games that come out every year that do nothing exceptionally well.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
The origin of the request (for many people, at least) seems to stem from the nuance of not being able to imagine a line spoken as they wish and less from a factual difference in the line versus the paraphrase. While the latter can be fixed with seeing the full line, the former cannot, and thus for many people is effort spent to not really address their base issue.

Pretty sure I've mentioned it before but one other big reason I don't care for paraphrase systems versus full text is simply that you can't appreciate the full responses or full choices in terms of the writing all at once. For instance, with full text responses visible, you can maybe see the full responses ranging from a nasty insult to a funny joke and actually appreciate the written content without having actually committed to that response in the game. Which makes it easier to appreciate the game's writing in a single playthrough and possibly remember certain moments to take a different dialogue option in any future playthroughs. Then instead of wondering what your PC is going to say, the fun becomes wondering how the NPC would react differently to what you're saying. With paraphrases you can't really appreciate the full spectrum of dialogue choices you have without going through and selecting each one to see what your character actually ends up saying or how they say it. I haven't really seen that done well in any game with paraphrases since the nature of the paraphrases is to sort of obscure the nitty gritty of the dialogue response.

John Epler wrote...

Dark Souls does an amazing job of giving the player the feeling that everything they're seeing is a connected part of the same area. They have some really good level  design ideas - you can go to Blighttown and look up to see the Undead  Parish area way up above, or down to Ash Lake and see the roots of the  giant trees you see in the Darkroot Garden.

That is indeed a great aspect of Dark Souls. Skyrim too for that matter given its a big sandbox open world. But its even more satisfying in Dark Souls when you go through the world and find new shortcuts or new ways how the world is seemlessly connected that you didn't realize existed.

Modifié par Brockololly, 04 mars 2013 - 07:01 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Most forum searches suck to be honest. You can use Google though:"David Gaider" + "search query" site:social.bioware.com. Putting things"in quotes", as well as using '+', or 'AND' can also further refine your search. I use it frequently to find old posts, especially those I have a vague remembrance of and can put in a few words. You are right though, a forum search that lets you search through all Bioware posts would be helpful.

And assuming any random forum goes, regular or not, would know this or think to do it instead of posting a thread that has been asked a million times is, again, far-fetched. Just like it is expected for everyone to know to PM a moderator to report someone as opposed to using the "Report This Post" button.

Or, you know, devs can feel free to keep responding to threads asked a dozen or more times and the BSN keep its reputation of being toxic partially because only a small handful of people know how to properly report abusive behavior. I'm honestly fine either way.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 mars 2013 - 07:09 .

[John Epler]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

John Epler wrote...

It's rare that a game comes out that doesn't do something exceptionally well.

You're kidding, right? There's plenty of games that come out every year that do nothing exceptionally well.

I'd argue that, but let me rephrase to - it's rare that a game comes out where you can't learn at least one lesson, either from things they do exceptionally well or from places where they missed the mark.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And assuming any random forum goes, regular or not, would know this or think to do it instead of posting a thread that has been asked a million times is, again, far-fetched. Just like it is expected for everyone to know to PM a moderator to report someone as opposed to using the "Report This Post" button.

I was actually trying to be helpful with my post =/. I would say that few people, including myself, know how to use Search (Google or otherwise) to its full potential.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

It is much appreciated, don't get me wrong. But as Gaider can attest to - explaining something in as great of detail as you can think of in one post on the BSN is like building an awesome sandcastle on the beach.

Sure, it's cool and great to see now... but give it an afternoon or two and it may as well have never happened.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

It is much appreciated, don't get me wrong. But as Gaider can attest to - explaining something in as great of detail as you can think of in one post on the BSN is like building an awesome sandcastle on the beach.

Sure, it's cool and great to see now... but give it an afternoon or two and it may as well have never happened.

This is my past post about Search, I promise.

With a bit of information like I posted, if a couple of people browsing this thread learned something new and use it to their advantage in the future, then it was successful .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

John Epler wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

John Epler wrote...

It's rare that a game comes out that doesn't do something exceptionally well.

You're kidding, right? There's plenty of games that come out every year that do nothing exceptionally well.

I'd argue that, but let me rephrase to - it's rare that a game comes out where you can't learn at least one lesson, either from things they do exceptionally well or from places where they missed the mark.

I agree.